A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » May 09 2013 1:59am

1000w wrote:Hi there Deepfraught, I forgot to mention in my post above that I have a 9.5ah rear pack apart ATM and was surprised to notice it's a 5P pack with room to be a 6P pack. So this one could have been a 11.4ah pack if fully stocked with cells.
Thanks for that info Matt.
When asking new local price of $3-4k or $2.5k euro, feels rude certainly not a warm/fuzzy feeling, but just a reality of cost control when it comes to electric bikes when batteries are the dominant items.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 27 2013 12:10pm

I'm a newbie to this forum and e-bikes (not bikes in general). I have an opportunity to buy a 2010 A2B bike in a nearby town. I know it runs, so the motor is good. It has sat idle for two years. My main concern is whether the battery is viable and how much capacity it has lost. If I have to replace the battery, it goes from a good price to a bad price. Would someone explain how I check to battery to make sure it is in spec? Thanks!

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by oatnet » Jun 27 2013 12:35pm

trspl wrote:I'm a newbie to this forum and e-bikes (not bikes in general). I have an opportunity to buy a 2010 A2B bike in a nearby town. I know it runs, so the motor is good. It has sat idle for two years. My main concern is whether the battery is viable and how much capacity it has lost. If I have to replace the battery, it goes from a good price to a bad price. Would someone explain how I check to battery to make sure it is in spec? Thanks!
I generally expect the packs on used bikes to be impacted from neglect, cycle life or age, so until proven otherwise I would expect to replace the pack. Given that you are new, I don't believe you will have the tools or skills to effectively measure the battery, but you could ask the seller to charge it up, so you can take it for a full run to see what range you get out of it.

What is the price the seller is asking?

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 27 2013 1:07pm

oatnet wrote: I generally expect the packs on used bikes to be impacted from neglect, cycle life or age, so until proven otherwise I would expect to replace the pack. Given that you are new, I don't believe you will have the tools or skills to effectively measure the battery, but you could ask the seller to charge it up, so you can take it for a full run to see what range you get out of it.

What is the price the seller is asking?

-JD
$950 asking price. I haven't countered. New battery is $700, so I imagine I will make an offer with battery replacement in mind. There is also a 2011 dealer demo available w/ warranty for $2000. With battery replacement, total cost of used one creeps up fairly close to that. From a value (as opposed to cost) proposition, that is what I am weighing.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by Ypedal » Jun 27 2013 1:20pm

if the charger was plugged in at least every 6 months, the pack should be ok if it has not defective cells...

however.. if the bike sat for 2 years, unused and never once charged.... very high chance that the pack will have self discharged ( or the BMS killed it ) ....

charge it fully,. then go for a ride, if the LED display on the throttle goes to red within 5 minutes of use.... consider the pack toast and low ball the price tag if you are up for a DIY battery project/.
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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by dnmun » Jun 27 2013 1:41pm

usually the BMS discharges the first few cells and the others may be ok so you could get away with repairing it. not too hard. but if they are deep discharged the BMS would not allow you to ride it either. get out the voltmeter and measure cell voltages of each cell while charging. post them up here.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 27 2013 1:52pm

dnmun wrote:usually the BMS discharges the first few cells and the others may be ok so you could get away with repairing it. not too hard. but if they are deep discharged the BMS would not allow you to ride it either. get out the voltmeter and measure cell voltages of each cell while charging. post them up here.
Thx dnmun and ypedal. That makes it more clear. I can make a condition of purchase being a sustained ride for >20 min. or so. At least I'll know the battery is workable. I can handle a voltmeter, so no problem getting the numbers if I buy it. The sticking point may be that as a buyer, I imagine worst case scenario and price that in to the offer. Seller probably wants to get the price of best case scenario (of course the battery is good! :-). I'll make an offer and be willing to walk away. I always have plan b of the $2k demo bike from the dealer if this falls through.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by Ypedal » Jun 27 2013 1:53pm

man.. that " A " frame battery is not easily accessible... it's held in the frame with glue.. if you pull it out.. well.. it's not a 5 minute test/job........
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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by The Stig » Jun 27 2013 1:55pm

If the pack is dead, I'm thinking of getting a cellman(em3ev.com) battery made for the external battery on case on my A2B, that way he could make two and it would make life cheaper/easier for everyone.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by Ypedal » Jun 27 2013 2:07pm

and consider, for 2k , you can buy an eZee kit from ebikes.ca with a CA, 14ah LiMn pack, bolt it to a nice bicycle, and you got a sweet ride that will weigh half of the A2B..

