GCinDC's Giant DH Comp

[GCinDC]

lying on drive side for 5 min, no drips at all.
lying on disc side, gushie, gushie. all told there was about 200mL in there.

20120525_143733.jpg (224 KiB) Viewed 508 times

a lot of seeping still to do. notice the fabric tubes full of oil. phase wire upgrade time!

then no shrink tube. all wires will be ebedded in silicon in the slot. if oil wicks up the wire, no biggie. at least it won't fall on disc... that's what i'm thinking now...

[Skippic]

When you open the motor next time try installing a new temp sensor (LM335 or a 10k NTC thermistor).
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=584730#p585768

[nicobie]

12x5

Ah! It's a HS3548. That is why it's getting so hot with stop and go driving. They will go faster than a 3540 but suck more amps getting there.

Be sure to check Justin's simulator as he has added it to his list of motors. Pay special attention to how long it will go full throttle until is smokes. Oil cooling or not IMHO you need a thermometer in that motor.

I just helped my Son-in-law with one of those motors running 22s lipo in a 17" moped rims with 2.75" tires. He drilled 6 - 1.5" (38mm) holes in his side covers and as far as I know is not having trouble overheating. He hasn't done a full speed run yet because he is afraid of the crap Walmart forks that come with the Gensis bike. He did put one of Farfle's longer swing arms on it. Looks badass now, wait until he gets it finished.




Myself, I'm sticking with my HT3525 @24s lipo in a 24" rim with 2.5" hookworms. Plenty fast for me at 43mph HOC. My fat townie will even do wheelies with it.

[GCinDC]

phase wire upgrade. new 10g on the right. stock wire left.

6" of green 12g teflon coated wire connect up to phases.

stock wire slot.

only a bit of digging req'd:

decided the only way i'll be able to 'waterproof' the slot is to abandon shrinktube, clean all surfaces, load up slot with RTV silicon.

the last stuff held very nicely, so i smeared a little mountain's worth in there.

embeded the wires.

coated the axle with the sealant and pressed the bearing in place, hoping the inner part will seal to axle.

i caulked the bearing race(?) and the sidecover slid on nicely. i decided it was more important to ensure a good seal between the bearing and axle, but was pleased to see the bearing fully seat.

then i opened the permalex(?) rtv sealant, and noticed it's much heavier duty, exhausting just to squeeze out. sealed the side cover.



all my markings wiped off the phase wires so i had to try a bunch until i got the match. motor spins fine.

i'll see if i can wait till tomorrow, mainly to give the caulk time to set.

then i'll read no load w/o oil.

q's:
- any harm in running w/o oil - will drying oil residue harm anything?
- how toxic is ATF to the skin? i finally put some gloves on but have been dizzy all afternoon and fainted twice. just kidding.

[kfong]

Nice job Greg, how did you bore out the shaft?

[rui_fujino]

Looks great! I hope this will work out! (did you upgrade the phase wire??)

[GCinDC]

Nice job Greg, how did you bore out the shaft?

didn't really bore it. used slightly smaller drill bit, moved it side to side to carve with bit edge. low brow.

then cleaned it up w/ a dremel.

did you upgrade the phase wire?

yep. i cut off old ones and soldered new bigger ones in place.

as i said, my B, Y, G markings wore off on the tape stickers i put on the new wires, but i thought i could make them out. i was wrong. but i was able to find a sequence in which the tire spun cleanly.

so i threw it on the bike and, very proud of myself for remembering to check current draw at WOT.... but AAYYY###

the tire spun hard, backwards, and my pedal of death did a little flesh grinding on the thigh.. nice.

are you running oil in your mac? tempted to? i can't remember and need to drop in on your stuff, at least to see how that versus is doing.

i tried a bunch of phase combos but none worked. i started taking notes, and thought i had them all. i was stumped, and about to start messing with halls, but that wouldn't make sense would it. the hall combo worked before, and a different phase combo shouldn't change that. i checked my notes, scratched my head, thought for a bit, then realized there was one more and bingo, it worked.

