Voicecoil's red, fully rigid commuter

[voicecoils]

another day another test

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Last set of fresh nylon gears!!! 36v only for now. Packed with moly grease (3%) we'll see how they go...

I managed to mount my CETMA rack on the read bike without any fork modifications. I just used two U-bolt w/ plates and screws. Then put the rack strut on and screws a nylock nut on top. I'll see how it holds up to vibrations and loads. If it slips down I'll look to a better solution.

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I temporary mounted the 36-72v 35A Crystalyte controller (in non-slip rubbery stuff) to the vertical part of the rack, and the cycle analyst too.

I had a run last night with 36v10a headway pack in a bag occy strapped down on the rack. The bike handled fine with the weight, just a bit heavy on the steering. But standing still it really does want to fall over (thanks to the fork angle) and it is a MEGA pain to carry up or down stairs. (queue Mark_A_W saying: "I told you so")

More on the actual test run in the next post...

[voicecoils]

I hooked the analogue Crystalyte 36-72v 35a controller up to the bafang and tried to follow Nogwin's wiring:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... ing#p93646

My sample of a BAFANG motor (from knuckles) to a Crystalyte analog controller 36-72v 35A looked like this:
Motor Controller
reverse jumper open

My motor wiring combo
Motor Phase -- Controller
B B
G Y
Y G

Hall
Motor Controller
pos pos
neg neg
B B
G Y
Y G

Other combos I tried did not get the motor moving (except one where it went backwards).

The combo I settled on worked but did seem a bit noisy and had high vibrations. I took it out on the street and as soon as I hit the throttle I was thinking "what the heck!". The whole bike was buzzing like crazy. The first thing I found was a loose water bottle cage bolt. A lot quieter after that. BUT still noisy. I proceeded to electrical tape down everything I could think of that might be making noise, brake lines etc... Controller and CA seemed very firmly mounted.

Today I'm going to go through the wiring combos again, and might take the rack back off and see if it is just transmitting vibrations through to the frame and causing all the noise. If so I'll try to isolate it with some bits of old bicycle tubes.

I only used 0.8Ah before I stopped riding. Too worried about the nylon gears and controller mis-wiring. It was loud enough that I didn't want to hit the throttle when passing people for fear of scaring them

It's raining today so a good chance to check my 36 wiring combos! But...I'm wondering if the crystaylte controller is just not the best match for the bafang. It does work, but could it be causing the bafang to operate with high vibrations?

[voicecoils]

just checked wiring.

Nogwin's wiring runs my motor smoothly, but backwards!

Will try Docnjoj's wiring now:

Halls are the same but he ran the phases:

Motor -- Controller
B Y
G G
Y B

EDIT: DOC's work! but it is loud. I'm going to try to sort out where the noise is coming from. Sounds like a power drill drilling screws into 2x4s. I'm thinking it must have been Doc's wiring that I ran with last night...

[johnrobholmes]

Could just be a loud ass controller. Is it harmonic frequencies or popping frequencies?

[voicecoils]

with doc's wiring I cranked the throttle no load...

and blew a 10A fuse

Before I had 10A max current set on the CA, this time I took it off. Seems like I'm having the same problem doc had. Dammit.

I'd like to know how nogwin has his set up. maybe I can get him to double check his wiring.

[voicecoils]

Ok, I've found the superior combo. (at least I think so! )

Nogwin's wiring with the 36-72v 35a crystalyte analogue controller jumpered to reverse (my key switch is broken).

Runs smoooooth at under 1A no load. DAMN the rain!

[voicecoils]

Could just be a loud ass controller. Is it harmonic frequencies or popping frequencies?

I would have described it as harmonic (noise from the motor). However I don't know what a popping frequency might sound like.

10A+ no load is just wack.

I think the combo I described in the above post is the answer. Road testing will tell for sure. I suspect nogwin has his switch turned to reverse or jumper jumpered, but we're running the same controller motor, and wiring now. mine is working with the controller in "reverse"

Motor sounds much smoother. Before it was sending vibrations through the whole frame.

[Freddyflatfoot]

VC,
I would be interested to hear how you like the Bafang at 36v.
I am more than happy to run mine at 36v, but then mine is a 24v model overvolted to 36v!
Cruise speeds above 30 kph are fine for me for my commute, and by keeping the speed down a bit, I also keep a tighter reign on my whr usage.

