World Wide Electric Bike 36v kit, Fusin gearmotor review

[RTLSHIP]

controller off

[dogman]

Ok this pretty much ends the I leave stuff alone part of the review. After 500 miles of riding to work and back and a few torture tests, it's time to open er up and see the damage. What? no damage? Sure enough, none I can see. This is one sturdy little motor.

The last couple miles of the 500, I took it over the mountain to a road that has several miles of 10-13 % grade. I had put a thermometer on the axle stub, and in 95 F weather started riding up the grade. It was pretty hard to get up this grade, but in the low speed high torqe mode, the Fusin was able to go up it at about 7 mph with pedaling. On the steepest parts, it could not keep going unless you helped with pedaling, but I never had to pedal very hard to maintain 7-10 mph. The temperature though, was another story. Just like all the other motors I've heat tested, a steady climb in temperature resulted from the steep climb in altitude. In warm weather, I quickly reached the danger zone, which I consider to be about 170F. I kept riding, and soon had temps of 170 measured on the axle, outside the hub. I stopped then, and touching the hub, scorched my hand pretty good. So, unfortunately, this motor has the same achilles heel as all the other smaller motors I've ridden. In hot weather, or any weather if ridden long enough, a really steep hill will cause them to overheat pretty quick. I would say that this motor, at peak wattage, overheats just as fast as a typical direct drive motor. Of course I was doing my best to melt the sucker down, but still, I wouldn't want to try to go crosscountry through the mountains on one of these, or ride into stiff wind for hours.

The bottom line is, the smaller motors just can't radiate the heat as fast as the make it in some conditions, such as hot days up steep hills. So you have to monitor temperature somehow, and stop if the motor overheats if you want to go further than 10 miles in hot weather, or up steep hills in any weather.

Back to the good news though, and that is the kind of torture I just put the motor through, did no visible damage. I was particularly expecting to see some wear or indications of the gears not liking all that heat. But the gears look brand new to me. Overvolting of course is another story, and I ran this motor at 36v, but still, I never babyied it, I rode in the dirt some, and never tried to ease on the throttle to save the gears. I just flipped in on and off any way I wanted, creating all kinds of extra torque on things. As you can see in the pics, the gears look cherry.

The only thing I found inside was a tiny bit of surface rust on the outside of the motor housing, which is steel. Not that water ever got inside it, but just some humidity in there from time to time.

The only dissapointment was there is not enough space for me to cram two more wires into the axle, so I can have a thermometer inside the hub. I'll have to settle for monitoring axle temps, and then adding 20-30 F to that number to guess at the temps inside.

Here is a pic of the motor apart. Dissasembling it is easy, at least as far as getting the motor can out. Just remove the screws on the wires side, and lift out the can. No problems like with direct drive motors, since you remove the motor, but don't take the motor apart.

fusin apart 500 miles.jpg (88.38 KiB) Viewed 1306 times

Here is a closeup of the gears

fusin gears 500 miles.jpg (73.84 KiB) Viewed 1305 times

And now the other side, with the magnets and halls visible,

fusin magnets and rotors 500 miles.jpg (83.51 KiB) Viewed 1307 times

[RTLSHIP]

How heavy is that hub & rim? I know the Bd36 is approx 14 lbs. I opened it up this weekend (changed brushes) and saw no rust. Alot of carbon dust. Maybe you should put caulking in the creases so that moisture stays out. But you would have to caulk both sides. If you caulk one side the moisture might get trapped even more.

[dogman]

With the tire installed 12 pounds ,and the WE hubs are close to 20 with a rim and tire and at least a pound of slime.

Waterproofing is kinda two edged sword, If you totally waterproof, it needs to be a dry day when you seal it, or you seal humidity in, that condenses if the thing gets cold. If you half waterproof it, you get water that gets in, and can't get out. In my climate, I can get away with ignoring the whole issue, and leave the motor a bit able to breathe. A hole with a rubber plug would be a good idea, so you could dry a wet motor, or let a hot one cool quicker. They used hot glue to seal up suff on this kit, and none of it stayed sealed for very long, with the glue cracking loose by 500 miles. I carry plastic to wrap the controller in if I get caught in a shower. I rely on a drip loop to keep water from running down the wire into the motor.

