10kw Carbon build possible????

richdeloup

100 W
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
258
Location
UK somewhere between the centre and the edge
Here's a completely experimental built that I'm trying.
I'm pretty interested in the power to weight ratio thing and the law of diminishing returns. i.e The fatter/heavier the bike, the more power it needs to drive it, so it has to be even fatter and heavier to take the extra motor/battery weight etc.
As it looks like battery technology will do a long jump fairly soon, we will hopefully have two exciting possibilities. (a) we will be able to go further distances on our existing builds, or/and (b) we will be able to reduce weight and still get a usable distance.

Bear with me on this, I don't claim to be any sort of expert, so am open to suggestions and ridicule:)

The plan is to modify a blank UD (undirectional) carbon frame into a bike which still looks like a bike and to road register it in the UK (legal requirement) as a motor bike. I'm aiming for 10kw but may fall a bit short??...
Here is what I have so far, It will be taken apart and rebuilt properly so Ill try to photograph it as much as I can to anyone interested?
Cheers, Rich
 

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Let's see... 20 times the intended power, using a frame that can only tolerate forces it was specifically constructed to tolerate?

Good luck with that. You'll definitely need it, unless you develop good judgment instead.
 
i wouldnt put that much power on anything less than steel lol a carbon frame would likely snap under the weight of the battery required to power it further than the end of your street, ive reprogrammed my controller to legal power from 1260w and on a 36v 24ah battery which weighs around 15kg i still only get 40 miles at legal power at full power this was reduced to about 20 miles so x that power by 8 and you will need a seriously big battery to get any useful mileage out of it and my battery made mincemeat of an aluminum rack rated to carry 25kg, you would likely need around 60kg of lifepo4 just to cover 10 miles 1 bump and you are likely doin the faceplant into the tarmac and seeking out a nice new steel frame lol
 
richdeloup, let me answer to your thread question:

Yes Possible !! 8)

DONE already!

My secret project! :wink:

100% carbon fiber frame! with 16L of battery room :mrgreen:.. in fact you could put like 5kWh of lithium cells into it !

SPECIALY MADE FOR THE REAL EBIKE POWER REQUEST !!

I have Equiped it with :

Adaptto 12kW
Zero 1.8 kWh battery 22s1p ( an original 28s1p Zero Motorcycle ZF2.8 pack splitted in two half for 22s)
5302 motor

60T front sproket made to be able to pedal even at 80km/h!!.

400A 92V :twisted:

The frame is undestructible !! some specialist that tested it say it is way too much strong!! :shock:... that sound very good to me!!!

btw dont pay attention to the rediculous rear tire... it's because i just blown my rear motocross 16 x 3.5 tire after too much tire burn out demo! I only had this little 2.25 x 20 to replace it yet... lol

More détails coming soom about that insane frame kit !!

btw... it has nothing to do with steel or aluminum frame covered with " carbon fiber" vynil!! it's a thick 100% carbon fiber frame battery box!!

Stay tuned!

Doc
 

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Let's see... 20 times the intended power, using a frame that can only tolerate forces it was specifically constructed to tolerate
1 bump and you are likely doin the faceplant into the tarmac and seeking out a nice new steel frame lol

Right, now I determined this will work;)

I have a special ingredient, in the name of Alumilite!
So, the rear triangle has been opened to just over 3" to take M/C tyres and filled with a CF/Alumilite mix, then wrapped again with C.F. It seems to be tough as hell at the moment...
The hollow top tube and seat post tube will have all the cables routed through first and then filled with Alumilite and some sort of strengthening fibres (experimenting with what), which I reckon will make it bomb proof. The down tube has been opened up and will have a base layer of C/F rods and cables encased in High temp Alumilite with an aluminium U section top for charging, again wrapped in extra layers of C/F. All this will obviously add to the weight, somewhat defeating the purpose, however the solid structure will be at least 50% cabling and its nice not to have to be on the end of an angle grinder all day:)

More pics of dismantled frame to follow.....
 
Battery wise, I realised that 80% of my rides were less than 10miles. So found it stupid to be lugging a huge unnecessary pack around and building a frame to hold it.
I plan to be able to take a couple of folding 5000mA packs in a rucksac to be able to quickly replace if/when I run out of steam.

Where I live, there are petrol stations every 5mins and nearly all now have free charging points; I just need to find a way of utilizing them??
 
ridethelightning said:
Thats fully sick Doc. im in love!
but wheres the cromotor? :D

...best frame I've seen yet... and I've got wood too.
 
Loving this frame, very excited to hear more about it......


Kudos
 
I think to answer your question properly is that can't take a normal carbon frame and put 10kw on it. If your going to custom made a frame for that purpose go for it, like Doc did. On the same note, saving weight on the frame is on way to go but you also could do it with a different motor ( mid-drive). I'm using a 4.3 kilo rc motor and I can pull 15 kw peak. mostly you should thank about your need in real life. Riding a 10kw bike is note something to take lightly if your don't have some kind of experience with hot rod ebike.