the A2B is nice... but it's far from perfect..
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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 27 2013 2:43pm

Ypedal wrote:and consider, for 2k , you can buy an eZee kit from ebikes.ca with a CA, 14ah LiMn pack, bolt it to a nice bicycle, and you got a sweet ride that will weigh half of the A2B..

the A2B is nice... but it's far from perfect..
yes, my biggest reservation of the a2b is that it is a bit too 'motorcycle-ish' , but if the price is right, I could use it for a few months and flip it for something else. A 'closer to real' bike with pedal assist appeals to me more, but the a2b is an opportunistic purchase... something I just ran across and could use as an introduction to e-bikes.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by oatnet » Jun 27 2013 5:21pm

trspl wrote:
Ypedal wrote:and consider, for 2k , you can buy an eZee kit from ebikes.ca with a CA, 14ah LiMn pack, bolt it to a nice bicycle, and you got a sweet ride that will weigh half of the A2B..

the A2B is nice... but it's far from perfect..
yes, my biggest reservation of the a2b is that it is a bit too 'motorcycle-ish' , but if the price is right, I could use it for a few months and flip it for something else. A 'closer to real' bike with pedal assist appeals to me more, but the a2b is an opportunistic purchase... something I just ran across and could use as an introduction to e-bikes.
If you do a test ride on the $950 one, and it has the range you want,why not. If it does not have the range, there are easier, cheaper, more effective ways to start. Ebikes can be a challenge to resell (for the very questions you have right now), so don't count on being able to "flip it" easily and without taking a significant loss.
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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 27 2013 9:02pm

oatnet wrote: If you do a test ride on the $950 one, and it has the range you want,why not. If it does not have the range, there are easier, cheaper, more effective ways to start. Ebikes can be a challenge to resell (for the very questions you have right now), so don't count on being able to "flip it" easily and without taking a significant loss.
I hear you and I think you're right. The risk for me is dealing with an uninformed seller. There are too many unknowns. One (small) advantage I have is a pretty good track record of selling other things over the internet (collectable audio electronics). If you provide lots of well staged pictures and as much factual information as possible: date of manufacture, use history, spec's, measurements of current functioning, highlights of all cosmetic flaws, etc., you tend to get a less anxious buyer. What I'm finding out is that buying a used e-bike is intrinsically more risky than most purchases because the prospect of a battery failure just feels anxiety provoking. I would feel 'smart' if it all worked out and really dumb if I had to cough up $700 for a battery or sell it as a non-functioning unit. As you can tell, I'm still vacillating!

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » Jun 28 2013 1:39am

For you, I would assume a battery loss value at least.
If it were me I would do that also, but easier to accept when intending to keep the chassis for other projects or spares for the other 3.

To help you be aware of other potential issues here. I have found some serious frame fractures in a 2012 gen 1.5 frame, and start of similar in a 2010 gen 1 subframe. Having 3 chassis's it's not an issue for me, but imagine if you had a dead battery and cracks developing in the chassis... and then what if you get what some others have had the pre-soft start controller failure model, controller that is built into the motor. Can't easily sell it on with issues like that.

I'm an A2B collector/owner for life now, fastest legal e-bike in these parts, but wouldn't suggest it's for everyone.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Jun 28 2013 6:34am

Pffff luckily I saw this thread....I had almost bought a A2B 26 inch version for a good price without a battery pack.
O I will build second bike, so I can control the quality by myself..... :mrgreen:

Thanks for sharing info about A2B... 8)
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » Jun 28 2013 7:47am

Batteries are usually the single most expensive component, with less choice for specific housings, while motor and controller etc. Can be cheaply worked around.
The upside is it is good for devaluing used electric, stimulating new purchase/new models/new tech so by the third generation the sales of first two years have paid for the fixes of the prototype testing owner ;)

I saw one same Chinese bottle cage mount battery pack in three production runs go from horrible plastic partition closing and crimping the wires when fastened, gradually improving 10,000 units at a time.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 28 2013 7:50am

deepfraught wrote:For you, I would assume a battery loss value at least.
I'm going to look for a more recent model a2b with a more clear history than the one I was looking at. Thanks for the input.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » Jun 28 2013 8:01am

