methods 26kwh Emoli bug build

methods

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Aug 8, 2008
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Santa Cruz CA

The Humble Beginnings. . .


So I hear about this Bug for sale - $1,500 and it has everything ready to go except a battery.
Motor, controller, contactor, wiring, battery rack, EV Registration, -> Everything a guy needs.... Except some juice.

I frantically tear apart every ebike I have to create a battery on the fly - in 2 hours I managed to put together a 66V 30Ah battery and get to San Jose to pick up the car.

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To make a long story short (that I have told before) everything worked great.
Here is the car the first rainy night after I got it home.

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Isn't it amazing that a small flat rate box full of RC batteries can run a full size car at 50mph ?@?
Range at this point is "down town and back"

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I needed a minimum of a 1 hour charger - this will do 18S @ 30A
Charger rides in the car and all you have to do is plug in with an extension cord.

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The motor is just a little guy - rated at 10hp with 30hp burst
Controller is 72V 450A

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Yes - this is how Ghetto my setup was at first - nothing but a cardboard box full of lipo and a taped up charger

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But she is a pretty little thing isn't she? Doesn't weigh anything, even soaking wet

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So long as I dont burn the bug to the ground first - I plan to be doing 90mph rips in no time.

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On to the batteries. . .

-methods
 
* 21S 48P 140Ah pack build (almost done!)<---Jeeesus Methy thats a shit load of lipos mate!!! No more KFF for you that will be a KFA (Kentuck Fried Arm) if you mess those connections :mrgreen:

Sincerely though all the best with bug mate im sure it will be a winner...will we see some tire smoke from this too? hehe

I think the Zombie electric drag car should be your benchmark mate!

[youtube]Ej_jwDpfDBI[/youtube]

Showz them how it should be done! 12 second bug on batteries !!!

KiM

p.s just thought of something, you now have a non-"hub" motor build Methy has manned up & dropped the frock :mrgreen:
 

So then I get some batteries. . .


So Luke calls me up (you know - the mentally deranged guy we call Liveforphysics) ranting about some batteries that I have to buy. Babbling about how they are $0.18/watt and they would be perfect for my build. Another long story short that includes a frantic trip the the bank 3 minutes before closing an a wad of cash so big it only fit in a coat pocket and we have the following:

Batteries - lots and lots of batteries

2,650 to be exact -> or about 26KWH. To put it in perspective, that is 500lbs of A123 sized batteries. About half a Tessla pack

I went thru several testing rigs - first testing at 20A, then at 100A. I started by trying to bin up the Ah of each bank but got board of that quick. What I am doing now is testing the behavior or the cells under a 3C load

Bank = 2S 12P
Rated Ah = 34.8 AH
Test current = ~100A
Apx C rating = 2.9C

I use 14 x 1ohm 30W batteries in parallel sandwiched between 3 aluminum Infineon cases cooled via a computer fan.
Datalogging at the cell level happens with the iCharger
Datalogging of the current happens with the CA


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This is the GUI for my BMS - here I am only using it to display/record Amps and Ah coming from the CA

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I have started collecting parts on Ebay - this here is a 50mV 100uOhm 500A shunt.
QUALITY! After creating blue lightning by smoking out my first shunt (a story I wont repeat) I learned my lesson -> this ain't no ebike

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Ignore the voltage - that is just a pack I use to power the CA. The current is all we are really interested in as we are testing 2S. Unfortunately 6V is not enough to power the CA

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This is how I am going to configure them: Each little bank will be 2S 48P. Rated that would be 140Ah but it is actually more like 120Ah. If I were to run the packs hard - say at 400A continuous it would be more like a 100Ah pack followed by another 20Ah at "normal driving" 150A range.

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I went thru a few variations of this laod - currently it is running at something over 2KW. Anyone who has ever tried to dissipate that kind of heat knows.... It is no joke. I am blasting the crap out of that stack of resistors and it is still hotter than hell. At one point it was reaching 230C :shock: :shock: :shock: Now I have it under control. A 12V 2A PC fan sounds like a jet engine but does the trick.

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I dont know if you have ever tried to open a circuit that is drawing 100A DC -> errrr..... it can be a bit testy and connectors dont last long. For that reason you use a pre-charge resistor. This particular resistor is 1.5ohms 30W and it draws about 5A. First I clip this on then I make the main connections. This keeps the sparks down to a dull roar, especially when disconnecting.

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I am starting to prepare the wiring and collect an entire new set of "big boy" tools. This is ghetto - but it will work for what I want to do.

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Yea - that is right. My very own 4/0 cable.

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-methods
 

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Here is an assembly of the first 8 of 21 blocks

This is 8S 48P -> soon we will have 21S 48P
The pack will be 55" long, 14" wide, and 6" tall

View attachment 001_4of11.jpg


And lets look at the cable again... ahhhhhh....... Now I know what those guys feel like who drive the big jacked up trucks. Overcompensating feels good.

