Tidal Force, 9C 6x10, Lipo 14S build

I picked up 2 tidal force frames from Oatnet about a year ago. There was a sale on 9C 6x10 motors that was on my radar. It wasn't until Dogman did a review on this motor that convinced me of its trail riding potential.

Here is the custom torque arm I milled out and the start of the new build.

I will be using A123 on this build, installed in the triangle like I did with the BMC build. The mounting will be done differently, since there is even less room for the amount of cells I need. I will be running 16S on this setup. I'm waiting for my rear topeak rack at the moment. This is where I will mount the Lyen controller. I will be using regen as well for breaking along with the disk brake shown. I need to mill out the current mechanical brakes just to fit the 9C hub. I recommend going with the new 9C hubs with iso disk mounts, since the current setup is really a crap design.

Nice work on the torque arm. Looking forward to hearing how this does on the trails as compared to the BMC build. Particularly interested in low speed torque/hill climbing for 6x10 9C.

Regards -- Rich

Will you need the new Alhonga caliper from ebikes.ca to fit the caliper between the rotor and the hub? The new disk oriented 9C only has 14mm of space, which doesn't work with my Hayes caliper?

I plan on modifying the calipers I have. I will also be using regen on this setup as well.

chvidgov.bc.ca said:

Will you need the new Alhonga caliper from ebikes.ca to fit the caliper between the rotor and the hub? The new disk oriented 9C only has 14mm of space, which doesn't work with my Hayes caliper?

Click to expand...

The weather here has been very rainy. I've been able to do some work but I doubt much will get done once the weather gets better. I've started on the battery compartment. Originally I was going to leave the front and back open but after seeing Nicobie's work. I've decided to go the full nine yards and fully enclose the batteries. More work but it should look a little more finished and make cleanup easier.

My current plan for this ebike is to make it into a reliable long distance traveller. I plan to put batteries in the triangle, in the rear rack and on custom made panniers as well as some diode isolation so I can use different cell packs. I originally was planning to make it a backup bike for the trails due to the low torque of the 6x10 motor. The bike not being full suspension, it really would not compete with my BMC build, which is about all I will ever need for trail riding here in Mich.

So it occured to me a long distance hauler would be cool to have. Comfort and speed now have a little bit more priority in this build. A thudbuster seatpost was picked up, but the diameter is slightly larger than the Tidal Force frame. I will have to try sanding the opening a bit more to accomidate the tube, 30.5mm vs 30.9mm. You would think their would be some standards

I will be very interested in seeing how you get the disk brake on and keep the torque arm mount. To my knowledge, no one has been able to do that.

I look forward to seeing your build kfong!

-JD

I found some time to work on the TF, I had to modify the rear brake. The original mounting bracket was too short and needed to be extended. I created a new bracket that raised it a few millimeters. Fits perfect, gotta love CNC stuff. I still have to modify the inner brake pad. I had milled the top off, but I didn't account for the added thickness of the brake pad itself. The area between the disk and the hub motor is very narrow. Here are pics.

View attachment 2



I plan to use the TF my long distance travel bike, but haven't had much interest in it due to all my trail riding. I'm also curious to see how the motor performs in the trails, so I'm hoping to get it running before winter sets in.

A thudbuster seatpost was picked up, but the diameter is slightly larger than the Tidal Force frame. I will have to try sanding the opening a bit more to accomidate the tube, 30.5mm vs 30.9mm. You would think their would be some standards.

Click to expand...

The thudbuster is available in a wide range of sizes. For the s-750 one needs to purchase the 29.7? version, and the 30.5mm shim. The 29.7 is the only size that has a version with the 450mm long pole, and IIRC that is the size that most of the shims are offered for, so that would be closest to their 'standard'. Did you buy it from the thudbuster website?

-JD

Nope, picked it up on eBay. I can get it to fit if I cut down the tube length, but I plan to sand down the inner tube of the bike frame first. it's a very close fit, but binds once it gets half way down.

