Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Mar 06 2013 2:38am

O M G .....thank you so much :D

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Mar 06 2013 2:55am

Merlin wrote:O M G .....thank you so much :D
+1. thanks for the great work!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by pendragon8000 » Mar 06 2013 3:04am

pendragon8000 wrote:Hi all, just wanted to say thanks for your great work on the Cycle Analyst guys. I am so happy with my first one on my first bike a got another for my second build. :)
Good news: got my delivery already :)
Bad news: sent a thumb throttle instead of CA v3.. :/ what tha? I blame the full moon last week. I'm sure it will be resolved:)
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my bike goes so fast 'cos it charges the battery while I pedal

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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by rscamp » Mar 06 2013 6:18am

teklektik wrote:...This guide reflects the state of affairs through B22-Prelim3. As soon as B22 is released an updated guide will be posted to reflect any last minute tweaks. New Config forms are posted above - these are good to record B22P3 settings when moving to B22.

Enjoy!
Seriously, I can't believe how much work you have put into this. Thanks!

Re: Temperature Sensor
"Jitter: Some display jitter is normal. Excessive jitter may be reduced somewhat by soldering a monolithic 0.47uf capacitor across the thermistor NTC and Gnd pads." 8)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Mar 07 2013 6:46am

I have been testing the PAS features and have run into a few issues.

Firstly it seems that the start delay setting works backwards. A higher number seems to start power earlier. However the stop delay seems to work in the correct direction with a a lower number dropping off power more quickly. Not a major problem and I might just have my logic wrong but thought I would mention it.

Next and more important problem. For some reason both forward and reverse pedaling will activate power. The sensor is a hall effect type that givs out a pulse output. The arrow in the setup page changes direction with each magnet pass of the sensor.

I have the pedal direction set to reverse. I wonder if part of the issue is that the sensor is fitted on crank side rather then the normal non crank side.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Mar 07 2013 7:16am

with the start delay i have understand it in this way:
default was 40 x 18ms i think.
you have to get 40 signals before motor starts assist.
with lower (for me works 25 fine) the assist comes early.

what PAS dir you use? My arrows just blink in ony direction. did i pedal reverse the arrows goes in the other direction and theres no assist.
I have also the sensor on crank side:
Image

I tried B22 also and my Settings to Max Thro Speed (6kph) wouldnt work.
i can go till max speed (25kph) without pedal.

trq | thro
trq & thro

has no effect. no assist. no motor spinning.

rpm | thro works
rpm & thro works too, but i have to give throttle power when i want assist from motor. (not practical in any way :shock: )

rpm | thro mode starts cool and smooth (4sec delay)
but it pushes to max speed ...on start everything is fine...with normal human power the assist helps really smooth. but when you set max speed maybe 30 and just want to take a tour with your girlfriend (16-20kph)
everytime you pedal the power goes till 30. you have to start and stop pedaling....

maybe i have set something wrong?! donno...will test today again.

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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 3:55pm

rscamp wrote:Re: Temperature Sensor
"Jitter: Some display jitter is normal. Excessive jitter may be reduced somewhat by soldering a monolithic 0.47uf capacitor across the thermistor NTC and Gnd pads." 8)
There has been some discussion about this jitter issue which in the end is a display effect. The cap will help the display in firmware up through B22 but will not benefit the actual accuracy or limiting behavior. A planned firmware upgrade should soon fix the display issue so if you want to hold off a while, Justin will fix it without the need for the cap hack.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 4:08pm

Kepler wrote:For some reason both forward and reverse pedaling will activate power. The sensor is a hall effect type that givs out a pulse output. The arrow in the setup page changes direction with each magnet pass of the sensor.

I have the pedal direction set to reverse. I wonder if part of the issue is that the sensor is fitted on crank side rather then the normal non crank side.
The mounting side is immaterial. Since you only mention one arrow, it sounds like you may have a RPM input from the sensor but no direction input. If this is the case, everything is working correctly - there is not enough information to discern direction. You need to supply a Dir input which can be either of:
  • a level input 0 or 5v on Dir to indicate direction, or
  • a pulse input similar to the RPM input but out of phase (quadrature encoded)
If you are missing this second input, take a look at the 'DIY PAS Cadence Sensor' in the 'Tip & Tricks' section of the User Guide. You can add a second hall sensor to your pickup or add a second (speedometer) pickup and all will be Good. :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Mar 07 2013 4:24pm

Thanks for the reply teklektik.