[johnrobholmes]

You should be able to swap two phase wires, and two sensor wires to achieve proper rotation and synch without the reverse on the controller. If you got it to work, no matter though!


A popping frequency is just that- a popping sound. When a controller is firing the motor wrong it can occasionally let out a POP when the phases un-sync and re-sync because of load changes.

[Nogwin]

I just checked the controller and the key switch is at the horizontal position pointing to red mark.

When I was getting the phase wiring figured out several months ago, the combo I posted was the only one to work smooth. Others made a crazy noise and amp load was 10+A at a few mph. So the wiring I have and the key switch in that position works well. There's absolutely nothing but smooth motor accel all the way to wide open throttle. No unusual vibrations or anything like that.

I hope this helps

btw - I should mention the 66v is really good for commuting and I get good acceleration thru 30mph. At 48v I was just at 20-21mph, and needed more for safer travels. I really hope your gears survive. Also plan to pull the motor apart and photograph my gears after 2000 miles which should be in a few weeks. (I ride about 50miles round trip 5 days per week)

Nog

[voicecoils]

I just checked the controller and the key switch is at the horizontal position pointing to red mark.

When I was getting the phase wiring figured out several months ago, the combo I posted was the only one to work smooth. Others made a crazy noise and amp load was 10+A at a few mph. So the wiring I have and the key switch in that position works well. There's absolutely nothing but smooth motor accel all the way to wide open throttle. No unusual vibrations or anything like that.

I hope this helps

btw - I should mention the 66v is really good for commuting and I get good acceleration thru 30mph. At 48v I was just at 20-21mph, and needed more for safer travels. I really hope your gears survive. Also plan to pull the motor apart and photograph my gears after 2000 miles which should be in a few weeks. (I ride about 50miles round trip 5 days per week)

Nog

Sweet, yes it helps. My switch was broken when I bought it. I think "open" is forward, "connected" is reverse. Inside the controller is a little 2 pin plug that connects to the key. So in one position the key closes the connection (reverse) and the other position is open (forward). I don't know which is which regarding red/green.

It would be useful to know if others want to replicate the setup, however I'm fairly convinced now that we are running the exact same wiring. I had to use a hard drive jumper connector to jump my controller. I think docnjoj's wiring was not correct, and it matches your description and my own experience.

If the rain stops I will go try out the bike again If it doesn't, I might head out anyways!

66v does sound sweet. My current batteries can't do that (36v or 72v) and I do need to get some use from them before I invest in more. Your commute sounds full on. I'm very interested to see photos of your bike and the gears. If they've survived I will be quite amazed. The gap between 66v and ~80v is decent though, perhaps it made all the difference.

How do you tackle hills? Wide open throttle & peddling like mad?

[docnjoj]

Interesting about the jumper in the Crystalyte 20 A 36-72 volt with problems. I will take mine apart today and give a looksee! If it works, it would be great to have a real backup controller! My controller box has no switches or other proturberances of any kind, just wires coming out! Kool, voicecoils!
otherDoc

[voicecoils]

Interesting about the jumper in the Crystalyte 20 A 36-72 volt with problems. I will take mine apart today and give a looksee! If it works, it would be great to have a real backup controller! My controller box has no switches or other proturberances of any kind, just wires coming out! Kool, voicecoils!
otherDoc

Hi Docnjoj, I don't know if yours will be the same on the inside but here's mine:

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You can see the empty 2 pin socket next to the 5 wire socket and a little chip. It's called "S2" on mine. I just popped a jumper in it. Worked a charm with Nogwin's wiring. I think you'll be impressed

[voicecoils]

Ok, finally got a decent ride in, at 36v nominal. Not sure how many km I traveled total but I closely estimate ~20km. I consumed 138.7Wh according to my CA or 3.7Ah. Pack started at around 42v and resting voltage 5min after I finished my ride was 39.4v My charger took around just under an hour before going into the float/balance stage. My kill-a-watt says it drew 140Wh from the wall. I know my charger and battery are not 98.5% efficient so either the CA or kill-a-watt is slightly off.

I checked the gears afterwards, the look minty fresh and slimed up nicely with the Moly grease. Hope they stay that way!