I finally had some time to work on this build. It lost a lot of priority compared to the other bike builds, but the weather has been crappy and it’s close to being done. Its current role is a long distance bike for travel, but realistically it's just a spare bike that I probably should get rid of. I’m leaving the triangle alone and going with a rear battery pack for now. Since I'm using the same Topeak system, I can use any of my current Topeak packs. Rear brake is finally done; there is enough clearance now for everything to run smoothly. It will have front and rear disk brakes. I will also try regen and see if I like having it. I’ve heard it creates a lot of drag when coasting so it might be omitted.

Controller is mounted and needs final wiring. Picked up some nice front grips, but still have to figure out what to do with the throttle. I really don’t like any of the throttles currently out. They all interfere with the index shifters. I’m actually thinking of creating an electronic one that has only 2 push buttons for control. Hold one to accelerate, release for cruise. Push second one for stop or both as an added safety stop. It would take up little space and for travelling it’s less fatiguing.

This build is looking good! Something I really like about it. What caliper are you using on the back?

My solution to throttles was to go single speed chain wheel on the front and get rid of the front shifter, moving the back shifter to the left.

shock said:

This build is looking good! Something I really like about it. What caliper are you using on the back?

My solution to throttles was to go single speed chain wheel on the front and get rid of the front shifter, moving the back shifter to the left.

Click to expand...

The calipers are mechanical from http://www.allelectronics.com/

I picked up a few since they were cheap at the time along with some brushed motor they were clearing out. I did that same setup on my cyclone build. Unfortunately trigger shifts on this bike has very little spacing for any twist throttle and I'm starting to like the idea of an electronic throttle for cruising around.

If you like the frame, I have a spare gray one I can sell for $65. Just the frame though. The nice thing is it's setup for a torque arm.

Thx for the info. I may need some help with my rear caliper on the 9c build... What size is the frame for sale?

shock said:

Thx for the info. I may need some help with my rear caliper on the 9c build... What size is the frame for sale?

Click to expand...

As far as I know the frame comes only in one size from Oatnet. Medium is my guess, but it might be more of a one general size bike. Oatnet would know more about the geometry. Pretty solid frames. There is a running thread on them.

Finally have this bike built and running but.....

Having problems wiring this setup. I'm getting a no load draw at full throttle of 23amps at 48v a little over 1000 watts. This is way too high to be correct. I've gone through all the combination and only one setting gave me a reasonable no load current of a few amps, but the motor ran in reverse. Any other combination the current was either too high or the motor would stutter and not turn. This really has me stumped. I've gone through the combinations twice with the same results. The controller is a 6 fet Lyen. I haven't played with the settings, I suppose that would be the next thing to look into. Tempted to try a different controller but don't want to deal with the rewireing just yet. Torque is rather disapointing as well, hoping that it might be due to the controller.

Assuming both your controller and motor have the same wiring color mine do, then according to my notes from back when I got mine, it should use:

Motor - controller

Phase
B - B
Y - G
G - Y

Hall
B - B
Y - G
G - Y

I think there was another working forward combo, too, but I didn't have it in those notes.

Thanks amberwolf, but I finally got it running. I had to go through my notes and found this to be of great help. I wish I knew who wrote it so I can give credit. John in CR comes to mind, but I'm not positive. I finally got a no load current of .8 amps at WOT. This looks correct at 48volt with 26" wheel. I can finally wire it up and finalize things. I should follow my notes more carefully since I got whacked in the left shin Now onto my other bikes.


From my notes:

Be careful of the pedals in case you get a reverse, so you don't get whacked or hit your kickstand. Get the motor wheel off the ground, and remember to only try small throttle pulses when testing combos. Start with only the throttle, battery, controller, and motor. Add other stuff after you get it running. Yes, there are 36 possible combinations of the 3 halls, and 3 phases, but the are 6 good combos, 3 forward and 3 reverse. People typically run into trouble by swapping too many wires around at once. Every hall combo has 1 good phase combo, and every phase combo has 1 good hall combo. It could be forward or it could be reverse. Typically it's easier to swap phases, so leave the halls alone unless you get a reverse.