Just factor them into the price, and offer accordingly. The seller may not want to do more than get it out of their way and a decent bit of cash.
My second one read 5v on frame battery and didn't have charger, owner was daughter of deceased estate mother, used a Couple times, attempted stolen a few times, and before Xmas wanted it gone. I explained I assume frame battery is dead, case battery only value to me, rest as parts a bonus but not required. Both agreed happy and bonus for me frame charged and been problem free til end of my use with that chassis. I say a bonus but wouldn't pay more for it, balance didn't seem good long time in balance mode of charge... But not as fatal as initially. Assume worst and pleasant surprise if it isn't.
P.s. people here like parts, so worst case you won't have to scrap it at a yard.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jun 28 2013 11:26am

deepfraught wrote: people here like parts, so worst case you won't have to scrap it at a yard.
Good to know, hedging my bets! Question, is the battery user replaceable or does it require a trip to an a2b dealer?

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by Ypedal » Jun 28 2013 11:29am

it's not that hard..

you remove the black box below the cranks, there are 2 hook loops to pull the pack out of the frame ( it's glued in ) .. then you slide in a new one.. or you make your own to put in the frame or on the rear rack

If you opt for a B pack " rear rack " .. and the frame one is dead, i'd remove it to cut down on weight.

there are a number of threads on the forum documenting the process.
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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » Jun 28 2013 3:07pm

As ypedal said, not a dealer task just basic tools, time, and paying attention to connectors.

The three frame packs I have removed didn't have much glue resistance, putting them back and removing again seemed almost as tight as the first time, as the foam and silicon/glue is a well packed fit. I used a rope loop extension on the little battery pack loops and had frames upside down to lift it up as pulling out on both.

I can't charge at present bike parking sadly so I run rear pack into office, frame pack on way home. I prefer the bike handling without rear pack, but like everything else you ride around compromises for function.

Ideally I would like 32Ah of an A and B front pack with half of it removable for charging in office. I may be able to make an 11Ah auxiliary front/V fill frame pack, but no more than the standard, more packaging and appearance con's with minor performance and handling pros difficult to pull off like clean stock setup.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by trspl » Jul 06 2013 11:06pm

I started out just a couple of weeks ago researching e-bikes and was initially interested in an A2B. I posted some questions here and you guys gave me good feedback. I wanted topost a follow up on that. It's funny how you can end up very far away from where you started out. I did my due diligence and tested both an iZip (I forget the model, but about $2000) and and A2B 2011 model. With the experience of riding one, I decided the A2B wasn't really a good fit for me. I preferred the traditional look and feel of a bike w/pedal assist over the throttle experience. The iZip had pedal assist, but it was a cadence sensor that was intrusive. It felt like the motor was controlling my pedaling instead of my pedaling controlling the motor. I ended up ordering a Fuji bicycle that fit well (29" wheels, "police model", basically a hard tail mountain bike) and a Bionx 36V 350W 10 amp.hr system. Bionx uses a torque sensor instead of cadence sensor, so I'm hoping will be a bit more responsive to pedaling. The bike is here and the Bionx is arriving in several days, so I should have it up and running in a week. This ended up not being an A2B post, but started out that way. :D Thx for the feedback.

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by The Stig » Jul 22 2013 3:57am

I'm going to ask cell-man if he will build a battery layout I've designed that would fit in the frame of the A2B metro. Its going to be an NCM battery at 48v and capable of continuous 35A discharge. Would anyone else be interested? If he was building multiple packs of this layout it would make it more worth his while so it would be cheaper.
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Battery Layout - 14s 6p.jpg

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by deepfraught » Jul 22 2013 4:13am

Interested.
I'm not familiar with his gear, will look it up with time, but what Ah and charging methods did you have in mind?

I've got 6S packs for the rear box to assemble on to-do list. I have 3 frame packs now, I didn't think it would be possible/feasible to scavenge them down the track to make one of good cells, this sounds much nicer.
History: Front hub SS 200W, China E-mtb 200W, 3x A2B Metros, Commuter Booster beta, 2.4kW d/s w/DD kit, MAC 1.5kW road/flatbar 1250Wh EM3EV frame batt, BBS02 750W d/s MTB 1250Wh frame batt. All sold (except A2B Metros pending TLC from storage).

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Re: A2B Metro - www.ultramotor.com - Video Page4

Post by The Stig » Jul 22 2013 4:26am

Hes very reputable on the forum. I've bought batteries from him before.

I'm thinking 14s 6p so that works out to 50V, 12.5Ah


Here is a 14s 5p battery, with most of the specs:

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... uct_id=128

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