You are correct, I have nothing soldered to the direction pad and it sounds like this is required. I am a bit confused still though. So I need two inputs for the PAS? The PAS I have gets power forn the controller and sends out a 0V or +5V as a magnet passes the sensor. Can I simply just wire this to the Dir pad rather then the PAS pad in the CA or do I still need 2 separate inputs?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 4:45pm

Kepler wrote:Can I simply just wire this to the Dir pad rather then the PAS pad in the CA or do I still need 2 separate inputs?
Nope - you need a sexier PAS unit with two sensors. Here's an image from the User Guide:
QuadratureEncoding.png
QuadratureEncoding.png (2.44 KiB) Viewed 2870 times
This is a standard technique for shaft encoders. As you can see, the idea is that the Dir pulses are phase shifted from the RPM pulses.

Let's imagine that you are moving across the illustrated waveforms left to right (pedaling forward). When the CA sees a falling edge in the RPM signal it can look at the Dir signal and see if it's high or low as a direction indicator (high=Fwd). If you now imagine you are moving right to left across the illustration instead (pedaling in reverse), when the RPM falling edge occurs, the Dir signal is reversed (!) - just what we want. The CA is a little trickier and uses both edges so there are more 'pedaling indications' per revolution, but you get the drift.

So - you need to tack on another sensor. You can use a 2nd hall or add a second pickup entirely - like a cheapie bike speedo or cadence pickup.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 4:49pm

Merlin wrote:I tried B22 also and my Settings to Max Thro Speed (6kph) wouldnt work.
Please refer to the PAS section of the User Guide - it should clarify some points. But - the MaxThrotSpd setting only affects the "&" PAS modes, so you may have been tricked if you tried it when in an "|" mode.
trq | thro
trq & thro
has no effect. no assist. no motor spinning.
This is working correctly - these are TRQ modes and you have a simple PAS cadence pickup - without the proportional torque input, you get no assist.
rpm & thro works too, but i have to give throttle power when i want assist from motor. (not practical in any way :shock: )
Ha! This isn't meant to be practical, it's meant to comply with European ebike regulations (no pedal = no throttle!) :)
rpm | thro mode starts cool and smooth (4sec delay)
but it pushes to max speed ...on start everything is fine...with normal human power the assist helps really smooth. but when you set max speed maybe 30 and just want to take a tour with your girlfriend (16-20kph)
everytime you pedal the power goes till 30. you have to start and stop pedaling....

maybe i have set something wrong?! donno...will test today again.
Nope - this is working perfectly. The problem is that a PAS cadence sensor is non-proportional - it is an on/off switch to a fixed amount of assist that does not vary with RPM. Once you hit the 'ON' threshold, it's "Away you go!".

There are a few things you can do:
  • Add an Assist Level Knob using the Aux Pot input - see the User Guide. This will let you easily dial in the boost you want.
  • Add an Assist Level knob using the method in the 'Tips and Tricks' section of the User Guide. This does not involve Aux Pot if you want to use Aux Pot for another purpose like a preset selector switch.
  • Buy a proportional torque sensor like a Thun.
All that aside, you have a very nifty installation and it seems to be configured spot on. :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Mar 07 2013 4:54pm

Nope - you need a sexier PAS unit with two sensors. Here's an image from the User Guide:
Ok, thanks for that. I was hoping to avoid the extra wiring as I am tying to keep this build as minimalistic as possible.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 5:16pm

Kepler wrote:I was hoping to avoid the extra wiring as I am tying to keep this build as minimalistic as possible.
Hmm - retrofit a four wire cable or it may be time to snake some wires through the down tube...
Last edited by teklektik on Mar 07 2013 6:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 6:01pm

A point of information: I pinged Ebikes.ca about the PAS wheel situation and Justin indicated that there are no commercially available units that provide a second signal for direction - the Dir input seems to be primarily provided to support the Thun units although it can be exploited for simple PAS cadence sensors in a DIY fashion as discussed above. The units they sell have a bit of internal logic so they only send RPM pulses when pedaled in the forward direction - which is equally effective.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Mar 07 2013 6:23pm

Excellent. Thanks for staying on it tek. I will place an order for one with Justin. Very happy now that I don't need to run an extra cable after all as this build uses a full carbon frame with no opportunity to run cables internally.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 6:33pm

Wow - amazingly clean! Really nice work....
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Mar 07 2013 6:43pm

Thanks tek, you can see why I have been so focused on keeping cabling down to a minimum. :)

