Hyena's e-bike builds (now with HD video)

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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:42 am

Thanks for the info mate.

I've been riding to work every day this week - 29ks return and I JUST make it off a single charge from the 8ah pack so I'm pretty happy with that. I was intially charging at work but after my 2nd charger (one of THESE ) died after only 4 charges I had to risk the return trip on a single charge. Luckily the shop I got it from gave me a full refund so I can now go done a more gangsta path 8)

I've been speaking with methods and am going to make up something similar to what he's doing with his high powered onboard charger, but on a smaller scale of course. I'm going to get THIS 24v 6a power supply. It has a +/-10% variable output, so I'll set it to 25.2v and pour 6 amps into my 4 6s 4000ah lipos packs in parallel. That's around 1.5a each which is under 1/2C so should be nice and safe and hopefully I'll get the most life from the batteries. The manufacturer recommends charging at 1a and 2a max which seems pretty low, but I dont want to be too daring with high current charge rates on these cheap no name packs given I often charge them indoors. Besides, a charge time of 2.5-3hrs is quite acceptable for my needs.

The only problem now is I think I need a better bike, or atleast suspension!
Travelling at 30-40km/hr along sections of bumpy footpaths and crappy access roads along the side of the highway on the way to work makes for a bone jarring ride! It's only a cheap bke so I can't expect too much, but I dunno if upgrading the front shocks alone will make it much better. If I have to replace too much it might be easier to get a better new bike. Either that or up the voltage some more so I can keep up with the cars and ride on the road :twisted:
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby GGoodrum » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:50 pm

Re: the rough ride, one thing that help me a lot was switching to big balloon-type tires, inflated to about 30-35 pounds. That really smoothed out the ride. :)
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:33 pm

Thanks for the tip mate. I did noticed the ride was harsher after switching from the standard mountain bike tyres to the semi-slicks I have on it now (a touch wider at 1.9" vs 1.75) so I'll try letting the pressure down a little and see how they go. I have been abusing it too I suppose, riding it fairly fast on some rough trails and taking a few jumps. The suspension has become quite noisy so I don't know if it's just made with the cheapest of cheap components and/or I've buggered it.
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:40 pm

So those cheap lipo work fine?

Do they heat up with your setup?

Do they deliver their full Watt/Hr rating?

I'm thinking about them for my nex setup!

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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:15 pm

Yep they work fine for my application and deliver close to their rated ah capacity.
As I think I said previously I got around 7ah from a supposed 8ah pack, so that's pretty good. It still had life in it but not running a BMS I didnt want to run the cells too low. If you were just cruising on flat ground or using it more for assist I reckon you'd get very close to the claimed ah rating. Where I live is quite hilly though so I'm often pulling 20+ amps.

They do sag a bit with higher current draw, but pulling around 2C they're fine. Although they're rated at 10-15C I wouldn't try and run a single 4ah pack by itself unless you've got a 12amp controller or there abouts. Pull around 6C from them and the voltage quickly sags to dangerous levels for lipos. (ie around 3v or less per cell)

As for heat, again if you're pulling high current they get hot - when I was testing just the 4ah pack it was reaaaally hot when I retuned - like holding onto a hot cup of coffee. Running the 8ah pack though it's only warm to the touch afterwards. My aluminium ventilated box probably keeps them pretty cool though too.

edit: I haven't been able to use my bike lately due to the above mentioned blowing up of chargers, but the bits I've ordered should arrive soon so I can get back into it them.
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Mark_A_W » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:53 pm

Almasi, just be aware that Lipos (particularly cheap ones) last about a year, maybe two at the outside.

They die just sitting on the shelf.

My lipos booster pack lasted 14 months. Balanced at every charge, discharge was around 3c peak (they were supposed to be 15c).
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:38 pm

Mark_A_W wrote:Almasi, just be aware that Lipos (particularly cheap ones) last about a year, maybe two at the outside.

They die just sitting on the shelf.

