BMC Super Trail MTB with rewound Xlyte H4060 motor

[oldhaq]

For my latest e-mtb I'm building from scratch starting with a new frame, a 2008 BMC super trail 01 with active pivot rear suspension

ES member Brettster fabbed the battery box up for me out of 0.9mm stainless. (his latest project is worth a look viewtopic.php?f=6&t=31030&p=531777#p594035)
He's doing ok with half a pinkie
Drive is a xlyte H4060 c/o Hyena
Opened it up to drill out the covers, took some pics showing comparison to an HT

HT left, H4060 right

[oldhaq]

some zippity doo dahs

22s 16ah

Maxxis Minion dual ply Downhills super tacky 40a compound 26x2.7 front and 26x2.5 rear

Will end up with a 24" rim on the rear though, for more torque and acceleration uphill racing

[shorza]

Your setup looks great, but you may want to see what speed you get from the 26" before changing to the 24".

My 4060, only reaches around 55kph @ 20s on 26". Plenty of torque though.

I look forward to watching this build.

[oldhaq]

I hear you but I'm not too worried about what speed I get, it's more about being able to spin the back quick as possible for me these days. Have briefly tried it on the same setup I had with a 24" HT and the HT was a bit faster but the 4060 26" was noticeably quicker

[ohzee]

Damn nice side by side did not realize the difference.

Curious how it sheds heat compared to the HT. Anyway thanks for posting that build is looking nice.

[oldhaq]

Some more bits to go on
Also went for some color co-ordination here, although the frame color is officially chocolate, the orange bits are a fairly close match
Clarks skeletal, 185mm rear, 203mm front

Da Bomb stem, Spank spacers, PZ post, 118mm bottom bracket

FSA crankset 28/38/48T 165mm

Forks will be Rock Shox Sektor RL dual position 110-140mm, and front wheel Halo Combat.
Spent a lot of the weekend working on the bike, just about ready for a good spin.
Hoping to have an easy week of work, as in easy jobs and out early. One of the places I work at is close to excellent mtb trails, got a new tow hitch/wheel mount bike rack I want to try out also.

[Trackman417]

Your are going all out my friend! I'm jealous!
Wish I had someone to make a sheet metal battery box for me
When you were using the 4060 and the 3525, have you had time to look at how much power these motors consume side-by-side?

[oldhaq]

yeah, prob same way I felt with the Huffy I had before this build.
It was a great bike, had the most fun on that than anything else ... best toy I ever had.
It was actually next in line to go to the Tip but thought I'd try my hand at welding, and amazing really that the frame and suspension lasted as long as it did with the thrashing I gave it.
I was happy with it enough to ride it all that time, but at the same time contemplating what my next e-mtb would be...

Battery box - shouldn't be too hard to find a sheet metal shop around that'll make you one up.
I paid Brett $210 for mine, dunno how that compares, but it's certainly worth it for the convenience it gives.

Didn't measure the power draw when I tried the 4060, was about avg 80v x 60a/4800w with the HT, with same controller and batts on the 4060 I couldn't say how differently the controller was feeding the phases. Wouldn't mind knowing the turn count on them, my guess is one more than an HT. The "6" in the pic might be a clue, the HT's have "9x7" and HS's "12x5".

[oldhaq]

Laser cut 16mm stainless clamping torque arm

I've got one for the other side too but the tap snapped inside dammit

Can a tap be drilled out with a cobalt bit?
Other options are to put a thread further up the slot (because of derailleur position vs axle position-axle sits near to end of slot), or I'll weld 2 different sized nuts to the side of the arm then run the bolt through them.

Or shorten the arms and/or extend the slot.
(can anyone tell me why I have trouble sometime placing photos inline, had to use the Insert Img html for these pics)

[t3sla]

very nice torq arms

considering getting them powder coated?

[veloman]

Man, those are huge torque plates! You could cut a lot of excess off them and save a lot of weight. How much do they weigh?