I had a 30A fuse in line which I did not blow. The cycle analyst reported Amax = 69.3A which I do not think is correct. I did not witness higher then 22A on the CA, though I was not looking at it the whole time obviously.

At 36V I only seem to get up to around 25kph. Not very fast, though I can pedal it up a bit beyond. Once it hits max speed the current draw really drops, down to just a few amps. I can see the appeal of upping voltages now, otherwise you do hit a wall with the speed. My max speed was ~42 kph but that was going downhill. I peddled from starts and kept the amps under 10A most of the time.

The internal gear hub is great. I can be grinding out the top gear and when I come up to a stoplight I just brake, stop. Then shift down to an appropriate gear and it's ready to go on the green light. It's a great partner to the hubmotor.

I'm liking the front rack and the controller mounting. It's very convenient.

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With the battery pack in a backpack (sitting on the rack when riding) I can leave the bike locked up outside. It doesn't draw much attention at all. I've got lots of wiring I haven't cut yet, so it's just coiled in the little bag on the rack. Works fine for now.

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Changed from the ubolts to these rubber mounted P-clamps. They work MUCH better. I went about 15km on the u-bolts and they slid down a bit. If they had slid down more it would have wedged between the fork and the hub. That would have been a disaster.

[voicecoils]

The last 5 km I had my GPS with me. Here's the output of speed & elevation graphed vs distance:

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I felt like I was going faster, but oh well. 36v does have limitations. I'd much prefer to be able to stay in the 30-40kph zone more of the time. I should do the trip in reverse and see how it compares.

Overall I'm quite happy. Frame feels great at speed, even fully rigid. Even with the battery weight over the front wheel. Getting the batteries in the frame will be a big step forward. 36v is fine for now. I eagerly await metal gears. I'd like torque arms, a front disc mount (and disc holes drilled in the hub) and a way to read speed with the plug in CA. Anyone know how to wire in a magnet & sensor speed pickup to the plug in CA?

[Mathurin]

Damn dawg, that ride looks fat with the CETMA! Ridin' on yo new pimp throne, haterz gonna be jealous how yo bitchez riding in style.

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[voicecoils]

Damn dawg, that ride looks fat with the CETMA! Ridin' on yo new pimp throne, haterz gonna be jealous how yo bitchez riding in style.

Hmm there are a lot of small dogs carried around in designer bags in my neck of the woods, but I don't know that I want to get down with the trend.

Maybe I need a hub motor with chrome spinners?

The CETMA rack is sweet but in hindsite I think the price is rather expensive, even as a handmade item.

[voicecoils]

Latest iteration:

Additions: rear rack and larger chainring (from 32t to 46t). Not pictured is my 1.7kg Kryptonite New Yorker 3000, but you can see the mount for it on the rear triangle near the seat.

Using 1/2" track chain and 1/2" track 16t freewheel + non-ramped/pinned DH chainring.
With my tire size, crank length and gearing with the Alfine hub, at a cadence of 80 rpm I have a speed range (pedal only) of 15kph to 46kph according to the Sheldon Brown Internal Gear Calculator. It's pretty much perfect if the 30km ride I did today is any indication.

Soon to try 72v again, but will limit current to 10A with the cycle analyst and a fuse. Can't afford to keep buying new gears!
See here for performance calcs: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7232

Battery feels fine on the rear rack strapped down in the bag. ~5kg with the bag, fuse and wiring. I'll put the second battery on the front. Plan is to free up both racks by getting batteries into the main triangle as soon as I can. Bike is a porky ~22kg without batteries or lock, and a pain to lug up the stairs.

Easy emergency disconnect on the top tube, just yank the powerpoles

36v_redbike.jpg

ignore the garbage and messy kitchen. I'm in love with velcro straps.

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[pwbset]

Soon to try 72v again, but will limit current to 10A with the cycle analyst and a fuse.

Probably already know this, but remember that the CA will pulse way above and below before finally settling on 10a. If you ask Justin he might be able to get you faster response adjustment settings. It's the same with the CA speed control. Still wouldn't floor it if you want to keep that last set of gears non-peanut buttery. That's a sweet looking ride. Good luck.