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-methods
 
Lookin good bro. ;)
 
grindz145 said:
Emoli? WTF? Where did you get them? What chemistry?

Lithium Manganese in a 26700A

I got them from a guy in an alley. . . :shock:

Lame Datasheet

Test Data

These are a mix of engineering samples, reject cells, partially toasted packs, etc.

These under-perform, but in the wold of electric cars 3C is awesome. I was going to buy ThunderSky, which sag like a MO-FO at just 2 or 3 C. These cells are rock solid at 3C. My peak current is only 450A which is about 3C (for now - I am going to switch to a 1200A controller eventually, then I will probably need a few more Ah).

Edit: They are rated at almost 14C but I think that is complete bullchit.

-methods
 
methods said:
So Luke calls me up (you know - the mentally deranged guy we call Liveforphysics) ranting about some batteries that I have to buy. Babbling about how they are $0.18/watt and they would be perfect for my build. Another long story short that includes a frantic trip the the bank 3 minutes before closing an a wad of cash so big it only fit in a coat pocket and we have the following:

Batteries - lots and lots of batteries

2,650 to be exact -> or about 26KWH. To put it in perspective, that is 500lbs of A123 sized batteries. About half a Tessla pack

-methods

Um are u saying u got 26kwH of EMoli cells for $0.18 per Watt Hr?

so ur pack was ~ $477?!?!??!

If so thats FRICKEN amazing!


edit: i'm a retard.
 
I'm pretty sure 26,000 watt-hour * $.18/watt-hour is 26000*.18 = $4680. For an electric car, that's a pretty damn awesome deal. I wonder what their likely longevity is?

Btw, I think this new category for Endless Sphere might be the beginning of social class differentiation on the sphere. :lol:
 
swbluto said:
I'm pretty sure 26,000 watt-hour * $.18/watt-hour is 26000*.18 = $4680. For an electric car, that's a pretty damn awesome deal. I wonder what their likely longevity is?

Btw, I think this new category for Endless Sphere might be the beginning of social class differentiation on the sphere. :lol:
yeah you're right. :( i used the wrong number! ROFL.

ok still very good price tho though - I was banking on a 144v or 196v 90ah TS pack - this might push me to get a different setup :)
 
This is a great thread! Where can I find the thread with the details of how you got the bug from San Jose to Livermore(is it?)? I see where you put together as much Lipo as you could and taped your power supplies together but I think the story of how far you got and where you charged would be a great read! The bug has the 4 speed transmission to help but San Jose to Livermore is a ways and isn't there also a significant elevation difference as well?

It will be great to follow this in ES. I know there are a bunch of us waiting on batteries to make the move to electric cars.

Dave
 
swbluto said:
I'm pretty sure 26,000 watt-hour * $.18/watt-hour is 26000*.18 = $4680. For an electric car, that's a pretty damn awesome deal. I wonder what their likely longevity is?

Btw, I think this new category for Endless Sphere might be the beginning of social class differentiation on the sphere. :lol:

Yep - I spent $5k -> but, I was about to spend $3k on TS cells that would have only given me half the AH with half the C rating. Sure, they would have been "rated" to handle more cycles but I think you and I know that I am going to thrash these cells :) I am not one to tip-toe around protecting my investment. :mrgreen:

As far as longevity - these are very similar to Lipo. A lot of these cells have been rode hard and put away wet. From what I can back-calculate from the AH charts many have at least 100 cycles on them (some maybe hundreds). Hard to say though - some packs are brand new and just never passed the original testing phase. Some are brand new but you can tell something shorted and burned a hole in a cell case during assembly. These are perfect after the one cell is removed. Most all under-perform (at the pack level) in some way, but for the bulk power I am using them for, they are great. I expect to get a year or so use out of them before my needs grow. I will sell them for next to nothing to an up and coming EV'er. I really want to build a 10 second quarter mile monster and these cells wont cut it for that project :mrgreen:

I agree that this will be a higher budget forum. Some of us are just at different points in our life :)
15 years ago I was living in my car cleaning toilets for $35/day so....


dbaker said:
The bug has the 4 speed transmission to help but San Jose to Livermore is a ways and isn't there also a significant elevation difference as well?

You know how it is always disappointing when the magician shows you how his tricks work?
Sadly - I utilized a tow-truck to get the car all the way home :oops:
Yea... I know... it would have been better if it were a story of Luke towing me on the freeway at 80mph with no brakes :)


I have all 21 modules built up. I need to move them to a spot where I can take a picture. Will post up soon.

-methods
 
All of the modules are complete -

10 models
2S 48P each
76V 120Ah


Now I have to tie in all the balance taps, create a platform to mount them on that will allow access to the bottom row of fastners, build a platform in the car, wire up the shunt and contactor, wire up the 4/0, wire up the BMS, wire up the speed sensor for the CA, and away I go.