[oldhaq]

Yep, pretty chunky eh
They were originally made for one of Brettster's bikes but he didn't use them. He traded me for the set of Stance tc forks seen in the link earlier.
I will trim them once I'm finally done with fitment, and get them and the battery box powder coated black. (powder coaters about 300 metres down the road round the corner ) might get some bolts done too

I sorted out the right torque arm, cut/ground around the broken off tap and not wanting to take another chance breaking a tap again, drilled a hole straight through and used a b&n.

ta redo.jpg (62.6 KiB) Viewed 2576 times

An old gooseneck clamp came in handy

ta redo 2.jpg (64.69 KiB) Viewed 2576 times

I like this view

ta redo rear.jpg (71.09 KiB) Viewed 2576 times

[oldhaq]

Some pics of the bike

Had been taking it out the forest a few times this last week, lots of rough stuff, km's long hill climbs, pure heaven.
Anyway, I feel the rear isn't right, have a look and see the left cover is loose, screws hanging out. Was able to do them up with a small pair of pliers I had. Started making my way out of the bush but noticed it was loose again a couple km's later. I realised then that the screw threads were rounded. Only reason the wheel stayed together was on each revolution the loosening screws would get knocked back in as they passed the disc brake caliper. It was about 4pm and I was a long way from anywhere so just had to try to keep going to get out by nightfall. About 5.15 I made it to a road just as the motor started to stutter and it was pretty hot but I've had much hotter, so pushed it to the next main road a few km away. I was amazed the motor still got me out of there in the state it was in, and it turns out now the yellow and green phases are shorted to the stator.
Expensive lesson learned: use threadlock
Have already bought some SS countersunk flush head 4x12mm allen drive metal threads to replace the phillips heads.

I fitted the HT from the old bike today, and might eventually put the 35mm high wind super hyena ind torque (s.h.i.t.) motor in, depending if I can get the 4060 rewound for a good price. After riding what I used to think was awesome 24" HT now on the same controller it feels gutless, the 26" 4060 was a lot of work to keep it from flipping, its a damn fine motor and I'd pay more than it cost to get it fixed, and can't buy one in oz atm
So i was depressed for a couple of days there but getting the bike back on the track today put the grin back, even if it was with a pissy ht

[litespeed]

Bummer on the 4060 and good luck getting it back to a running state. So who has the 4060's for sale?

Tom

[Trackman417]

Bummer on the 4060 and good luck getting it back to a running state. So who has the 4060's for sale?

Tom

Hyena has them on sale. Wheather or not he has them in stock is something to think about.

Why don't you try rewinding the motor yourself? It wold be a good experience for you! Its better to know how to rewind a motor when you have a spare then when you don't. And when you would need to rewind a motor you would know what to do .

[oldhaq]

Bummer on the 4060 and good luck getting it back to a running state. So who has the 4060's for sale?

Tom

Hyena has them on sale. Wheather or not he has them in stock is something to think about.

Why don't you try rewinding the motor yourself? It wold be a good experience for you! Its better to know how to rewind a motor when you have a spare then when you don't. And when you would need to rewind a motor you would know what to do .

I've already asked Jay, but I had a feeling it'd be nogo beforehand.
Jay said he'll try kenny for a small run though, if it pans out i'll buy more than one, and sell off every other motor i have.

Have strongly considered rewinding myself, and definitely worth an attempt for this motor. Had a quote of $700 by a pro a while back to do an HT

[Trackman417]

Bummer on the 4060 and good luck getting it back to a running state. So who has the 4060's for sale?

Tom

Hyena has them on sale. Wheather or not he has them in stock is something to think about.

Why don't you try rewinding the motor yourself? It wold be a good experience for you! Its better to know how to rewind a motor when you have a spare then when you don't. And when you would need to rewind a motor you would know what to do .

I've already asked Jay, but I had a feeling it'd be nogo beforehand.
Jay said he'll try kenny for a small run though, if it pans out i'll buy more than one, and sell off every other motor i have.

Have strongly considered rewinding myself, and definitely worth an attempt for this motor. Had a quote of $700 by a pro a while back to do an HT

Just think about it in the case of a car. If the repair is more than the car...... drop the car and get a new one or fix it yourself
You should give it a shot, at least you could say you tried.
Come on be a man!

