izeman
1 GW
if you need only one i can send it to you, i have some spares. just let me know.sacko said:
Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release
- Thread starter justin_le
- Start date
sacko
10 kW
Just checked this thread, many thanks for the offer but I am going to need a few.
Has anyone bought the thermistors in the link, they look ok?
Has anyone bought the thermistors in the link, they look ok?
izeman
1 GW
sure they are ok. out of curiosity: what do you need 100(!) for? there are offers on ebay for 10pcs for one or two GBP/EUR/USD shipped.sacko said:
pendragon8000
100 kW
little help?
i think i have everything right. but its not flashing. no data is being transmitted. the CA V3 just stays on "pc connect" then the pc app times out.
i used the drivers from http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm
and firmware update tool from ebikes.ca
the main thing i want to resolve is smooth acceleration , but have fast ramp when im already moving. I think the pulsing of the watt limit ramp on take off, has contributed to the breaking of 2 axles.
please help me.
has this error happened before?
btw i have tryed 3 computers with win xp and win 8 and they all have the same issue. also tryed another CA V3 and it wouldnt register at all (beta 19)
thanks for any help
edit
trying Download Old 2012 CA Update Tool
...
no good
...
edit
I'll try slower boad rate shortly then bed time.
i think i have everything right. but its not flashing. no data is being transmitted. the CA V3 just stays on "pc connect" then the pc app times out.
i used the drivers from http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm
and firmware update tool from ebikes.ca
the main thing i want to resolve is smooth acceleration , but have fast ramp when im already moving. I think the pulsing of the watt limit ramp on take off, has contributed to the breaking of 2 axles.
please help me.
has this error happened before?
btw i have tryed 3 computers with win xp and win 8 and they all have the same issue. also tryed another CA V3 and it wouldnt register at all (beta 19)
thanks for any help
edit
trying Download Old 2012 CA Update Tool
...
no good
...
edit
I'll try slower boad rate shortly then bed time.
Quick question.
I have my lyen 18fet controller set to 60 amps, but I'm going to upgrade my voltage from 72 to 90 volts.
I'm thinking maybe 60 amps may be too high for 90volts.
I heard that you can limit your amps through the cycle analyst. Can I easily do this through my cycle analyst instead of having to reprogram the controller? Will it work the same and be as safe if I limit my amps through the cycle analyst.
I still have my throttle connected through the controller and not the cycle analyst, if that matters.
Thanks!
I have my lyen 18fet controller set to 60 amps, but I'm going to upgrade my voltage from 72 to 90 volts.
I'm thinking maybe 60 amps may be too high for 90volts.
I heard that you can limit your amps through the cycle analyst. Can I easily do this through my cycle analyst instead of having to reprogram the controller? Will it work the same and be as safe if I limit my amps through the cycle analyst.
I still have my throttle connected through the controller and not the cycle analyst, if that matters.
Thanks!
izeman
1 GW
quick question long answer 
yes you can limit your controller's output with the CA on the fly. very easy with different profile to switch between for your convenience. in theory you could program your controller to infinite values and let the CA do the work. but depending on your controller you have something like "block time". a value that says: up to this value in seconds, ignore all limits and do whatever the controller can handle. so you could easily destroy your controller if this value is set too high and the combination of voltage and current is too high. i set my value to ZERO to deactivate it at all.
what i do: i program the controller to a (in my opinion) maximum safe battery/current limit. and i assign this to the "offroad or unlimited" setting of my CA. then i have a "legal" setting where output is limited to 600w and 25km/h. and i have a "normal" setting which is fun to ride and ok.
for all this to work it is ESSENTIAL that you route your throttle through the CA. it can't work if the CA can't control how much throttle goes to the controller - and this is how it works.
yes you can limit your controller's output with the CA on the fly. very easy with different profile to switch between for your convenience. in theory you could program your controller to infinite values and let the CA do the work. but depending on your controller you have something like "block time". a value that says: up to this value in seconds, ignore all limits and do whatever the controller can handle. so you could easily destroy your controller if this value is set too high and the combination of voltage and current is too high. i set my value to ZERO to deactivate it at all.
what i do: i program the controller to a (in my opinion) maximum safe battery/current limit. and i assign this to the "offroad or unlimited" setting of my CA. then i have a "legal" setting where output is limited to 600w and 25km/h. and i have a "normal" setting which is fun to ride and ok.
for all this to work it is ESSENTIAL that you route your throttle through the CA. it can't work if the CA can't control how much throttle goes to the controller - and this is how it works.
NeilP
1 GW
Offroader said:
Quick answer.
