Hyena's e-bike builds (now with HD video)

[Hyena]

Hey isn't that motor from hyenas beach cruiser sale thread... How did you do that?....

Nope, don't think so...
It's an 18" scooter motor, I did (do) have it up for sale but no one has taken any interest in it. I was going to make a hotted up kick scooter with it but I've got too many other projects on at the moment.

Maybe a playing card and a clothes peg in the spokes would work for noisemaking...

Yeah I said that in the youtube comments - oldskool works too! Though you can't turn that on or off with the flick of a handlebar switch

[ROG130]

ha love it now we can have ebikes sound like v8s but where to stick sub size speaker ?

[sn0wchyld]

Well, what about taking the IR filter from another device and putting it on the GoPro?

If I could find something that had a thin flexible film lens I'd be all for it, no such luck searching so far.

In other news, it was a slow rainy day here and I got bored...
(prompted by discussion in another thread about not being able to hear ebikes coming)



Also I had a near miss with the angle grinder yesterday. Luckily I only had a flap wheel on it but it could have still ended in tears.
I was sanding back the covers on a H35 when the vibration shook the cover loose from my hands. I tried to catch it as it fell and as I did the edge of the spinning flap wheel caught my jumper (sweater) and promptly jammed the grinder. Luckily it didn't have much guts my jumper was thick and baggy enough to clog and jam it. Smoke poured out in the few seconds it took for me to yank the cord but it still worked afterwards and I didn't lose any skin so all good! I blame my pain meds for the dulled senses
Of course I snapped a photo before freeing myself

grinder.jpg

The covers came out nice though

sanded-H35.jpg

lol, im so trying this! I wonder what it'd sound like on a 8085 or similar? what size speaker was it? hehe, gonna be interesting having that sound while clicking though the gears!

on a side note, does anyone know how the inductance of a speaker compares to a motor? any chance of damage to a controller with a single phase having a inbalanaced inductance? (paralleling inductors halves their 'size' right?)
edit, sorry, not halves, but you add their phasor admittance right?


and damn, lucky break on the grinder mate!! betcha that got the heart pumping!!



ps
grats on the 100th page! woo!

[GCinDC]

no GAY in the title, but what's not to like about...

[Hyena]

haha I missed that earlier. I actually have quad train horns in my car. I'm tempted to throw them on my bike for a laugh and go teach a lesson to people on bike paths who like to walk 3 wide and won't move over

In other news I got a bit of work done on my modded diamondback tonight.

DB1.jpg (160.73 KiB) Viewed 331 times

I'm quite happy with how neat I'll be able to make the controller wiring. I was going to drill a hole in teh other end of the case and reroute the phase and halls wires out that end but in the end couldn't be bothered and just ran them down the side. I'll put some braided cable sheath over it and it'll look neat enough. The rest of the wires disappear straight inside the frame as shown. I'll still put something over the immediate wiring exit before it enters the frame. All the standard plugs are still on the end, inside the frame. I'm tempted to cut off all the leads and resolder them but it's a bit of a task and if a throttle or I need to trouble shoot it's nice to have replacement parts plug and play.
Not sure how I'll configure the battery connectors yet.

DB-controller.jpg (157.75 KiB) Viewed 331 times

I only had 5 6S lipo packs laying around so just took it for a test spin on 12S and it still goes quite hard. None of my bikes have run under 18S in about 2 years so I was pleasantly surprised at the acceleration it had.
Next up, torque arms and sorting a battery charging/discharging connection. I'm tempted to go with my usual 6 pin anderson block but I'm quite short of space inside the frame I might be pushing my luck to fit all the wiring.

[Scruffoid]

I think i have a smaller chainring for the front here if you want it LOL. Looks good thou nice and neat matey!

