operation drive and recharge. possible?

Hi guys. I've been thinking about this for a long time.
Run a ebike with a main motor and a front wheel motor
As a generator. Well that what people kept saying to me.
I thought, is it possible? Well only one way to find out.
Build it.

So lucky I had a spare motor from an old build. A 9c 7x9
In a nice rim and fat knoby tyre =P
So put it on and taped a multi meter to the handle bars and
Wired the motor to a dc generator









So went for a ride to see what voltage I would get. To
My suprise it was 1kph for 1v. So hit 20kph 20volts
40kph 40volts 50kph 50volts






So now the question is, what would happen if I fed this
Back into the battery pack? Would my amps go down?
Voltage increase? Do nothing?

Well I bought a on off button and a connector for my
Battery charging. So my logic is that my battery pack is
48v. So I need to get up to at least 45v do see anything
Or even 50, turn on the switch and see what happens.

And if it works. Planning to make a 22farad 60v cap bank
And run the generator to the bank, then the batteries.

Well it a work in progress. Has anyone tried this??? If so
Please share experiences. Because I have heard of
Regenerative acceleration and its the flip side to braking.

Back to inventing =)

The net effect of trying to run a generator off the bike wheel to charge the battery is that you will create more drag to turn the generator that'll require more juice to keep it spinning than the power it'll generate: Net Loss.

Can you not understand that the extra energy required to turn that front wheel "generator " ( against the electromagnetic resistance) is coming from the rear wheel motor which is drawing extra current from the battery.
With all the losses in that system , you are losing energy rather than gaining it.
Try checking the amp draw on your rear motor, with and without the front wheel "generator" working. !

Thought about it, but when riding felt no drag, only the extra weight
Of the motor. I take it the yous both have tried this experiment?

Update

Have wired everything up and something strage happened.
The generator is showing .5v at stationary?



Was charging the bike. So what if the generator was acting
like a receiver? =/

Well going for a test ride, will see =)

Also brought the pack down too 48v 10amps.

"one of the largest tram networks in the world" seen here:
[youtube]t9UNq0yBdOY[/youtube]

Maybe 850 volts of DC. Yeah baby. Hook up to that.


Doo doo do. Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

O . . . M . . . G

Congratulations, you have figured out a way to make your ebike more expensive, heavier, and significantly less efficient, and your only benefit is that you're carrying an extra motor around as a backup in case the other one breaks.

By your same logic, why stop at 1 motor? Add more motors and you can make lots of extra electricity.

Where exactly do you think the energy will come from to run your front wheel generator? It comes from the mechanical energy output of your rear motor. There are losses in the front wheel's conversion of mechanical energy back into electricity. Yes you can create that circular flow you want...making the front motor/generator send energy back to the battery, but the part that hasn't sunk in for you yet is that the rear motor will have to suck more extra energy out of the battery to make it happen.

If you are only using the front generator as an electric brake to recover some of the kinetic energy, that's called regen braking and you don't need the extra motor to do it.

Once it comes into focus for you, please edit your opening post and thread title, so anyone who has the same common idea/question can get the answer without wasting their time and money.

My friend Benny from PA is gonna be VERY disappointed after trying HIS experiments.

There are probably dozens of threads about trying to get free energy like this, many of them in the Alternative Energy subforum.

You need to go find and read all those, if you want to know why this won't work like you expect it to, because it's already been discussed to death.

Well are a ride there was no charging. But one thing didn't happened
That everybody said. There was no lag. So I can only asume
The the power needed would have to be over 58v to start any
Effect.

Like in this video. The batt voltage is 24v

self charging home made 24V electric mountain bike
http://youtu.be/VfObqiqUI9Y

Tried a 24v pack but the controller didnt like it.
Its a 18fet lyen.

Ii think it would help to if both motors were 250watt instead
Of 1000w =/ main motor and a 500 watt generator. But dont
Have this.

There is a simple task you can do which will bring some clarity and understanding to you.
Lie the bike down, disconnect the front motor from any power source and join the 3 motor phase wires together then turn the wheel, this will give you some idea of the amount of effort needed to turn the motor when it is working as a generator.

OP: The primary thing of value that I took from your experiment is the observation of how much energy was produced by the “generator” -> which I took to be the main point of the thread…

AND NOT to create a perpetual motion device.

fluid2150 said:

…what would happen if I fed this back into the battery pack?

Click to expand...

This is an astute question, and one that I face when building a dynamometer using the exact same concept, only mine will be using two hub motors locked in regen for drag against a theoretical concept motor.

We (as in the Royal We) expect that this system will always be in a net-loss even in the vacuum of space due to the Law of Conservation of Energy. There is a simple calculus we can make that determines the fate of such observations called “the Energy Balance Equation” wherein:

• Ei + Qin + Won = Ef + Qout + Wby

For example, if I were to calculate the EBE for my last date, it would go like this:

• Ei = Energy Initial -> last nights’ sleep
  Qin = Heat Transfer In -> how hot pants are
  Won = Work on the System -> Speed (humps/sec)
  Ef = Energy Final -> total exhaustion
  Qout = Heat Transfer Out -> cold show afterwards
  Wby = Work by the system -> TWINS!