Lyen Standard 18 Fet at 90 volts just fine at 60 amps. Have over 10,000 miles on my 18 FET at 20 series, so peak 82 volts, with occasional battery packs of 24 series, so hot off charge, of 99 volts, with current set at 90 amps.
No issues at all, just keep block time to Zero
Thanks for the answers,
I'm confused, is block time set on the cycle analyst or the controller?
So you think I'm fine running my 18fet lyen at 60 amps at 90volts? That would put me at 5400 watts max. I have been running it all year at 60 amps 72 volts or 4300 watts without any issues.
I'm confused, is block time set on the cycle analyst or the controller?
So you think I'm fine running my 18fet lyen at 60 amps at 90volts? That would put me at 5400 watts max. I have been running it all year at 60 amps 72 volts or 4300 watts without any issues.
izeman
1 GW
block time is a controller setting.
i have my 12fet running at 60a@72v. so i don't see any reason why a 18fet should not be able to do 60a@90v.
i have my 12fet running at 60a@72v. so i don't see any reason why a 18fet should not be able to do 60a@90v.
NeilP
1 GW
Yes, block time is controller setting. Set with XPD, some other bits if software don't allow block time down as far as zero.
Have seen peaks of 14,000 watts with my Lyen 18, but now toned down to maximum of 8-9kW
Your figures very conservative.
Have seen peaks of 14,000 watts with my Lyen 18, but now toned down to maximum of 8-9kW
Your figures very conservative.
In broad strokes, the controller voltage and current ratings are unrelated.Offroader said:
- Voltage is a concern because of the capacitor and FET max voltage ratings.
- Current is a concern because of the heat generated at the FET junction due to the ON resistance of the FETs. Here the watts of heat are directly related to the Amps times the voltage developed across the FETs due to current and FET ON resistance - not due to the battery voltage. This is the familiar 'I squared R' heat loss ('I' = current).
For example, you might melt down a controller at 10V and 200A because of the current - or blow a controller at 150V and 2A because of the voltage - but be perfectly fine at 90V and 120A because the unrelated current and voltage are both in spec.
Quick question about block time. My controller is currently set to 10. I went through the software and noticed that I can only set it as low as .1
Will .1 be OK? or do I need 0?
How important is this setting and will this limit me in any way compared to before having it set at 10? I just find it odd that if 0 was best, why wouldn't they always set it to 0? Mine defaulted at 10.
What I don't understand is if my volts are max 90 which is well under 100volts max spec, and I've been running it all year at 60 amps without any issues, why do I even need to worry about setting this now? why is changing the max volts from 74 to 90 going to change exactly that puts my controller more at risk? Will the higher volts cause my controller to run more amps through it or something because of the phase amps?
Thanks guys, sorry for posting this all here in the cycle analyst forum.
Will .1 be OK? or do I need 0?
How important is this setting and will this limit me in any way compared to before having it set at 10? I just find it odd that if 0 was best, why wouldn't they always set it to 0? Mine defaulted at 10.
What I don't understand is if my volts are max 90 which is well under 100volts max spec, and I've been running it all year at 60 amps without any issues, why do I even need to worry about setting this now? why is changing the max volts from 74 to 90 going to change exactly that puts my controller more at risk? Will the higher volts cause my controller to run more amps through it or something because of the phase amps?
Thanks guys, sorry for posting this all here in the cycle analyst forum.
izeman
1 GW
as far as i understand: there is no CORRECT value for "block time". block time defines the time the controller runs "unlimited". there is an internal limit determined by the installed shunt. the controller's cpu limits the maximum current. so for the time set under "block time" the controller tries to push as hard as it can. this does help a lot to get the bike running as motors draw a lot of current from stand still. and running "unlimited" is the way the controller copes with this "problem".
fets have (like anything else) a standard current rating and a short time current rating which they can take for a short period of time. if you overdue it or pull to much current for a too long time the fet could burn.
so setting "block time" to ZERO removes this "unlimited" feature and is some kind of safe guard. but of course may reduce lift off performance from a stand still.
fets have (like anything else) a standard current rating and a short time current rating which they can take for a short period of time. if you overdue it or pull to much current for a too long time the fet could burn.
so setting "block time" to ZERO removes this "unlimited" feature and is some kind of safe guard. but of course may reduce lift off performance from a stand still.
NeilP
1 GW
Off-roader, You need to go back and read both my posts and teklektiks posts again.
Most of what you ask has already been answered.
As I said before, only XPD software allows setting zero amps other software does not.
The only thing left to answer is what block time is and why 0 is better than 0.1 or 10.
OK , imagine a controller with FETS that will be killed at 150 Amps instantly.