[oldhaq]

Just think about it in the case of a car. If the repair is more than the car...... drop the car and get a new one or fix it yourself

The repair is actually more than the cost of just the motor, not the whole bike.
Still, I'm blowing a lot more bike motors than car motors so rewinding myself is definitely worth it monetarily, as well as learning a new skill.
Just had another look at it, counted 9 wire strands/phase, so that might be a "9" not a "6" written on it. I was thinking it was wound 10x6, but more likely to be 9x7, which'd be better copper fill-wise, but will look at doing it 8x8 to make it really pump

[oldhaq]

Been to see a couple more motor rewinders this week, one didn't give me a quote, and the other wasn't too keen, said that's a lot of work and said $1200, but he did give me a lead where he buys his wire from. I did some work sort of near there today so went to check it out afterwards. I figured I'd just try to get the same gauge wire, they measured the diameter of the wire in the stator and said it's fairly close to 0.53mm. I asked for the highest temp rating they had which was 200c continuous, bought a 5kg/11lb spool for about $100, which should be about 2500 metres long, I'm guessing enough for a few motors at least. also got a m² NPN nomex insulating paper for the slots and silver solder.

They also gave me this wire size chart which is handy

Next step is to unwind the stator and sus out the pattern I need to follow, please anyone chime in and tell me what to expect here, cos I don't want to unwind the lot, I just want do a bit then power-cut the rest off. I also need to know do I do each phase at a time, or each slot at a time.

I figure since these 4060's are apparently 9x7 turn, I'd like to redo it with 8 turns. I might run more volts at some stage to compensate for the lower top end speed.

[Trackman417]

Next step is to unwind the stator and sus out the pattern I need to follow, please anyone chime in and tell me what to expect here, cos I don't want to unwind the lot, I just want do a bit then power-cut the rest off. I also need to know do I do each phase at a time, or each slot at a time.

motor hall side.jpg

I figure since these 4060's are apparently 9x7 turn, I'd like to redo it with 8 turns. I might run more volts at some stage to compensate for the lower top end speed.

You do each slot at a time. Look at farfles "rewinding a hubmotor build thread. Should be a lot of useful tips in there.

[oldhaq]

I'd like to get started on it this weekend.
I suppose not a lot of members have done hub rewinds, I found it funny when I had to explain to pro rewinders when they asked "what's it out of"
Some more pics of the task at hand..

edit: thanks, amazing I haven't read that thread before

[oldhaq]

I need to unwind

pina colada.jpg (22.63 KiB) Viewed 1310 times

i wish..that'll have to wait
ok, so this type then

the xlyte slot insulaors (right) seem pretty crappy and plasticky compared to the nomex (foreground).
I ended up getting some 0.22mm NKN (nomex/kapton/nomex) nomex rated at 220c, from the rewinders that didn't give a quote to rewind, a sq metre for free .bamboo spacers on left.

[Trackman417]

I need to unwind

pina colada.jpg

i wish..that'll have to wait
ok, so this type then

unwound stator.jpg

the xlyte slot insulaors (right) seem pretty crappy and plasticky compared to the nomex (foreground).
I ended up getting some 0.22mm NKN (nomex/kapton/nomex) nomex rated at 220c, from the rewinders that didn't give a quote to rewind, a sq metre for free .bamboo spacers on left.

insulators.jpg

Your actually rewinding that motor?! You go Man! Please keep us updated oh, and good luck

[oldhaq]

I did a trial fit of 72 (9x8) strands in a slot today, it's possible but extremely difficult to get just one slot right, let alone 51 of them, and you wouldn't know if some weren't right until you came around to do a neighboring phase - and that's also without a bamboo spacer to close it off. So I'm sticking to the original plan of 8x8. The wire I'm using has an actual diameter of 0.57mm, the original is 0.55mm, i reckon you'd still have a real hard time of it with 9x .56, maybe around .50 but it's only gonna end up a similar copper fill to 8 strands of .57 anyway.

I didn't have time to add on my last post that I was checking for continuity on each faulty phase as I unraveled each tooth until the short went, to pinpoint the fault. Sure enough there was obvious signs of the insulation failing in 2 shorted slots. The copper had some bulbous accumulation I'd say from arcing, can't find the spots now in the rats nest to take a pic.

insul hole.jpg (40.02 KiB) Viewed 1292 times

this one has a hole each side going straight through

insul hole 2.jpg (35.52 KiB) Viewed 1292 times

[scriewy]

Maaaaan you'r such an oldhaq pfff....

YES YES REWIND the motor !
do it ! Do it !

karma also rewinded i think 9c motor.

did you remember the pattern while unwinding ?

here's german winding calculator by number of magnets and coils tells you what's you'r pattern from andjees rewind thread
http://powerditto.de/bewicklungsrechner.htm

hope no misspels copied it manually.

Soon i'l join the brotherhood of rewinders !

just need to decide on rim.