[Hyena]

Heh yeah I have a 46 or 48t here I was going to put on but the stud pattern doesn't bolt up to the single speed spider so I just threw on this one (a spare from my stealth fighter) Should I fit a schlumpf though I'll be able to happily pedal along at 50-60km/hr with that chainring

In other news, I'm pushing ahead with my scratch built custom frame I have in the works. I tried for a few hours to draw it all up in google sketchup but having never used it before ended up getting the shits with the whole 3d space thing and it chucking new elemets I added all over the shop and doing weird stretching of the panels I touched together when I tried to resize or move them. (if anyone is good with sketchup and feels like modelling it for me that'd be rad!) So I went oldskool with a pen, paper and a cardboard box I was going to jump straight to a full suspension one but decided the sensible option was to cut my teeth of custom frame fabrication with a hard tail.

Unless last minute changes of mind occur or for reasons of construction or functional akwardness this is pretty close to how I'll do it

H1.jpg (112.21 KiB) Viewed 284 times

H1-Batt.jpg (125.87 KiB) Viewed 284 times

As (perhaps not so obviously) shown the frame will hold 9x 6S5ah lipo packs - enough for 24S2P or 18S3P. I'll most likely run 18S3P.
There's a single 6S pack at the bottom so the frame tapers narrow enough to use a standard bottom brack then they're 2 wide and 3 long up to the neck with the final group being 2 wide and 2 heigh.
The controller will mount internally for a clear external look and will use the entire frame as heat sink. Shown here is a 12 fet but at 18 fet will easily fit along the top tube. Beyond the back of the controller the top bar tapers back to seat post thickness so the frame is nice and thing between your legs. I haven't settled on an angle for the top tube yet but as show there's plenty of room above the top of the lipo pack and beneath the controller for fitting a DC converter for lights or what ever. The orange and red squares would be the charge port and anything else I decide to have externally - screen for lipo monitors perhaps, switches, USB port etc
There'll be a single large door on the under side for adding the batteries - so from the top and sides it looks neat and clean

H1-full.jpg (109.84 KiB) Viewed 284 times

aaand and artists impression of how the full thing will look.
Yeah, the rear is blacktrail-esq but I wanted a fairly vertical rear section for running LED tail lights (also possible on the back of the seat tube as shown) I also want to make it a bit different looking to the standard triangle frame hard tail. And I think the squarish rear goes well with the boxy main frame section. And in keeping with my goals - look at all that triangle space ! Nothing says "this is clearly a bicycle officer" like a nice hollow triangle (and it leaves room for easily adding more capacity with an external booster pack)

[sn0wchyld]

love it mate.

is there going to be a way to access the inside of the top tube? also, how bout making the top tube just a dab larger, for an extra few packs/small onboard charger or something? taking it further, how bout making all the tubes, including the rear triangle large enough for say the 4s hardcase HK packs (basically 45x45mm + a bit extra for wires n padding)? I dont think that'd change the look much, but would add a huge amount more storage potential...

also, is the frame near the BB large enough to fit a 85-x or 63-74 motor? that'd make for one subtle mid-drive.

[Hyena]

is there going to be a way to access the inside of the top tube?

The door to insert the batteries from the bottom will run most of the length of the underside and stop about an inch or so from the head tube, so you've got access to the 'tank' section through there and could load the batteries into the head tube single file if needed be - sort of like loading bullets into a rifle. I had originally planned to have the top tube accessable from the back (short seat tube on top with a seat post that didn't poke through) but I figure this is enough space. My current red proto is a bit of a pain to add and configure the batteries through a door like this which is why I'm doing away with it. Arguably it doesn't matter for a fairly one off thing like adding batteries but in trying to make the frame as close to the battery size as possible it makes configuring the wiring tough (I like to parallel charge)
But yeah, it'd be no biggy to make the top bar a little bigger. Alternatively my other consideration was to have the bottom bracket either on the underside of the down tube or on the upper side - rather that at the end of it and the junction of the seat tube. That'd enable me to also have access to an oversized hollow seat tube too through the single door on the bottom. I'd initially planned to put the controller here but it would have been a touch wide to keep a standard width bottom bracket. I think how it is will suffice but it's easily changed later. If I do end up making a run of these the first one will show up any short comings.
I was planning to run the hall and phase wires through the top tube and terminate them to sockets at the back of the top tube (again depending on how I do the seat post)

small onboard charger or something?