They can take 130 amp all day IF COOLED PROPERLY,with a fancy water cooled system or 130
amps in short bursts, as long as you don't keep doing it until you overheat them.
This controller is in a box with a heat sink and no other special cooling, so will overheat at continuous of as low as 50 amps, but remember those FETS are still good for 130 in very short doses.
So, you could set the controller at 130 amps and you would just have to remember not to use much throttle. That will never work as you will eventually forget and overheat it.
So current limit is set that won't overheat it EVER. So it is set very low, say 25 amps. Now your controller is safe from overheating....... but acceleration is utter crap. This is where block time comes in.
A block time of 10 seconds ignores the current limit for 10 seconds, so giving good acceleration when throttle is opened from fully closed.
This is how all our controllers tend to arrive from Lyen, CellMan etc. Set conservatively, they allow big excursions into higher current ranges for a short time, but drop to low current setting allowing heat to dissipate. Why don't they instantly shoot over 150 amps in the 10 second block time ? ... well that is another subject, related to the motor windings , saturation of the coils, voltages and back voltages etc, let's just ignore that for now.
So, as soon as you start increasing limits above the conservative original limits, and you have good acceleration, on your now standard settings, you have no need for a block time. Also as you increase voltage, you increase your ability to push higher currents through the controller to the motor, so risking reaching currents that can destroy FETs in the block time period.
Block time is there to give low voltage setups a boost on startup. A high voltage system just does not need it, and only risks blowing FETS.
Most of what you ask has already been answered.
As I said before, only XPD software allows setting zero amps other software does not.
The only thing left to answer is what block time is and why 0 is better than 0.1 or 10.
OK , imagine a controller with FETS that will be killed at 150 Amps instantly.
They can take 130 amp all day IF COOLED PROPERLY,with a fancy water cooled system or 130
amps in short bursts, as long as you don't keep doing it until you overheat them.
This controller is in a box with a heat sink and no other special cooling, so will overheat at continuous of as low as 50 amps, but remember those FETS are still good for 130 in very short doses.
So, you could set the controller at 130 amps and you would just have to remember not to use much throttle. That will never work as you will eventually forget and overheat it.
So current limit is set that won't overheat it EVER. So it is set very low, say 25 amps. Now your controller is safe from overheating....... but acceleration is utter crap. This is where block time comes in.
A block time of 10 seconds ignores the current limit for 10 seconds, so giving good acceleration when throttle is opened from fully closed.
This is how all our controllers tend to arrive from Lyen, CellMan etc. Set conservatively, they allow big excursions into higher current ranges for a short time, but drop to low current setting allowing heat to dissipate. Why don't they instantly shoot over 150 amps in the 10 second block time ? ... well that is another subject, related to the motor windings , saturation of the coils, voltages and back voltages etc, let's just ignore that for now.
So, as soon as you start increasing limits above the conservative original limits, and you have good acceleration, on your now standard settings, you have no need for a block time. Also as you increase voltage, you increase your ability to push higher currents through the controller to the motor, so risking reaching currents that can destroy FETs in the block time period.
Block time is there to give low voltage setups a boost on startup. A high voltage system just does not need it, and only risks blowing FETS.
NeilP
1 GW
izeman said:
Just realised what thread this conversation is in. This really needs its own thread!
Pretty sure the shunt has NO effect on limiting. Unlimited during block time is exactly that, totally unlimited. As you say controller pushes as hard as it can. The only thing limiting current during block time is the motor and voltage used. A motor generates back voltage (like a dynamo) as it runs (back EMF) even under power. This resists controller current. When motor is stopped, no back EMF, so current determined by voltage and motor windings. On a high voltage setup, current will shoot up and blow the FETS very quickly.
izeman
1 GW
he for sure can completely ignore my mindless babble and try to helpNeilP said:
pendragon8000
100 kW
OK I tried setting the board rate to 9600 and same result. Can I get some help?pendragon8000 said:
izeman said:he for sure can completely ignore my mindless babble and try to helpNeilP said:
Sorry, I really did read it multiple times. But somehow I didn't process this sentence correctly.
but depending on your controller you have something like "block time". a value that says: up to this value in seconds, ignore all limits and do whatever the controller can handle. so you could easily destroy your controller if this value is set too high and the combination of voltage and current is too high.