[RTLSHIP]

Rust seems to be less of a problem on the brushed motors. Maybe the carbon dust particles are anti-rust?
My BD36 had no rust and it's plenty humid around here.
Any idea if the sealed bearings can be cleaned & lubed? It's the first thing I saw when opening the BD hub.
My thinking is that the bearing could be soaked in mineral spirits to clean. Next, lube between the creases
with a hypodermic needle type injection. We do this at work with old bearings and it works alot of the time.
Didn't take a good look at hub bearings, though

[snowranger]

Could be that the rust was already there when Dogman received the motor.

[John in CR]

Could be that the rust was already there when Dogman received the motor.

Since Dogman lives in the desert that would be a pretty good bet. The motor was probably assembled on a very humid day in China.

John

[Crash Machine]

Thank you for the thorough review. I am new to this forum and joined after reading it. I have the Worldwide Electric Bikes 48v 500 watt front hub motor kit myself. It was nice to see the inside of the motor. I currently have over 800 miles on my kit and I live in a very hilly area but have had no problems. No grade seems to truly stall it but if you leave it in high gear it will begin to cut out(?!) under heavy load uphill. It's not a problem it just reminds you to shift down. Never have had it cut out in low gear before. The three speeds are wonderful. This is my first e-bike but I couldn't imagine not having it. It allows great control over battery consumption and power. I normally ride in med. gear up to 20 mph and use the high gear as almost a passing gear up to 25 mph.
I had the same concerns as you, too many wires, but after a little creativity and a lot of zip ties It came out nice. I feel like I got the caddillac of e-bike kits with all the features but I am somewhat concerned that like a caddillac someday the extra features might present a problem. This is my only concern, even if this kit doesn't regen. one thin amp the three speeds and the geared motor more than make up the difference. So far the quality and service I received have been worth every dime. Thanks again for the peek at the motor I been dyin' to open mine.

[louispower]

Hello Crash mashine, welcome to endless-sphere, you will find this is a very professional site for EV technology.

I think I must post here you findings on the "negative voltage" by our kit with your stand alone cycle analyst from ebikekit, this should be a good proof that the rege works although bikers could not feel it on a freewheel motor, that's why you think it is norminal.
http://fusinmotors.com/distribution/regen-brake-t29.html#p94

I have a solid 1000 miles on my 48v front hub kit. The first 150 or so without the front brakes due to compatability problems and impatience. Like he said the regen. is nominal. I have recently connected a cycle anylyst to confirm this. If you flutter the brake or the throttle you get a negative wattage drain that could be called regen.. I've played with this a little. I think even if it did have regen. I wouldn't use it. I live in a hilly area and commonly reach downhill speeds of 40 to 50 mph. The freewheel combined with the amazing gearing in the motor allow it to be ridden much like a normal bike. In fact I often just pedal my bike to the mailbox (mile or so) without the battery. So if this kit doesn't regen. one thin amp it more than makes up for it with the ability to change gears to maximize battery range and freewheel to allow pedaling and downhill speed.

For the anti-rust issue we have added treatment of anti-rust painting before motor assembled, this shall help to prevent rusting. Thanks Dogman for this reminds.

By the way I would like to post some photos from Crash Mashine by http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=411692511&albumID=1374246&imageID=17421943. It seems he is not familiar how to post photos by phpbb forums.
Your electric horse is now on endless-sphere

[dogman]

Nice bike, and hairdo too.

The tiny bit of rust was harmless, and most motors have some somewhere, caused by humidity condensing when a warm moist motor is parked in a cool place.

Not riding the fusin much lately. Three nice bikes in the stable means at least two are neglected.

[Crash Machine]

Hey thanks. Alot of work went into it and the bike took a little work too. I just joined this forum recently but have read a good bit of it in my quest to build this project. I kinda feel like one of the Wright brothers tryin' to make a great idea actually functional. This forum has been more help than you realize. I love this hobby/sport/pastime/addiction. It allows me to do two of my favorite things 1. Ride my bike 2. Put the screws to the blood sucking oil companies. I was in a bad accident on a turbo charged motorcycle which left one leg a little shorter. I used to ride a bike and used one for my rehab. but I was never competitive again. Now I ride again. Then I watched the oil companies break one off in us at a time when we could least afford it so...here I am. I'll never own another gasoline vehicle and plan on selling the two I got.
Anyways I just received my first Ping battery yesterday. 48v 10 amp hour V2.5. So you've got 4500 miles on your battery? How's it perform now? I have only run the first short cycle off this one so I'll try to post my opinion of it. Thanks. Crash the Machine

[dogman]

My ping is still kicking like it did when it was new. Partly just lucky I guess, but also because I bought the 20 ah size, that fits my 700 watt motor great. But the new pings have a better c rate, and your kit should perform just fine with a 10 ah, since the fusin kit has a lower wattage in cruise mode. Even though you can put off charging if you want to, I still advise shallow cycles if convenient. Mostly I've been pretty easy on my ping, but if I need to, I don't hesitate to run it down till the bms shuts it off. With a watts up, I can monitor how much power it takes to recharge it when I do ride to cutoff, and tell if any capacity has gone away.