I've done away with the idea of an onboard charger after having a few laptop supplies I was using smoke up. Unless I put a somewhat gutsy DC converter to charge up from 12v.

taking it further, how bout making all the tubes, including the rear triangle large enough for say the 4s hardcase HK packs (basically 45x45mm + a bit extra for wires n padding)? I dont think that'd change the look much, but would add a huge amount more storage potential...

I think making all the tubes hugely chunky would start to detract from it a little. The seat tube and top bar sure, but not rear of that (plus it'd be hard to add the packs in) As for using hard case packs - waste of space now mate - ain't nothing getting through the chrome moly steel that the plastic case will stop

Is the frame near the BB large enough to fit a 85-x or 63-74 motor? that'd make for one subtle mid-drive.

Got some measurements ? Pending interest if I do make a run of these I'll get all the pieces laser cut so the majority of the frame will be fixed but again with each one being hand made you can make it however you like and to accomodate what you like. I'd like to do a mid drive at some stage so once I sort the hard tail and full sus hub versions I'll look at that.

[Jeremy Harris]

It's an 18" scooter motor, I did (do) have it up for sale but no one has taken any interest in it. I was going to make a hotted up kick scooter with it but I've got too many other projects on at the moment.

Pity you're across the other end of the planet, as I know someone looking for a motor like that. Any idea how much it might take? I'm guessing it's only good for maybe 1kW or so.

[Timma2500]

Hey Jay, the DB is looking good!
Man it must be bloody tight in there for the wiring, are you going to hardwire the batteries or have you room for plugs?

Is that a HS35 or 40?


Paul

[Kepler]

Good luck with the project Jay, I am sure you will come up with something very special.

My two cents Seing one of the main drivers of this project is to keep it as bike like as possible, my thoughts are dont try and stuff too many batteries in there. After running my custom Fighter for a few months now I have tried a few battery capacity combinations looking for the best combination of performance and range. I ran the 18S 1P 8ah Zippys for a while. Usable was around 6.5ah. Good for 20km of spirited riding and 30km as a nice brisk commuter. Although the bike feels great at this weight, the range was a bit too light on. I have now settled on a combination of 18S 8ah zippys paralleled up with 18S 5Ah zippys. This is Good for 30km of spirited riding and 40km as a nice brisk commuter. I can't pick the difference in handling with the extra capacity but I can feel the extra weight when I go to pick the bike up.

I am really pleased with the internal controller setup and have had no issues with the little 6FET mini monster at all. Highly recommend going down that path if you can.

I think it would be even more "normal bike" like if you could narrow the frame to suit the width of a single 6S 8ah zippy or whatever the controller width would allow.

If you plan to get serious with frame design, I highly recommend you learn to 3D model. Its an absolute must in my opinion and once proficient, makes it so easy to quickly try all sorts of combinations without actually building the frame. Also allows you to model and test geometry before you build. Once modeled, the drawing can then be emailed to laser cutting shops or machine shops for manufacture.

I use an old copy of SolidWorks (2008). Took a bit of time to get up to speed but with the help of some excellent tutorials, managed to start churning out some useful drawings after a few nights of concentrated effort.

[Scruffoid]

Agree on the 3d Modeling use.

I can show you some solid works stuff when i see you in the coming weeks jay We can all be like Jason from American chopper with our custom made Bikes in Solidworks!

This sort of frame is exactly what i had in mind. I was thinking of doing all single file batteries thou and putting them in the top tube as well.

I do like the idea of using 18S2p of the 6S 8AH zippys so you could do 3 in the top tube and 3 in the bottom tube and the controller could fit in the junction triangle.

I was thinking of using some eliptical style tubing rather than square so that the batteries would still be held tight but there would be room around the outside for running of wires etc. I think you can get customised extrusions made up fairly cheaply of round tubes. does leave a large issue of getting the batteries into the bike thou , i guess you can also make a contoured door to matcht eh contour of the frame. Or you make the junction square and but a access hole in it.