My lipos booster pack lasted 14 months. Balanced at every charge, discharge was around 3c peak (they were supposed to be 15c).



Thanks for all this info to all of you!

I may use those lipo for my next built...but 1 year life when you only ride your bike 4 or 5 month a year...hmmm but 1/2 the weight of A123 cell for same Watt/Hour then maybe it's woth it :roll:
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby AussieJester » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:41 pm

Almasi wrote:I may use those lipo for my next built...but 1 year life when you only ride your bike 4 or 5 month a year


Nothing stopping you from discharging/charging during the months you dont ride to prolong their life rather than just leave them 'sitting on a shelf'
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:46 pm

AussieJester wrote:
Almasi wrote:I may use those lipo for my next built...but 1 year life when you only ride your bike 4 or 5 month a year


Nothing stopping you from discharging/charging during the months you dont ride to prolong their life rather than just leave them 'sitting on a shelf'



So if I discharged them and charge them every month it will help them live longer, is that right?
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Mark_A_W » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:54 pm

Almasi wrote:
So if I discharged them and charge them every month it will help them live longer, is that right?


No.
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:05 am

Mark_A_W wrote:
Almasi wrote:
So if I discharged them and charge them every month it will help them live longer, is that right?


No.



OK, now I get it....you said to use them for something else during winter...

I don't see what...unless I build myself a custom electric snowblower :D (I have a Original B&S Etek and a Alltrax 48 Volt 300 Amp controller...this could be a way to make so use of them again that white shit we get )
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Mark_A_W » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:13 am

Snowblower?

What's that?
Under construction: Giant DH Team, MAC Shanghai, Infineon 18 FET controller, 64v Headway battery. LINK!!

Retired: Kona Dawg Dually + Bomber Triple Clamp forks with Nine Continents front hub motor, 48v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 Pack + 12v 10Ah Headway LiFePO4 booster pack (nominal 64v).

Powered by the sun :)

Dead: Jamis Dakar frame, Mongoose Pro Downhill frame, cooked Lipo booster pack....and various other bits and pieces...
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:58 am

Mark_A_W wrote:Snowblower?

What's that?


Your kidding right?

If not here is a regular one:

Image

We need one here!
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:02 am

I wouldn't hook up these lipos to that motor with a 300 amp controller!
I dunno about snow blower, but I reckon you'd end up with a pretty spectacular snow melter!
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Almasi » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:21 am

Hyena wrote:I wouldn't hook up these lipos to that motor with a 300 amp controller!
I dunno about snow blower, but I reckon you'd end up with a pretty spectacular snow melter!


I won't use Lipo for that...(I ws just kidding) for a snow blower Lead Acid battery would do it. (Marine Deep Cycle)
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:15 pm

Well, it looks like I'm adding another e-bike to my collection 8)
Trawling ebay for upgrades and bits and pieces for my current bike I came across a complete "proper" e-bike that's supposedly in good condition bar an interesting crank problem. The guy says he was pedalling one day and suddenly the pedals started spinning freely but not turning the chain. He said the motor still runs fine but it's as if you're pedalling backwards. It sounds to me like it has a cyclone style free wheel crank that's died, but why a commercially made hub driven ebike would have one is beyond me...
Or maybe its the bottom bracket ? I dunno, either way it doesn't sound like it'd be too hard to fix.

Image

It's a little odd looking with the way the battery box is mounted with the slightly longer wheel base with the rear suspension, but meh I can easily transfer the bits and pieces to another bike if needs be. It has reasonable looking forks, front and rear disk brakes, lights, mud guards etc already in place to make it a good commuter. It looks legit in the eyes of the law too which is a bonus. It has pooey SLAs at the moment but they'll soon be replaced with nice light higher voltage lipos :)

I still really want to mod one of my old frames to completely hide the batteries in the frame. I've already cut part of the frame away playing with early prototypes, so its ripe for butchering :P I'd like to build something totally custom like Hal is but I havent got the skill or cash, but I reckon if I was to cut the full length of the bottom bar of the frame in half and weld on a piece of rectangular channel I could easily hide 44v 8ah worth lipos in there. OR, I could cut that bar away completely and replace it with a wider longer section and just weld to the other bits of the frame which would be neater, but then I'd be more fiddley around the bottom bracket etc and I'm sure I'd botch it up!