4.45A no load at WOT w/o oil.

i went back in forth in the alley, hit 5kw, but it didn't feel much more powerful. and after only 4 forward surges, in 1.5 minutes, temp got to 60C.

i'll oil her up tomorrow.

then maybe hit Rolling Thunder to check out the harleys.

[Ypedal]

I hope the rtv does not bind up the bearing inner and outer races...

I jbwelded the outer race into the cover and went light with the silicone at the shaft....

[kfong]

Actually that would be what I would have to do. These hub motors are too big for my small lathe and awkward to mount on a mill without removing the shaft. You did such a clean job I was trying to figure out how you did it. Sometimes I get too caught up with my CNC stuff and forget hand tools can get it done quicker and as you have shown easier.

I had a similiar problem wiring up my 9C, only one combination worked and I got a little frustrated working on it.

The Versus is just sitting in the garage, no time to really work on it. It will be a mid drive BMC hub motor setup with A123 prismatics installed in custom boxes. I have the batteries and motor, but it looks like a winter or fall project. This would be the motor I will be pushing hard, so oil is likely. Just enjoying the summer and trail riding as much as I can. Currently carrying 24ahrs on my BMC trail bike and can easily do 35-40 miles in the trails if my body can last that long. The Fox rp23 shock I put in this season really Improved the ride. Bike is a riot through single track. I don't even think the Versus will be as nimble and fun as this current build. If I ever upgade the front shocks it might be my ideal single track ebike.

The most recent news is the coming together of my RC Kona build. I tested it out yesterday and the motor and drive chain looks good. Just need to get a battery pack installed. I bet you would have fun on this bike, it's got power and setup to jump.

I took some eye candy for you. As it stands it weighs under 52 lbs. Add a light battery pack and this bike has some jumping potential.

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Nice job Greg, how did you bore out the shaft?

didn't really bore it. used slightly smaller drill bit, moved it side to side to carve with bit edge. low brow.

then cleaned it up w/ a dremel.

did you upgrade the phase wire?

yep. i cut off old ones and soldered new bigger ones in place.

as i said, my B, Y, G markings wore off on the tape stickers i put on the new wires, but i thought i could make them out. i was wrong. but i was able to find a sequence in which the tire spun cleanly.

so i threw it on the bike and, very proud of myself for remembering to check current draw at WOT.... but AAYYY###

the tire spun hard, backwards, and my pedal of death did a little flesh grinding on the thigh.. nice.

are you running oil in your mac? tempted to? i can't remember and need to drop in on your stuff, at least to see how that versus is doing.

i tried a bunch of phase combos but none worked. i started taking notes, and thought i had them all. i was stumped, and about to start messing with halls, but that wouldn't make sense would it. the hall combo worked before, and a different phase combo shouldn't change that. i checked my notes, scratched my head, thought for a bit, then realized there was one more and bingo, it worked.

4.45A no load at WOT w/o oil.

i went back in forth in the alley, hit 5kw, but it didn't feel much more powerful. and after only 4 forward surges, in 1.5 minutes, temp got to 60C.

i'll oil her up tomorrow.

then maybe hit Rolling Thunder to check out the harleys.

[Hyena]

Nice work G. As ypedal said I wouldn't have been so liberal with the silcone around the bearing, given the other side wasn't leaking (was it?) But hopefully it's fine.
That no load current seems a little high doesn't it ? I should be nearly half that. Or does that big fat wheel on there take a bit of juice to keep moving even with no load ?

I've had the markings fall up my phase wires when doing upgrades like that too - PITA sorting it back out like a new motor again. After that I always put a coloured cable tie on each one (got like 200 of them in various colours and sizes from a local junk shop for $5)

[Lenk42602]

[quote="Hyena"]
That no load current seems a little high doesn't it ? I should be nearly half that. Or does that big fat wheel on there take a bit of juice to keep moving even with no load ?
[quote]

my 16" moped rim, moto spokes, and bridgestone tw9 enduro motorycle tire is 3.93 amps no load wot.