So when are you going to buy a tig welder

Scruff

[Hyena]

Pity you're across the other end of the planet, as I know someone looking for a motor like that. Any idea how much it might take? I'm guessing it's only good for maybe 1kW or so.

Yeah I think it's rated at 500-1000w but it should be good for 2kw and bursts of more with air cooling. The chunky alloy blades in lieu of spokes would technically dissipate a bit of heat as well. On a kick scooter like I was planning I imagine it'd run fine but on a heavier motor scooter style frame I imagine it'd struggle a bit.

Man it must be bloody tight in there for the wiring, are you going to hardwire the batteries or have you room for plugs?
Is that a HS35 or 40?

H35 for now but I'll likely downsize to a lighter 9C style - or possibly even mac.
Yeah the wiring is tight, should be just enough room to fit the 4mm bullets and their housings on top of hte packs.I could always make a raised door section but I dont think it's necessary. I'll probably do away with the parallel charging though and just have a main 2 pin charge port and a balance port. I'm waiting on a cool new insolated balance charger and if that does what it I expect it should that'd make balance charging on occasions a snap. That way I can bulk charge at full pack voltage then top up any cells that are lagging behind at 2-3 amps through the 24 pin balance connector. More on that once I've tested it though

[Hyena]

I do like the idea of using 18S2p of the 6S 8AH zippys so you could do 3 in the top tube and 3 in the bottom tube and the controller could fit in the junction triangle.

Yeah that's an option too. Though the width isn't really an issue in running them 2 wide in the down tube. It clears your pedals and legs and is still narrower than a stealth so it ain't too bad. I guess it's the old story of having to accept trade offs when you try to make something that suits multiple purposes...

I was thinking of using some eliptical style tubing rather than square so that the batteries would still be held tight but there would be room around the outside for running of wires etc. I think you can get customised extrusions made up fairly cheaply of round tubes. does leave a large issue of getting the batteries into the bike thou , i guess you can also make a contoured door to matcht eh contour of the frame. Or you make the junction square and but a access hole in it.

Yeah that's more work than I want to tackle at the moment! Is there mobs around making up extruded cromo or just aluminium ? I'm using cromo

So when are you going to buy a tig welder

I bought a 200 amp mig last year and have yet to put it to any proper use other than a few test welds. I was going to dummy up some frame designs with it from cheap mild steel but I'm deferring to a professional welder now. He can do a neater and proper job of it in a lot less time than what it'd take me. And I'm confident it'll be strong enough after he drove his car up onto a test section he made and it didn't flex a millimeter!

[Hillhater]

....So I went oldskool with a pen, paper and a cardboard box

"old school" CAD ....Cardboard Aided Design. !

[Hyena]

LOL, I used the latest cardboard version too, it arrived just the previous morning

In other news I've gotten a bit fed up with makeshift leads and test equipment scattered and buried all over my bench and workshop so am making a more dedicated piece of ebike testing and charging equipment. There'll be a lipo cycling set up to test packs more quickly and easily - charging, discharging and manually balancing. A 500w discharger using an array of small GY 6.35 50w globes for very rapidly discharging a pack and a seperate lower powered discharge circuit for pulling back single cells. This will be done either automatically driven off a battery medic style balancer or manually with a cell log to display the cell voltages and a 6 pole switch to drop the load across the desired cell without having to swap plugs around. A single 50w 12v globe pulls 3 amps when connected to a single fully charged lipo cell which is perfect for discharging at the max rate through the balance tap wires. The same set up will be used for manually charging up low cells with a 3 amp power supply. I've been doing this for a while anyway by plugging in a cell log, finding the weak cell and then manually charging it up with a 2 pin balance tap connector onto the right wires, but this way will do away with all the fiddling and make the process quick and easy with a simple one plug click and the twist of a dial.

Bulk BULK charging will be done with 2 server power supplies, put in series to charge 6S parallel groups at 50 amps. ooft
That'll charge my 18S2P (10ah) packs at nearly 2C and the 18ah pack in my stealth fighter at 1C. Noice.