[voicecoils]

Probably already know this, but remember that the CA will pulse way above and below before finally settling on 10a. If you ask Justin he might be able to get you faster response adjustment settings. It's the same with the CA speed control. Still wouldn't floor it if you want to keep that last set of gears non-peanut buttery. That's a sweet looking ride. Good luck.

So far I've seen the current limit stay within +-0.50A, which seems like pretty reasonable control to me. If I blow the 10A fuse, I'll know it can stay above 10A for too long. But, who knows even 15A might be OK if the bike is ridden carefully or if the crystalyte controller has a smoother throttle then the 72v28A old ecrazyman controller.

Cheers for the bike complement

[voicecoils]

I've done 60-70km total now. Just checked my hubmotor again and the gears are looking alright. They've slung much of the moly grease off the teeth but haven't shredded yet.

I road ~5km today at 80V with the current limited to 10A. This lead me to realise that the CA's max speed setting of 99kph was causing the controller to cut power to the motor at around 23kph actual speed. I think the same thing was happening when I was operating at ~40v. It explains why I was getting nice assistance up hills and off the line but a piss weak top speed. I've started a thread about that here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7271

Now I'm curious to find out what my real top speed is at 40v and 80v respectively on level ground. Hopefully I can find this out tomorrow.

[voicecoils]

checked the gears again, they're fine and still greased up well.

One thing I've noticed with 3 gear assembly is that it is not fixed in position with relation to the ring gear. In other words, it can wobble around and therefore no longer mesh with the ring gear on the same parallel plane. If that makes sense. One would hope, that when the motor is bolted together that everything is held in place nice and straight and tight, but there may be wiggle room to go out of alignment, who knows...

I've made three youtube videos. The first shows the motor only (no gears or freewheel mechanism) in my dropouts. Hubmotor case/wheel and gears can be seen in the background. First I throttle up the motor at ~40v, this consumes 24W and registers as 33.3 kph on the cycle analyst. Using the 1666mm wheel diameter trick programed into the CA (which outputs speed in kph as 10s of RPMs) that gives an 1100-1110 RPM wide open throttle (WOT). Then in the same clip, I add a second pack in parallel for ~80W. It shows 75W power, 65.7kph, and 2210-2220 RPM. In both cases the motor sounds quite nice and smooth to me. With no mechanical reduction this is the best (quietest) the bafang will sound like:

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fdxLmGQGEU&fmt=18

Ok, next up 40v in the wheel. First I throttle up and then down very slowly and smoothly. Then I go straight to WOT and dump it back to zero. Listen to the mechanical sounding clunking. I suggest you stop the video at 1:55. My girlfriend suggests it's blindingly boring to watch you may agree:

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3yQi2DxZq0&fmt=18

Lastly, 80v in the wheel. Same tests as above.

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwTkL1QPM9I&fmt=18

Although the wheel wobbles a bit in the video, it's extremely close to dead true. I had a bike shop true it on their truing stand and with the bike upside down in the and looking at the rim passing through the brakes side to side and up-down movement is very very small.

I'm curious about the mechanical clunking. Gears, freewheel? I'd like the motor as quiet as possible. I'm tempted to pack it with more grease but I don't want too much slinging into the motor windings.

[shinyballs]

Cooool video! especially at 80v... Your center frame triangle is begging for batteries.

[voicecoils]

Cooool video! especially at 80v... Your center frame triangle is begging for batteries.

Cheers. I agree completely about the main triangle. At the start of december I'll have more free time and will be attacking both bikes full bore. Can't wait!

I've noticed the motor/gears really only sounds happy when they're going full bore WOT and not being stressed. So at ~40V this happens between 20-25 kph on gentle hills, 24-27kph on the flats, and 25-30kph on gentle down hills (all with light peddling). I have to moderate my peddling to keep the motor in the "sweet spot" while WOT. It starts whining below which is not stealthy and sounds crap IMO and if I peddle past the "sweet spot" then power levels drop under 100W and the motor can't spin fast enough to do useful work.

[rguy56]

Your wheel can be perfectly true, but bike tires are rarely, if ever, perfect. Honestly, I think that's the reason for the oscillation.

I'm a fanatic for a true wheel, and I see that same effect. Some tires are "truly awful". Yuk-yuk.

Bob