I guess I had it in my head that when I set my phase amps to 130, it won't go over that amount unless there is a controller mistake and that mistake is what block time was for to correct it. Which was incorrect. I never could imagine that a controller would run unlimited like this.
izeman
1 GW
maybe i'm just bad at explaining in a language that is not mine. you may want to read this thread: https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18675
a lot of discussion about BLOCK TIME. and what it may do and what not. but don't expect a 100% guaranteed answer *ggg*
a lot of discussion about BLOCK TIME. and what it may do and what not. but don't expect a 100% guaranteed answer *ggg*
izeman said:
izeman, don't want to start trouble here, in my last post I asked this question which I can't answer and read over everything multiple times to try and figure out.
if I ran my motor fine at 60amps battery, 130amps phase, 10 block time and didn't have any issues with very hard usage at 72 volts.
Why is raising the volts to 90 going to put my controller at higher risk now? Will the higher volts cause the controller to actually pull more current through it now when starting off? Even leaving block time at 10 with the controller pulling unlimited for 10 seconds, why will it now be more likely to break?
I am under the impression that current is what kills the controller as long as your voltage is under 100 volts. Increasing the volts shouldn't do anything to current. Kind of like you can run 1 million volts through any wire, but current is what will melt it.
Maybe the answer is in the above and I could have missed it. But from what I read the controller shouldn't be at any more risk by only raising the battery volts (as long as the battery volts are under fet spec).
Based on what teklektik said, voltage is a concern because of the capacitor and FET max voltage ratings.
He also said current is a concern because of heat, but specically said not due to the battery voltage..
Basically, lowering my block time should not change my risk of blowing my controller with 90 volts vs 72 volts. I do agree on lowering block time, but I am trying to compare 90 volts vs 72 volts and why that would make my controller more likely to break with the same block time setting.
This has gone from a short post or two to answer a quick question to a full-blown OT discussion.Offroader said:
Yep.NeilP said:
How's about this discussion is resumed in Offroader's original thread ("Can a Lyen 18fet 4110 handle 22s lipo safely?") and we get back to CA V3 stuff?
I think there are two issues here:pendragon8000 said:
- You seem to have some surging on getaway.
- You are having problems with the Update Utility.
Returning to the first issue - UpRate may indirectly affect surging or oscillation on getaway but it is not the primary parameter. Since we are talking about a bike with a motor powerful enough to break an axle (?) I think you should begin by applying the fix for unwanted DSGain limiting in section "4.9.2 Speed Gain (PSGain, IntSGain, DSGain)" of the Guide. See if this removes the surging. If not, switch to the diagnostic screen and watch the Limit Flags during the surging. The one that is flashing to upper case indicates the cause of the surging. See section "4.7 Test Throttle and Limit Settings (Interpreting Limit Flags)" and adjust the associated parameter shown in the table there.
Give that a try and see if things improve. You should be able to adjust UpRate separately to give you the throttle response you are seeking when underway. On the other hand - if you are using Current Throttle then you may need to adjust AGain downward to eliminate surging and that will universally exaggerate the throttle lag of Current Throttle - a tradeoff for the linear throttle control....
- As far as breaking axles is concerned - the CA only controls the throttle. If an axle can be broken by sudden WOT, then the bike/motor design is flawed in the first place... (IMHO)
pendragon8000
100 kW
AXLE BROKE again.teklektik said:
Excuse me while I go cry.
Ive been testing a couple hours a day (many hours) changing 1 variable at a time trying to find the culprit but the pulsing wouldn't go away . I read more of the unofficial guide and started changing the v/kph . this helped s bit but still pulsing ... Then snap. My $200 axle from Tench is broken. Less than 100 km of use. I'm so frustrated!
izeman
1 GW
imho if your axle brakes from power application then there is something really wrong. yes. wrong GAIN values can cause really big problems, but if you tried everything from Again=1 to Again=50 and this surging/pulsing is still there, than i don't think that it's the CA. i have a similiar problem to your's. i have a rough acceleration in the low/middle speed and power range. full speed and full power is butter smooth. have you tried directly attaching the throttle directly to the controller? does this help? if the behaviour doesn't change i would suggest trying a different controller?!pendragon8000 said:
pendragon8000
100 kW
i tried:izeman said:
Again 1,3,5,10,50,100
wgain 1,3,5,10,50,100
similar stuff on all the speed lim settings
and again on the throttle out settings.
chainging 1 at a time and trying hard launch. trying to judge how bad the pulsing was. some were ok but thats when its set so slow the delay when at speed is terible (beta21 - cant flash , seperate issue)
maby theres a setting in the infineon software that may help but i dont see how it would, as i can manually accelerate smooth and it doesnt pulse, so why cant the ca do it smooth when i go FT? It SHOULD be able to do it if i can, and theoretically better and perfect every time (if tuned well).
btw its 18x4115 @60amps 24s , h3525 26"
Edit
Justin, thanks for your help via email.
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