The CA3 is the perfect match for this build with just the one cable running down from the handle bars to the controller.
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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by rscamp » Mar 07 2013 6:52pm

teklektik wrote:There has been some discussion about this jitter issue which in the end is a display effect. The cap will help the display in firmware up through B22 but will not benefit the actual accuracy or limiting behavior. A planned firmware upgrade should soon fix the display issue so if you want to hold off a while, Justin will fix it without the need for the cap hack.
Ah. Okay. Thanks for the head's up. I'm curious though. Why would the jitter be so much worse before I added shielding to the cable to the thermistor if it is just a 'display effect'?
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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by teklektik » Mar 07 2013 7:15pm

rscamp wrote:Why would the jitter be so much worse before I added shielding to the cable to the thermistor if it is just a 'display effect'?
The remark about 'display effect' was referring to the 'normal' jitter that is arising because of the absence of display averaging and the software being stretched to show the trailing 1/10 degC which is pretty much on the edge measurement-wise.

I think there may be something else in play in your ESC situation because of the pulsed throttle signal. Justin has a lot on his plate and can't always keep after this thread - if you want a quicker answer, you might email him directly at ebikes.ca. Very interesting problem (unless you're living it, I guess....)
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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by rscamp » Mar 07 2013 7:22pm

teklektik wrote:The remark about 'display effect' was referring to the 'normal' jitter that is arising because of the absence of display averaging and the software being stretched to show the trailing 1/10 degC which is pretty much on the edge measurement-wise.

I think there may be something else in play in your ESC situation because of the pulsed throttle signal. Justin has a lot on his plate and can't always keep after this thread - if you want a quicker answer, you might email him directly at ebikes.ca. Very interesting problem (unless you're living it, I guess....)
Yes, I agree the pulse throttle is key - the jitter is a non-issue when the PWM signal is not present. This isn't a show-stopper and I'm sure there are more important things Justin is working on...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Mar 08 2013 10:18am

teklektik wrote:
Merlin wrote:I tried B22 also and my Settings to Max Thro Speed (6kph) wouldnt work.
Please refer to the PAS section of the User Guide - it should clarify some points. But - the MaxThrotSpd setting only affects the "&" PAS modes, so you may have been tricked if you tried it when in an "|" mode.

Hello Tek, thx for answer.
I will try it in & PAS Mode.

trq | thro
trq & thro
has no effect. no assist. no motor spinning.
This is working correctly - these are TRQ modes and you have a simple PAS cadence pickup - without the proportional torque input, you get no assist.

Ok, i thought it was only "like" trq...my hoping was that the power assist come from PAS signal speed.
Pedal slow rpm (30 rpm) = low voltage throttle
Pedal fast rpm (80 rpm) = normal/max throttle voltage.

that would be cool and the problem with 0 to max speed while pedal were away

rpm & thro works too, but i have to give throttle power when i want assist from motor. (not practical in any way :shock: )
Ha! This isn't meant to be practical, it's meant to comply with European ebike regulations (no pedal = no throttle!) :)

So there was a missunderstanding from me....
i thought i have to pedal WITH normal motor-assist and CAN use the Throttle.
Now i have to Pedal WITHOUT assist and get only Pedal-Assist when i push the throttle.
i agree with no pedal = no throttle
but in germany we "need" only:
no pedal = no assist, no throttle faster then 6 kph
pedal = assist to 25kph, throttle till 6 kph
pedal to get throttle is same illegal :mrgreen:

rpm | thro mode starts cool and smooth (4sec delay)
but it pushes to max speed ...on start everything is fine...with normal human power the assist helps really smooth. but when you set max speed maybe 30 and just want to take a tour with your girlfriend (16-20kph)
everytime you pedal the power goes till 30. you have to start and stop pedaling....

maybe i have set something wrong?! donno...will test today again.
Nope - this is working perfectly. The problem is that a PAS cadence sensor is non-proportional - it is an on/off switch to a fixed amount of assist that does not vary with RPM. Once you hit the 'ON' threshold, it's "Away you go!".