First, try all six combinations of phase wires. You will get a good smooth forward or a good smooth reverse as one of those combos. Only swap 2 at a time when changing them, because it's easier to be systematic. If the good combo is reverse, then you need to swap 2, any 2, and only 2 of the 3 hall wires (not red or black). After swapping the 2 halls, then try the other 5 phase combos (you already know the current one won't work) until you get the good smooth forward. 

AFAICR that's John in CR's instructions,
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=493779#p493779which work on probably most motors (though there seem to be some it does nto work with, probably due to hall sensor placement/timng advances?).


What color combo ended up correct?

Ha ha, memory serves. I believe it's the same color combination you posted. Motor wires are covered but pretty sure it's the same. Really interested in how this setup compares to my Cyclone and BMC since they are all running on 12S lipo's now. All three motors were chosen for their trail riding performance. Cyclone is faster at 27mph but too noisy. BMC is around 23-24mph but is almost silent. Both have plenty of torque. Will go for a ride today and see if I like this motor. It's heavier than both setups, so that is already one thing going against it with all the weight in the back and the battery. I'm not seeing it as a good setup for trails. It's also slower at around 20mph from what I've read. Will gps it today as well. 20mph is all I need for single track, so that wasn't an issue.

The trails were too wet to go on, but I was able to do a little bit of trail riding. My overall impression wasn't that great. Max speed on the gps was 21.4 and that was probably helped by the wind. It seemed to hover more a 18 than 20. I was able to easily help with pedaling with the 11 tooth at these speeds which was good. I ran out of power at around 15 miles. I should of had a wattmeter since I had to pedal 10 miles to make it back home. I was hoping to get more range, so this is probably comparable to the other motors. It pedals easy enough without power. I didn't notice the motor dragging or clogging much. The motor is quiet but not much better than the BMC at startup. Once rolling at speed it is very quiet. This motor needs more voltage to feel more peppy. For trail use I prefer the BMC. Torque seemed less. This Is my least favorite of the three motors. Tidal force performed ok, not really a good trail bike. Works great for cruising and the thud buster worked very well. It felt like I had full suspension. This bike will work great for long distance cruising, it's fairly comfortable riding it. I will probably sell this ebike. It really does not compete with my other bikes. I bet at 72v it will bring back the ev grin. Something I will do if it sticks around.

kfong said:

I bet at 72v it will bring back the ev grin. Something I will do if it sticks around.

Click to expand...

As someone who goes back and forth between BMC and DD motors, you need more V to wake the DD up, especially with the 6x10 winding. 72v nominal would give you roughly the same feel as your BMC.

-JD

Thanks JD. That is good to know. Seems like I would get a big hit on efficiency at those voltage levels making the bike less ideal for long distance traveling. It works ok with peddling currently, but I would like it just a little faster. If I ever need to commute to work, then I can see a highly overvolted direct drive as a useful addition. For now the BMC is my motor of choice, and the Tidal Force 6x10 is now a spare bike I should just sell.

kfong said:

Thanks JD. That is good to know. Seems like I would get a big hit on efficiency at those voltage levels making the bike less ideal for long distance traveling.

Click to expand...

I have found that I use pretty much the same wh/m on my commute between BMCs, x5, x4, 9c, and TidalForce builds from 36v to 100v, and I have heard others echo similar results. For me, drag, wind, elevation, and weight are what seem to make a big difference in wh/m.

At a given watt load at 72v, you would be getting more watts in from voltage, and less from amps, so resistance loss is lower and in theory it would be more efficient. In addition, you eliminate driveline losses from the planetary in the BMC. Maybe things like this offset the effeciency gain of the BMC running at higher RPM.

If you build the pack with more V and less AH, it could remain the same size/wh.


-JD

I should of rephrased that. At higher speeds I can no longer help with pedal effort and will loose out on distance. I was trying to optimize for pedaling, but at 48 volts the winding is still too slow. I was hoping to move my packs around instead of dedicated packs per bike.