[GCinDC]

hell and death.

popped a hall at 108C, or 100C. too bright to tell. grumbly motor sound. no power... same issue w/ spare controller.

nice long ride, skippic.

i'm going to cry now.

[hjns]

Very cool stuff.

You may want to look at your lacing. During my learning curve here on ES, I learned that the elbow of the spoke should be in close contact with the flange. Originally, I did not pay too much attention, but lately I have been replacing multiple spokes too many times. All were broken at the elbow.

Therefore, consider to use some rings around the head of the spoke prior to inserting it through the flange hole.

edit - just read about the popped hall. Too bad, I feel for you!!

[GCinDC]

I took some eye candy for you. As it stands it weighs under 52 lbs. Add a light battery pack and this bike has some jumping potential.

nice. skippic reminded me i've got some soul searching to do. what the hell am i doing with this monster wheel anyway. (i'm already married so i don't need it to impress the ladies... though it does seem to turn guys on... ) but seriously... it's an R&D project at the moment. a real learning platform. and sadly, probably too big to be a good jumper, however strong it is.

re spokes, good point henk. i've been planning on using washers from now on too, esp w/ the 12g spokes.

trying to get excited for the hall repair. ebike tester verified one was dead.

if i just yank the drive side side cover (just sealed w/ the dark RTV) - and i wonder if the bearing will stay, as it was sealed to the axle as well as the sidecover - then i can carve out old hall and replace w/ new. maybe if i cut the old legs near the sensor, i can solder the new legs to the old ones. there's not enough slack in the wires to hope to reach the new legs...

i'm tempted to try to leave the oil in there and operate w/ the patient on the bench (in the vice).

but i'm also concerned about old jbweld and sealant grit dropping in and staying in...

we'll see.

time to set the hk monitor/buzzer to 90C! i recommend you do the same.

some clips from the ride w/ skippic, with the (very nice dyno) hill at the end.


@20s WOT no load 4.85A
@24s WOT no load 6A

i'll measure again once it's fixed.

[Skippic]

Nice ride. It was really hot, I'm surprised my halls are OK.

Have you installed the BMS? Any Lipo fires?

Time to finish my fast charger

[Hyena]

Nice vid. That's alot of Harleys!
Was that a drug hand off at 0.05 ?

It's cool to ride with another ebike isn't it ? I was out with a mate the other day (he was on my 5kw hard tail and me on the fighter) and pulling out onto a main road we both gained on fairly slow moving ice cream van. As we came up right behind it on each side I joked we could almost open the back door and help our self. Jack it, like an ebike version of the fast and the furious

You're not having much luck with this motor are you! Another one chalked up to R&D!
And yeah 90 degrees is a good temp for a warning buzzer. In my early days of air cooling tests my motor would quickly get to the mid 80s but rarely cracked 90 - usually only when I got home and stopped. At this point the cover was too hot to keep my hand on for more than a second. This was with 1000w GM hubs running upgraded phase wires and getting ~5kw. I'm testing running a 100 degree thermostat in the main +ve of the hall supply voltage in one of my motors at the moment. It hasn't tripped yet but when it does it'll stop the motor (no worse than a cooked hall stops the motor, atleast you can keep riding home after it cools off!)

[GCinDC]

great to ride with an ebiker, esp when he doesn't run you over, maybe because you drive a bit crazy sometimes...

Was that a drug hand off at 0.05 ?

multimeter. lol. skippic is yet to discover the joy of a CA. so battery capacity is measured by voltage. and in this case, as is always the case with an ebike(?), there was a malfunction. something about his ghetto speed switch:


so, wheel's off. i appreciate that none of you dared ask if there was a leak! the answer is no, there wasn't!
esp not on drive side where it counts:

i guess the new motor charm has worn off some?

and behind door number 3?


interesting to see how the jbweld is working off the hall leg shrinktube:


and here's a funny pic from before the transfusion...