Ok i have understand. But i cant get it in my brain that theres no way to set the v3 to:
10 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 1,5voltage
12 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 1,7voltage
14 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 2,0voltage
16 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 2,3voltage
....and so on...just an example.
that would be come close to an usable throttle forced by different RPM speeds. I know from standing still starting in Gear 30 i get no or only slow assist.
no matter..that would be best setting. i dont start my car in 6th gear. when i want to go faster you have to gear down to more rpm :)

Something i have to try again is the Setting to start/spin/assist ....default is 40x18ms
i tried from 5 to 99 everything. with 1/4 crank rpm motor starts like an angry bull...thought also that set up 90 x 18ms will end up in 1-2-3 crank rpm before motor starts :?

i tried to set up the throttle from path through to Speed. and the Throttle max speed works. thats cool. BUT the thro Max speed is for all 3 presets. so i can only go 6kph in all 3 modes :cry:




There are a few things you can do:
  • Add an Assist Level Knob using the Aux Pot input - see the User Guide. This will let you easily dial in the boost you want.
  • Add an Assist Level knob using the method in the 'Tips and Tricks' section of the User Guide. This does not involve Aux Pot if you want to use Aux Pot for another purpose like a preset selector switch.
  • Buy a proportional torque sensor like a Thun.
...Really think about. But give it a try 200 bugs + shipping + tax will be an expensive try ....wish i could drive a thun sample in Germany

All that aside, you have a very nifty installation and it seems to be configured spot on. :D
i nifty installation and configured spot on?....i feel like the first v3 / Ebike user in Germany :P

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 08 2013 12:00pm

Merlin wrote:
teklektik wrote:
Merlin wrote:rpm & thro works too, but i have to give throttle power when i want assist from motor. (not practical in any way :shock: )
Ha! This isn't meant to be practical, it's meant to comply with European ebike regulations (no pedal = no throttle!) :)
So there was a misunderstanding from me....
i thought i have to pedal WITH normal motor-assist and CAN use the Throttle.
Now i have to Pedal WITHOUT assist and get only Pedal-Assist when i push the throttle.
i agree with no pedal = no throttle
but in Germany we "need" only:
no pedal = no assist, no throttle faster then 6 kph
pedal = assist to 25kph, throttle till 6 kph
pedal to get throttle is same illegal
okay - I think I understand. The different conditions of the different laws are a little slippery.
First - I was trying to be brief above without recounting the manual in detail - I didn't mean to mislead... the PAS stuff in particular is a little difficult to grasp. So here's the PAS writeup from the final B22 manual to give a more complete description of the options:
PasOperationSummary_B22.png
PasOperationSummary_B22.png (98.54 KiB) Viewed 2758 times
For RPM&Throt mode, Setting MxThrotSp would allow you to use the throttle up to 6kph, but it does seem there is no way to get RPM assist in this mode for the "up to 25kph" part. The present B22 implementation does not make this possible. Justin will need to look at this.
rpm | thro mode starts cool and smooth (4sec delay)
but it pushes to max speed ...on start everything is fine...with normal human power the assist helps really smooth. but when you set max speed maybe 30 and just want to take a tour with your girlfriend (16-20kph)
every time you pedal the power goes till 30. you have to start and stop pedaling....

maybe i have set something wrong?! donno...will test today again.
Nope - this is working perfectly. The problem is that a PAS cadence sensor is non-proportional - it is an on/off switch to a fixed amount of assist that does not vary with RPM. Once you hit the 'ON' threshold, it's "Away you go!".
Ok i have understand. But i cant get it in my brain that theres no way to set the v3 to:
10 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 1,5voltage
12 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 1,7voltage
14 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 2,0voltage
16 Magnetic Pulses from PAS / second = 2,3voltage
....and so on...just an example.
that would be come close to an usable throttle forced by different RPM speeds. I know from standing still starting in Gear 30 i get no or only slow assist.
no matter..that would be best setting. i dont start my car in 6th gear. when i want to go faster you have to gear down to more rpm :)
I have to admit that I had a similar thought when I first started reading about the PAS wheels. I think one of the difficulties is that the CA doesn't know what gear you are in so 30rpm does not always mean the same thing from an assist perspective - you need more assist power at 30 rpm in high gears than you do in low gears.
Something i have to try again is the Setting to start/spin/assist ....default is 40x18ms
i tried from 5 to 99 everything. with 1/4 crank rpm motor starts like an angry bull...thought also that set up 90 x 18ms will end up in 1-2-3 crank rpm before motor starts :?
The Strt Delay parameter is defined like so:
  • Strt Delay x18mS: This number determines the minimum amount of time (in 18mS increments) between PAS pulse intervals before the CA assumes that you are pedaling. The smaller the number, the faster you need to be pedaling at take-off before the CA’s PAS mode will kick in.
This may be a little confusing since it's describing the delay between pulses not the delay in starting assist. You have a lot of magnets in your PAS wheel so the CA is going to get a lot of pulses quickly (very short delay). It looks like you need to set the value even lower and pedal slower off the line.
i tried to set up the throttle from path through to Speed. and the Throttle max speed works. thats cool. BUT the thro Max speed is for all 3 presets. so i can only go 6kph in all 3 modes :cry:
[/color]
I believe the thinking was that there would only be one PAS preset - the others would be throttle-based. This may be a case of not having fully realized the implications of all these nasty pedalec laws that folks must obey. Justin will need to review this... I know there is very limited EEPROM config memory available at this point.
There are a few things you can do:
  • Add an Assist Level Knob using the Aux Pot input - see the User Guide. This will let you easily dial in the boost you want.
  • Add an Assist Level knob using the method in the 'Tips and Tricks' section of the User Guide. This does not involve Aux Pot if you want to use Aux Pot for another purpose like a preset selector switch.
  • Buy a proportional torque sensor like a Thun.
...Really think about. But give it a try 200 bugs + shipping + tax will be an expensive try ....wish i could drive a thun sample in Germany
Okay - here's something you can try with B22:

If we look at the descriptions above, Trq&Throt seems the closest to what you want. This should give you the pedaling-with-assist and throttle-to-6kph that you desire. The issue is that it's a torque mode, not an RPM mode. But - if you look in the 'Tips and Tricks' section of the User Manual, it shows how to add a PAS Assist adjustment to your simple PAS wheel that makes it look like a torque mode device - except the torque is constant.

If you use that approach, you can configure for Trq&Throt which will make you legally compliant and will give you a means to dial down the assist when you start off. If you put the adjust knob near the left hand grip, you should be able to dial up the assist pretty easily. Although it sounds strange, you could actually replace the assist knob with a second (left) throttle that controls assist level. You might be able to remove the spring from a thumb throttle and stick in a bit of foam or something so it will hold position.

If you want to try this with constant assist you can jump the Trq PCB pad to either the Throttle or Aux Pot +5v pads. This will make it look like you have max assist at all times. You still will need to do the configuration in 'Tips and Tricks' to get the 'virtual torque' calibrated and working properly.
All that aside, you have a very nifty installation and it seems to be configured spot on. :D
i nifty installation and configured spot on?....i feel like the first v3 / Ebike user in Germany :P
'Nifty installation' = I like your PAS wheel mounting :D . 'Spot on' = You CA seems to be working as designed - the different modes work, etc. They may not do what you expected, but it seems every mode worked correctly....

Anyhow, thanks for posting - the clarification of German law was very helpful - we'll have to see what Justin comes up with...
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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by rscamp » Mar 09 2013 1:31pm

teklektik wrote:There has been some discussion about this jitter issue which in the end is a display effect. The cap will help the display in firmware up through B22 but will not benefit the actual accuracy or limiting behavior. A planned firmware upgrade should soon fix the display issue so if you want to hold off a while, Justin will fix it without the need for the cap hack.
I went ahead and added the recommended capacitor pretty much as shown in the attached pic with some RTV silicone under it to snub vibration.

My logic for doing this was that with the extra noise from the R/C PWM signal it might help to have additional analog smoothing ahead of any new programmed averaging in firmware. The temperature reading is now stable regardless of the throttle setting so :)
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Rob
Trice QNT with Astro 3215 8T & V4 Drive
Trice Q with Bafang BBS02 at 48V with "500W" limit
Astro 3210-12T + Neugart PLQE60 20:1 Chain-Puller Spring '17

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Unofficial User Guide - B22-Prelim3

Post by teklektik » Mar 09 2013 1:56pm

rscamp wrote:The temperature reading is now stable regardless of the throttle setting so :)
Great news. We'll have to see how much averaging is being added in B23, but it's good to know the cap trick is effective for difficult situations.
Thanks for the update!
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rscamp   1 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rscamp » Mar 11 2013 5:34am

I received word from Justin yesterday that there will be a firmware update to address throttle cancellation with ebrake. On R/C systems with the CC HV160 controller at least, throttle isn't cancelled until the brake is released. This is because the PPM signal is lost while the brake is pulled and returns (at minimum throttle) when the brake is released.

To paraphrase very briefly his words, a firmware change was made to make the throttle output go to 0V to activate regen on a future product. With the PPM output, this makes for a 0ms pulse rather than Min Throttle so the R/C controller thinks it isn't getting any signal. A change will be made so the PPM output will go to minimum throttle when the brake is pulled which should cure the issue.
Rob
Trice QNT with Astro 3215 8T & V4 Drive
Trice Q with Bafang BBS02 at 48V with "500W" limit
Astro 3210-12T + Neugart PLQE60 20:1 Chain-Puller Spring '17

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