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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:59 am

I've been playing with me newly aquired bike. Turned out it was only 24v thus sloooooooow. Very slow when the crank is stuffed so I could only test it on battery power alone.
So I opened up the little controller in the bottom of the battery box, soldered in an extra resistor so it'd take higher voltage, but sadly that promptly killed it. :lol: Browsing ebay I thought I'd probably get an ecrazyman controller but found a local seller just up the road from me selling whole kits. I emailed and asked if they sold spare controllers seperately which they did and to my delight $50 later ($35 US) I had a big fat "36v 1000w" controller in my lap. I was also pleased to find it took my 50v hot off the charge lipo pack straight out of the box, so no need to mod it. $2 worth of duct tape later its on the bike and up the street for a test run, still with no crank. I dont know if its this controller or the throttle or what, but the acceleration is alot different to my GM one. It seems to accelerate fairly gently and smoothly to about 30km/hr and then levels out like thats all its got, but then open the throttle right up and it launches off. It has much more top end torque than my GM and clocked 44km/hr on the flat (GPS) vs about 39km/hr on the same pack for the GM. So very pleased with this I'm back to the workshop to get the watts up meter and see what sort current it's pulling. Cruising along its doing 10-15-20 amps, much the same as my GM, then I opened it up and looked down to see 42 amps! Damn, that's where the extra torque is coming from! Sadly my cheap 8ah lipos didnt like this and the voltage quickly sagged.

Looking inside the controller the shunts are quite accessable - I might try removing the one with the cuts in it and see how that affects the current draw. I'm thinking I could also wire up a "performace" switch of sorts - that I can flick if I want the extra current so I dont have to baby the throttle so much to get good milage out of it. I guess once I fix the crank I can give it a proper test and see how it performs.
Even with the noticably heavier steel frame its nicer to ride than my other bike so this may become my main commuter. I should be able to build both my lipo pack and the 8 amp switch mode PSU charger into the existing sla battery box - so I can just fit a mains socket to the box and charge it directly onboard where ever I go. All while looking neat and like a stock 200w off the shelf ebike :)

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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby dazzassj6 » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:11 am

thats a very good read. Hey do you know if your new bike's hub motor is geared or not? or is it direct drive?
Project 1: 48v 500w Golden motor upgrade on Express Green E wheels upgraded to 48v 10ah Ping battery Flat speed: 44km/hr Pedal assist: 49.9km/hr Uphill speed: 40km/hr

Project 2: A female Kmart mountain bike 26" wheels mounted with a 500w cyclone with a 24v 20ah 13C Lifepo4. Flat speed 30km/hr pedal: 35km/h

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6669
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 am

It's a direct drive.

I tried my 500w GM hub with the new controller and throttle today and it behaved the same way as it does with the GM controller, so I guess the extra torque and rush of top end speed on this new hub is a result of the way the motor is wound?
Interestingly, when connected to the 1000w controller the GM doesn't want to pull any more than the 30a upper limit of the 500w controller (except for near stalling it on a really steep hill) The GM uses draws around 10a cruising at top speed on the flat, the new hub pulls 15-20a so i guess that extra top speed comes at a high price when it comes to battery milage.
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:06 am

I thought I'd post a pic of my home made lipo charger because someone was asking me in PM about it the other day.
Props to methods for his help in chosing components :)

As I posted above, I'm running an 8ah lipo pack made from 4x 4ah 6S 22.2v RC packs - so running 2S2P. They're soldered together into 2 lots of 2P, so and to charge I run them as 4p.