-methods
 

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I think the first order of business should be to wire up the speed sensor in the CA and do some datalogging on the old Lipo setup.
It will be very interesting to see what adding 250lbs will do.... It is very easy to underestimate the amazing effect of Power to Weight

Jozz suggested that if I wanted to be lazy I could mount the sensor to the drum and stick a strong magnet to the rim.
I just may do that... Path of least resistance I tell you!

I want to get some Wh/mile number before and after - both for feather-footing it and lead footing it.

-methods
 
methods said:
Jozz suggested that if I wanted to be lazy I could mount the sensor to the drum and stick a strong magnet to the rim.
I just may do that... Path of least resistance I tell you!

a VERY Methods approach too! will the batteries all be mounted in the front under the 'bonnet' (or hood i think you Ameriiicans call it?)
Or will you be splitting them up some in the front some under the rear seat to balance out the weight so as not to affect the handling?

Methy, if you ain for tad under 9.5sec on the 1/4 i believe you would have not only the fastest electric sedan in the world but the fastest VW period! Your crazy enough to get there too i believe.

Hope the fit out goes trouble free anywayz Patrick...

KiM
 
IIRC your bug has independent rear suspension. There should be an axle constant velocity joint right near the transaxle housing. You might be able to zip tie on 1 or two magnets to the CV joint. It will stay at a fixed distance from the transaxle, so a sensor can be bracketed off of the housing. Perhaps another way to skin the road speed sensor cat.
 
I need to hang out in the alley more...:D that's awesome. A full car with 'new' battery for 7 ish grand... The electric revolution is here...

I'm a fan of limn for cost/energy density it's a pretty good balance, especially blems:D
 
AussieJester said:
a VERY Methods approach too! will the batteries all be mounted in the front under the 'bonnet' (or hood i think you Ameriiicans call it?)
Or will you be splitting them up some in the front some under the rear seat to balance out the weight so as not to affect the handling?
KiM

Actually by pure chance it is absolutely perfect.
The rear seat section is low and aft. It is 52" wide and 18" front to back.
My battery pack is 51" wide and 15" front to back.
It is a perfect fit - drop in - just as pictured above. Right on top of the very stout mounting system the previous owner left in the car for his lead acid cells. The only part of the car not rusting out is the previous mounting system. :mrgreen:

I could put a few modules on the floor in front of the rear seats and I could put a couple down in the seat holes in a feeble attempt to lower my CG by a few inches but wiring would be hell. It does not get any easier than this.

The cells will be on display for all to see too. It will be beautiful. I have the entire rear deck to work with for my contactor, shunt, charger, DC-DC, etc. The hood (trunk) will be reserved for cargo storage. I could put a board over all the batteries and use that for cargo too but I want them to be on display.



bigmoose said:
IIRC your bug has independent rear suspension. There should be an axle constant velocity joint right near the transaxle housing. You might be able to zip tie on 1 or two magnets to the CV joint. It will stay at a fixed distance from the transaxle, so a sensor can be bracketed off of the housing. Perhaps another way to skin the road speed sensor cat.

Did somebody say zip ties? That is the magic word - I love zip ties :D
I will give it a look.

The wood is cut and ready to go. Some real nice 1" hardwood ply. It wont budge.

-methods
 
IIRC the mainshafts of the beetle tranny are not very strong. You can do wheelies before they snap, but not always.

Extra tranny parts & u-joints will come in handy.
 
Methods, NICE!! 8)
 
TylerDurden said:
IIRC the mainshafts of the beetle tranny are not very strong. You can do wheelies before they snap, but not always.

Extra tranny parts & u-joints will come in handy.

You brought up what I have been trying to skirt around.... and you are absolutely correct. I have already gone down this path with IC Honda's - the damn "weakest link" game. The only solace is that I suspect the aftermarket for bugs is vibrant and cheap. This is the first Volkswagen I have owned - but I know how to handle a wrench and looking under the car -> it looks like child's play compared to the tightly stuffed transverse Honda engine bay. Pulling the motor in and out of my Prelude was like working a rubik's cube -> There were many solutions -> but picking the wrong one made it take a hell of a lot longer to finish the job.

My controller is set up such that it will only apply about 200A phase current until the RPM gets up there a little - then the power "hits" and comes up to the limiter. This is no good for burnouts, but I imagine it is good for the drive-train. Feels like turbo lag.

-methods
 
I forget exactly what part disintegrated, but when the Soliton1's final testing phases were happening, Rebirth Auto broke a Bug trying to smoke the tires, or something similar. :p
 
Hi Patrick,

Awesome deal on the bug and the batteries. Congratulations! :D 8) :D

TylerDurden said:
IIRC the mainshafts of the beetle tranny are not very strong...
The entire transmission is pretty marginal. Often just barely strong enough for bugs, so on bugs they tended to last quite a while before blowing (if driven gently). Friends with buses were constantly rebuilding them though (never heard of a snapped mainshaft).
 
I found you a camper trailer for it that you could put a little generator in for a long-range hybrid, when you start travelling around the country on tour. :)

[youtube]56XL0TysIn0[/youtube]
 
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