I feel just like you do about the oil companies, and their evil henchmen the market speculators. Makes me puke thinking about Madoff and others like him driving up the price last summer trying to keep the ponzi scheme floating a bit longer. But in truth, there are days I need to bring one ton of building materials to work, and so I'll keep the truck. I ride when what I need to carry fits on the bike, I can carry a bit more on the gas scooter, the subaru if it won't carry on the scooter, and so on. I take the vehicle I NEED, instead of one that can do it all, and then carries my sorry ass around when it's a 1 ton truck. Not trying to save the world, just a cheap bastard that wants less of his dollars going to Exxon or whatever.

[HTB_Terry]

That motor looks like a knock off of a Bafang. What's with the three speeds? Is the controller limiting the current or RPM?
I still do not know how it would be possible for this motor to do regen with an internal freewheel. The controller yes, motor no.

[dogman]

It's a regen compatible controller, we're told. But obviously it's not going to charge a battery with a freewheeling motor. At some point Louispower did concede that as a fact. A small spike of regen may be measured as the motor inners spin down when off the throttle.

The three speeds has something to do with the way the contoller sends the pulses to the motor. I can't begin to understand it, but it is now avaliable on clyte controllers too. It definitely has more torque in the low speed, but my 36v kit, with 350 watts, makes it a bit hard to feel the difference. But it is there, and measurments of battery use are less in the lower speeds for sure. The led's on the dashboard also show an obvious decrease in voltage sag when using the lower settings. So it is a very usefull thing to have when you want to extend range, especially for a noob who doesn't have such a smart hand on the throttle.

FWIW Terry, I much perfer my aotema bike to the one with the gearmotor, especially on a steep hill.

[Crash Machine]

Ya like I said I got two vehicles too. Ones a 4x4. But maybe someday I won't need 'em. Anyways the three "gears" really do work. It's really obvious on my 48v kit. I don't know how it works either. But on my ride today on a particularly steep hill I was reading 1000 watts or more full throttle(too much) in high gear and after switching to med. brought it down 700 or so. It really does change torque too. I pull a trailer and starting off in low keeps me from spiking my wattage as much. You can't even get it to stop no matter what the hill is if your in low. Basically like you said it's probably kept a new guy from trashing gears. As for the negative voltage spike I get the largest one was a momentary spike of -11 watts. It occurs less downhill and more after dumping the throttle after a heavy load situation. Makes sense. No amount of playing with the brakes does anything, uphill or down. I love this kit but I bought it thinking it had regen. and it doesn't. But it definitely must have a regen. controller so I think Fusin intended for it to work. Also if you spin the wheel backwards the lights on the bike come on with no battery. Don't know what that is either.

[HTB_Terry]

The "speeds" are current limit settings, which is a handy feature. Very simple to implement in software. You can verify this by measuring the current when going up a hill. Take three readings, one per setting. I'd guess they are 8, 12, and 16 amps. The controller may or may not support regen. Any controller will pass some current to the battery through the internal diodes in the power mosfets. All gearless motors become generators when you turn them. Geared motors will engage the gears when turned backwards so they will generate in that case. When testing the hall sensors on geared motors, you might have to turn them backwards. So if you want regen, you will have to ride down the hill backwards.

[dogman]

Hey, there's a new skill to learn, riding backwards down a hill. I suppose for a real big hill you could unbolt the wheel and put it on backwards for the decent.

Pusher trailer with a hitch that can attach either way?

We need somebody with a dd motor with halls, and a cycleanalyst to see if the controller supports regen. non of my motors have halls. I suppose it does regen, or the lights wouldn't go on spinning backwards.