My old power supply is a bit ghetto so I'm also planning planning integrate a new lab style power supply with adjustable voltage and current for general testing and what not. I was going to use a few voltage and amp panel meters and DC converters (one step up and one step down) to give me the range of voltages I'd want to play with when I came across this nifty little board.

It does everything I want and more in one neat package and without any any messing around and construction (not that that's an issue)
CV and CC selection, 0-60v and a CA style display. And under $50 delivered. Sweet!
I'll post more info an a review when it arrives but I figured it might be of interest to other tinkerers like me.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ZXY6005-DC-D ... 2a19b33bae

[icecube57]

I just bought one of these. Thanks for the link mate Its a perfect add on for my 24v power supply but i think you can use one 24v power supply and series two of these for output as long as they arent physically touching....maybe i could be totally wrong I think these are non isolated but im not sure... im still looking up info

[heathyoung]

Looking at the topology they are buck - so non-isolated, and input voltage must be higher than output voltage.

Server supplies aren't usually current limited like you would hope, they are usually hiccup unfortunatly.

[icecube57]

As long as you dont series the output with the input you should be able to series non isolated converters on the output.. correct? It seems like the dc to dc does the current limiting 60v 5A and you can dial in the current limit so its only draw what it needs and it shouldnt overload a server psu 60vx5A plust overhead isnt alot of watts.. lets say 350w for good measures... i know its not going to over loaded my dell sever 1400w psus that would have 24v at 57A.

[Hyena]

Looking at the topology they are buck - so non-isolated, and input voltage must be higher than output voltage.

Yeah I was curious about that. I was originally planning to use 2 for my lab power supply purposes (one step up and one step down) to give the range of voltages I might use. But when I saw these with 0-60v output I thought they'd be perfect and hastily bought one. After a closer look as you say the input has to be higher than the output (I was hoping it'd step both up and down) and presumably the 60v max they refer to is with a 62v input.
Oh well, I guess I can use a seperate 60v meanwell style PSU for that. Not sure what sort of range that will give though...

Server supplies aren't usually current limited like you would hope, they are usually hiccup unfortunatly.

Bummer, they should be on my door step this arvo or tomorrow so I'll soon find out. Is this where you magicly come to my rescue with a current limiting board Heath ?

[sn0wchyld]

LOL, I used the latest cardboard vers....
Bulk BULK charging will be done with 2 server power supplies, put in series to charge 6S parallel groups at 50 amps. ooft
That'll charge my 18S2P (10ah) packs at nearly 2C and the 18ah pack in my stealth fighter at 1C. Noice.
....

how are you regulating the output? or have you found some server ps's that self limit the current?

[Hyena]

It seems like the dc to dc does the current limiting 60v 5A and you can dial in the current limit so its only draw what it needs and it shouldnt overload a server psu 60vx5A plust overhead isnt alot of watts..

I was talking about charging the lipo direct with the 50a odd output from the server supplies.
Mine are 47 amp HP DPS-600PB
I guess worst case I could put 2 in series with the voltage turned down with a 3rd 200w 5v supply that IS current limited...

or just use 14ga wire to charge through

[icecube57]

With this dc to dc i think it would even be a worth while investment to get a 60v meanwell or series some 20-21v laptop power supplies to this. You could current limit the power supply viat 24v bulb or lamps in series but it would have an uncontrollable voltage or yeah you could just use a small gauge wire to limit the current also... dirty but it gets the job done... have it routed and coil in a watter bottle for cooling lol

[icecube57]

Just a thought since these power supplies will supposedly trip if overloaded under a dead short cant you put a brushed motor controller with a rectified output and a bank of caps to smooth out the voltage ripple even more to control the voltage range and use the current limit of the controller to limit the current so you dont overload the PSU. I would be willing to bread board it up if its a viable solution even though i dont know squat about electronics... as you can tell by my vauge logical reasoning i can put things together well though lol....I though these power supplies would have Foldback protection. I think one of them does measure current I saw shunts in one power supply i worked on...