Btw it crazy fun :evil:
 

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@boisrondevens
That's a lovely looking build:) Do you have the model of the motor, Id be interested to check it out?

I've ridden supermotos for years until I had 4 stolen and hence getting into this; So have experience of riding powerful bikes, not too much with hotrodded e-bikes but rest assured, Ill be taking it easy and testing each aspect pretty closely as I go.

I've yet to decide on motor controller set up yet. The components on the bike at the moment were off an old build and I threw them on as I couldn't wait to sit on it! Also wanted to test for stress points etc but may not be the set up that Ill eventually use?...

I will be using Patterson planetary cranks and 22" BMX rims which have been tested and seem to be pretty strong for now.

I have an Agni and a Crown hanging around but I think they may both be one (or two) steps too far this build.
 
*subbed* :D

and dont give a ***** of people they dont have any experience of anything.
carbon is the best material you can get/build when theres stiffness needed.

you can do everything with it....except last over 10 years and wreck some gaps in it :p

@DOC

*Speechless....

did you have a build thread from that "frame"?
 
Doctorbass said:
richdeloup, let me answer to your thread question:

Yes Possible !! 8)

DONE already!

My secret project! :wink:

100% carbon fiber frame! with 16L of battery room :mrgreen:.. in fact you could put like 5kWh of lithium cells into it !

SPECIALY MADE FOR THE REAL EBIKE POWER REQUEST !!

I have Equiped it with :

Adaptto 12kW
Zero 1.8 kWh battery 22s1p ( an original 28s1p Zero Motorcycle ZF2.8 pack splitted in two half for 22s)
5302 motor

60T front sproket made to be able to pedal even at 80km/h!!.

400A 92V :twisted:

The frame is undestructible !! some specialist that tested it say it is way too much strong!! :shock:... that sound very good to me!!!

btw dont pay attention to the rediculous rear tire... it's because i just blown my rear motocross 16 x 3.5 tire after too much tire burn out demo! I only had this little 2.25 x 20 to replace it yet... lol

More détails coming soom about that insane frame kit !!

btw... it has nothing to do with steel or aluminum frame covered with " carbon fiber" vynil!! it's a thick 100% carbon fiber frame battery box!!

Stay tuned!

Doc

Damn Doc, this is the sickest, gnarliest, badassest, CF frame on planet earth. Should have known you had something like this in your stable. AWESOME!

@Richdeloup, there you have it, CF can be used for ebike construction. Don't worry about Chalo's insight, he thinks 14g spokes build stronger wheels then 10g spokes. Chalo is a glass is 3/4 empty instead of 1/4 full type of person. . :mrgreen:
 
carbon is not stiff it is flexible hence why a carbon frame feels smoother to ride as it absorbs some of the shock, it is after all plastic and cloth, it is strong for its weight but is not stronger than steel unless it is made much thicker than equivalent steel and even then its strength only lies in tensile strength it will not take impact, shock or abrasion like steel will,
tbh i dont really see the point in using carbon for a 10kw electric bike which is going to have a heavy motor and battery as what difference is the weight saved on the frame going to make? i would rather have the peace of mind that its not suddenly going to snap in 2 when hitting a heavy bump at speed, if it is just for the look of carbon then i would box the steel frame in it, this would also reduce the cost rather significantly.
im not saying a carbon frame couldnt be used but a carbon bicycle frame would not be sufficient to carry the extra weight in the majority of cases, you would need to look at something designed for a motorcycle and even when they use a carbon frame for a motorcycle it is used in conjunction with other weight saving parts in the engine and so forth.
the docs bike is of course very nice indeed but is only part carbon and that which is carbon is designed in such a way that it will have more strength than the average carbon bike frame but the same look could be achieved with a steel internal frame and i dont think the extra weight will make any significant difference on a 10kw ebike
 
carbon is not stiff it is flexible hence why a carbon frame feels smoother to ride as it absorbs some of the shock

Seriously? You have to talk a bit more in depth to make sense of the materials. All C. fiber fabric is not alike. Some is much stiffer/ stronger than others. Fiber to resin ratio? Resin types? Fiber orientation / direction/ weave? Vibration dampening should not be confused with stiffness. Even very stiff materials when made in extremely thin sections will flex significantly. Too many factors to be so general regarding off road carbon frames which are typically very over built.
 
dont give a ***** of people they dont have any experience of anything
he thinks 14g spokes build stronger wheels then 10g spokes. Chalo is a glass is 3/4 empty instead of 1/4 full type of person

Each to their own I guess, gotta be thick skinned on here! Its good to have conflicting views floating about sometimes, only one way to find out what works and what doesnt; build build build:)
 
Nice construction.

Headtube angle looks steep? Is it in the spec?
 
Samd said:
Nice construction.

Headtube angle looks steep? Is it in the spec?

If you are talking about my build, the angle is normal it's due to the rear wheel too small!! :lol:

Doc
 
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