So first thing, I bought a 7 amp switch mode power supply - it real life it actually puts out 9 amps. It's 24v +/- 10% so I have it set to 25.2v. I charged the packs directly from this for a few weeks while I waited for the rest of my parts to arrive which was fine, but in the interest of cell longevity I now have it running through a balancer. I chose a hyperion LBA10 because you can charge through the balancer at up to 10 amps, perfect for my application. I also added a 10a amp meter to keep an eye on the charge status. I found that the power supply was getting reeeeeally hot at the start when it was pumping out high current so I added a small fan from an old computer power supply. I got the 12v supply for it by poking around the board of the power supply until I found 14v coming off the back of one of the diodes. It only draws 100ma, so homefully it will be ok! As an added bonus, and completely by coincidence, when I powered it up and the charge current was high the voltage to that diode went went and so the fan speed got faster. Free current dependant fan speed controller that increases the speed as the heat rises. Cool!

It's all held together and encased with a piece of perspex I heated and bent to suit.
Here's the finished product in action, I'm quite pleased with how it turned out :)

Image


Trap for young players - don't leave your parallel balance taps harness connected when you switch the batteries back to series. It'll result in an immediate vaporisation of your connectors. Opps... :oops:
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby bzhwindtalker » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:52 pm

hello
i orded 2 of these 6s 4000 lipo pack to play with, 6s2p on a 24v kollmorgan
what kind delay can I hope for delivery? cause I'm getting tired of sla's :lol:
for charge i will re-wire balancing plugs to get a 4s3p setup, i will be able to charge in 6hrs with my cheap hxt charger, but your setup look nice for a onboard fast charger. did you found this power supply cheap?
and last question, how many charges did the pack take so far? my experiance with small and cheap rc lipos runing a 15+c is around 50-100 cycles or 1-2year max. I just hope bigger lipos runing a 2-3c can last longer :wink:
thank
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:45 pm

Delivery time will depend on where you live I guess - I got them delivered to Australia in under a week. (something like ordering on Thursday and they arrived on Tuesday)

Why are you charging in 4S3P ? Is your charger only 4S ?
The power supply cost me around $55 AUD delivered, balancer was around the same from a local hobby shop.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/24V-DC-6A-145W-R ... 240%3A1318

The balance plugs also came from ebay - they only came in packs of 10 which I didnt quite need, but cheaper than sourcing a few locally.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0340320490

You won't get anywhere near 15C from these lipos despite their rating. Up to 3C and they're happy, any more than 6C and they sag too much to use. Still for the price you can't really complain. It wasnt until after I bought these that I found out the zippys have much less sag and thus will enable you to maintain a higher speed for longer. They're less than half the price though, so if you can put up with the sag you'll get very close to their rated ah. With yours as 6S2P you'll probably be running around 23v pulling 20 amps.
I've put around 30 cycles on mine so far and apart from the one cell that randomly died out of the blue they're going well.
I use about 4ah riding to work, charge it there and then about 5 riding home.
I hope I get much more than 50 cycles because at this rate charging twice a day (albeit only half discharging) they won't last long!

I'll report back when they start to deteriorate.
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby AussieJester » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:16 pm

Great to see you got the charging organized mate ;-)

For those looking for Meanwell power supplies (if your in OZ anywayz) Computronics are the agents for them...:-)

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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby Hyena » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:40 pm

Ah I didnt know about that company - $38 AUD for the power supply I got, not bad. I did a quick google before I got the one from ebay and came up with some other mob but they want $80 odd!

I just checked and they have a S-100 model that outputs 48v @ 2a (more like 3a based on how underrated my current one is) for only $28.
If I'm going to keep riding to work I might grab one of those to leave here for a quick ghetto straight plug in 50.4v 12S charger and I'll balance it every second charge when I get home.
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Re: Hyena's e-bike(s) build

Postby AussieJester » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:38 pm

Yeah JayCar also sell them for HUGELY inflated price, I have bought a couple from Computronics in the past to run
peltiers on my PC watercooling setups few years ago now, they are about 10 minutes drive from my place now ;-)

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