[electr0n]

I wonder if the hot oil had anything to do with the hall failure? From reading posts here I thought the limits were more like around 120c. Having a failure at 100 to 108c, specially with oil cooling is somewhat surprising. You're running 88.8v and 45 amps right?

[GCinDC]

I wonder if the hot oil had anything to do with the hall failure?

me too.

so far all i can tell is that GRN sensor wire is shorted to GND.

may not even have failed. could be wiring...

the operating theatre:

suspect hall:

[GCinDC]

correction: GRN is shorted to the motor housing, not GND...

clean up, procrastinating...

and check this out. it's an impression made by the RTV silicon of the bearing that i scraped from the inside of the sidecover bearing hole/race(?):

what an awesome material!

[GCinDC]

some fun before and afters:

new, just after replacing thermistor with LM35:


after jbweld:


after 1wk(?) running with oil (and surgically exposing suspect hall legs and removing zip tie)


so if the hall sensor wire is shorted to the motor, as indicated by multimeter, i can only deduce that insulation around the wire has melted, torn, and is contacting the motor, either:
- at hall (is that possible?)
- on drive side, somewhere between winding and hole in stator
- at bend, or on disc side, in slot, or at the bearing

i fashioned a drip edge with some gorilla tape and drained the oil in case i have to open the disc side, god forbid:

i just it hard to imagine the wire is cut/melted there, considering the bed of silicon (from before):


i'd hate to unnecessarily remove the hall if the wire is cut elsewhere...

so i'll first untangle all the wires and pick off the jbweld and likely cut the wire near the hole to the other side to see which side the short is on. hopefully it's the hall after all... who knows.

i rode the much neglected GT idrive in as the giant is now up in the air:

[GCinDC]

grn hall sensor wire was shorted somewhere in slot. pulled it in thru the axle (not out):

i sisters a replacement wire, but it wouldn't fit back in and ended up breaking:

just as well. i'd never trust it. so getting ready to redo it. appetizing, no?


you gotta give me a few points for persistence.

[knoxie]

last video was great by the way and yes you are very persistent buddy a lot of folks would have called it a day long ago, your wife is very understanding keep at it though as I reckon you are about to hit the good times with this motor

[Hyena]

The upside is you've have a fairly stand alone product when finished. I think all your trials so far will have scared off alot of people
I reckon you're only 2 more failures away from splurging on a cromotor though

Another option I've been looking to resolve wiring issues is to fit a different bearing with the same OD and a larger ID (with a sleave over the existing axle with the wires running through it). Or alternatively there's a bigger one again available if you skim just 1mm out of the side cover race. I can't remember the model numbers off the top of my head but I looked them up with the guys at my local engineering workshop and they thought it was the best option for getting more wires in there.
DoctorBass has also done something similar with his 5400 he's planning to watercool.
Or keep doing what you're doing and drill a small hole in the opposite axle and feed your additional wires out through there. I'd be tempted to do a small hole through the centre, 9C style though it'd probably be easier to cut a thin slot with an angle grinder and then tidy it up with a dremel. Should be plenty of room for halls and temp wire out one side with the larger phases out the other.

Another option, again along the lines of what doctorbass is doing is to put a donut sort of plate across the hollow of the stator and fill that will oil. The heat conduction wouldn't be as good as straight sloshing around the windings but the heat would still soak through and you'd not have the issue of contaminating your bearings, wiring or halls. You could then go with air cooling as well to have the best of both worlds. If effect you'd be creating a liquid version of the solid cast stator in the 5400s that makes them good for sustained abuse with good heatsinking. The water cooling mods keyne did to his H35 although more elaborate with a radiator and the water being pumped out was along the same lines with a water jacket along this inner stator ring and he documented good cooling results. As someone who likes the best bang for buck result, or in this case the best cooling for the least amount of work/mess/risk this seems like an option worth looking at.

[shorza]

Is this damage caused from the hot oil? Looks like it's even melted the JBWeld.
Will it eventually melt the heatshink/wire covers off? What can be done about this?