[Crash Machine]

Ya I kinda thought that when I saw the lights come on. I had imagined scenarios of me stuck somewhere spinning the wheel backwards for hours trying to charge the battery. Maybe not so far fetched. I'll try it with the anylst on just out of curiosities sake. It draws 4 watts just sittin' still with the key on, so...
The variable amperage thing makes sense now. It actually feels like a torque difference. I thought it was gonna be a phase change something. I'll test this soon just to see it in application. Really cool feature.
Second cycle on the Ping. I have the Fusin battery that came stock with the kit(48v10 Ah). So I'll be able to give a good comparison. Layman's terms, WOW. Go Ping.

[dogman]

Lousipower swears that it's not a simple amp limit switch. But he wouldn't reveal exactly what it was, just hinted that it does something to the pulse duration or timing. I felt that the difference in power use that I measured by monitoring the power used to recharge was due to the slow speeds using less power than the higher speeds. To get the torque, the amp limit would have to be the same. What I could feel, did not feel like the low setting had less power, just less speed. If it was a lower amp limit, the slow setting would climb a lot worse than it does.

Personally, I am pretty impressed with it, but wish I had gotten the 48v model. One of these days, I need to get the 48v controller for my motor. Even with the gears, 350 watts is a bit weak for the steep hill I climb to get home everyday. At 48v, I belive it climbs hills a lot better. I get up them, but very slowly compared to my aotema direct drive, than has twice the wattage.

The new headway packs are pretty exciting, but Ping still has the best battery avaliable for bikes under 1000 watts in my opinion. Some others are good, but only ping has the batteries out there in the world proving a year or two of reliability. Forget the round cell spot welded batteries.

[HTB_Terry]

OK, so it sounds like a throttle override. Three fixed settings or limits. The speed is controlled by varying the pulse width, so that jives with what he said. If you limited the speed manually, does it do the same thing? Competition is good, so another economical geard motor is welcome. You should definitely run it at 48V and see if it can take the abuse that the Bafang can. The motor itself would have to be either cheaper or have some desirable feature to be chosen over the proven Bafang. The controller with it's "three speeds" seems to be a good marketing strategy.

[dogman]

The caps are too small in the 36v controller to go 48v. There is a definite torque difference in the three speeds, It's subtle and some might not notice the difference. After a whole morning going up and down the same hill over and over, I came to the conclusion that the low speed really did have more torque than the high speed setting at half throttle. I think only the 48v version will be sold by world wide in the future.

[Crash Machine]

With the 48v kit the torque difference is noticable between all three gears. On my ride yesterday I decided to tackle a paricularly steep hill near my house. All the while monitoring my cycle anylst. Well the limitation isn't in the amount of amps. It does drop the amps momentarily under load but always rose to approximately 20 amps or more no matter what the gear, finally reaching a maximum of 34.78 amps. The wattage reaches a max of 1100 give or take. What the "gears" do seem to do is change the rate that it climbs to those maximums. Low gear always kept me rolling along no matter the grade and kept me under these maximums. I tried switching to high in the steepest part of the hill and received an interesting noise,vibration for my troubles. Switching back down a gear stopped this immediately. Probably where I got the 34.78 Amax?! So can you buy new gears for these things? Seriously? Downhill I reached a max. speed of 47.8 mph and playing with the throttle and brake got me a -8.78 amp min. very briefly. This adds up to 0% regen. and 0% total amps hours regenerated. Like I said briefly. I've got over a thousand miles so far on the 48v and I run it hard so we'll see.

[louispower]

Hi, all of you might be interested in such a test of our rege controller with a driect drive motor, and here it is made by a third party customer.
http://fusinmotors.com/distribution/test-report-on-the-24v-controller-part-1-t61.html ---part 1
http://fusinmotors.com/distribution/test-report-on-the-24v-controller-part-2-t62.html ---part 2

Der-Ming from USA has tested our controller with his 24v direct drive motor and posted his findings on our controller on rege & EABS.

Also a good news, we are having tests next week on updated geared motor to make rege & EABS works better with geared motor, we will posted our test results here and also on our forums.

Thanks,

[John in CR]

Hi Louis,

I have some big direct drive hub motors along with your 36V and 48V kits. If I try to take the 48V controller to it's limits by modifying the shunt, how many amps can those FETs handle? Do I need to change them out to IRFB4110's if I want to try to go to 50 or 60 amps peak?

John

[louispower]

Hi John,

we are sorry you could not change the controller by yourself. If what I rememberd is correct, your 48v controller is one with only 6 Mosfets, while our present controller is type with 9 mosfets.

If you want bigger current please email me your motor specifications, voltage level, and peak amp you need, then we could see if we could make it for you.

Thanks,