Everything is conserved. Nothing is destroyed. However, even the best mechanical devices suffer from frictional drag (not a bad thing if on a date :wink: ) which transforms into vibration, a resonance that we observe as heat and/or sound.

Fundamentally, our system begins loosing energy from the moment we stop charging batteries: Batteries leak, electronics of the controller leak, current traveling through the wires leak, hysteresis within the iron core of the motor leak, resistance/slippage of traction by the tire against the earth leaks, wind resistance leaks (though arguably we could have a tailwind) – and then we have the generator side which is everything leaky in reverse.

The salient question to ask is “Which is more efficient: Motoring or Generating?”

Ideally we would think they are the same, however I suggest that our present options are tilted towards motoring given that is the primary purpose at hand.

In the case of the dyno – I simply wish to create a load against the motor ...and coincidentally feed the power generated back into the system to extend the operational time, however lossy.

What’s next in your experiment?
Well-Rested, KF 8)

"...AND NOT to create a perpetual motion device."
Dang.

I could see value in regen with a heavy multiplication drive on a front wheel hub....for example you can coast while a smaller regen motor is spinning out 4amps at like 2000 rpm....every time you hit the brakes you waste heat, you could be engaging a brake motor instead.

I once built an rc car that used a nitro engine to drive a 12v motor to power the drive motor.

Basically, that sort of thing will work if you need way more regen than your existing single-motor setup can provide, and you're OK with dealing with the extra weight and EM drag of an additional DD hub up front during regular (non-braking) operation. However, attempting to charge the bike while powering it (by leaving one motor in drive and the other in regen mode) is going to wind up lowering your range when everything's said and done. Imagine a bike in which you've put two identical DD hubs, one up front and one in the back. If it takes a current of 20A to achieve a continuous speed of 25mph without the front hub, then trying to achieve that speed while pulling 10A regen off the front wheel is going to result in you pushing slightly more than 30A through the rear hub (after you account for the voltage drop due to the electrical resistance of the wiring and controller), and thus you will shave a small but noticeable amount off your range if you run the bike with the two motors fighting each other.

Best experiment for trying to see if this works well will require a wattmeter.

VERY interesting that you are trying to find the amount of power being created without one.

Once you get your wattmeter hooked up, turn the rear motor controller off, or un plug. Pedal a few miles. Remember, you have to roll fast to get any volts. Really fast to get to 58v.

Now you will see why we don't all have this on our bikes. You'll have to roll that bike about a hundred miles to recharge your battery. Its just that horribly inefficient to roll your weight along too. This is why a wind generator works for shit till it's blowing pretty good.

Us old farts knew this from day one, because back in the 60's we had one of those friction generator bike lights. We remember well how hard it was to pedal with the thing turned on. And that was trying to generate 6v. Unbelievable how much pedaling it took to get that little light to be bright.

The other "great idea" A gas motor and an electric one can actually work, but again it's about 90% listening to the stinker run, and 10% running on the battery.

fluid2150 said:

I take it the yous both have tried this experiment?

Click to expand...

Don't need to, we can just read about so many others who have tried.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=overunity

you don't even need to BUILD the bike or read a lot what other TRIED. it's simply logic. simple mathematics. basic.
when i was 5 or 6 i "invented" that perpetuum mobile. just to find out that such a thing just doesn't exist. not need to hook up motors and meters and batteries to a bike. IT WILL NEVER WORK. sorry

ps. this forum does "auto-CR". no need to hit ENTER at the end of your device's page width.

They say that the greatest inventions come from the wreckage of entirely unrelated experiments.

Let the man have his hobby, he might come up with a new, improved oven mitt

i totally agree with you. but what HE thought out was proven impossible for thousands of times already. maybe he should lead his thoughts into more realistic ideas.
and as i said: i had the very same idea some years ago. it just looked TOO tempting to solve people's power needs for once and forever. on the other hand i got quite nervous when i had that idea because i was not old enough to get a patent on it and was hoping that no one "invented" that until i was old enough. luckily this problem was solved faster then i thought
even those "range" extender ideas with a small ice running a generator which charges a battery, to then power the motor, have such a low efficiency, that it's almost always better to just carry more batteries. to get some REAL high range this would change, as energy density of petrol/gas is much higher then our batteries. but if you want to run the ice 90% of the time to charge the battery it may be better to directly power the wheels from the ice.

Well this is an amusing thread.

I remember when my ex's son was six. He's saved up a bunch of change, and was counting it. Being six, he still had trouble with big numbers and coin denominations. So one day he sat on the floor stacking his coins into small groups, then counting the groups and adding them together. Then he would re-stack them into different groups and recount them. Followed by more re-stacking and more re-counting. After a surprisingly long time for a 6 year old, he growled in frustration and shouted "They keep being to the same number!"

Over Unity experiments always remind me of that story.

Time for a quick physics course online. Then figure out that it's better for the average joe to stick to what's been well sussed out already.

http://pesn.com/2011/08/28/9501905_Thane_Heins_Regenerative_Acceleration_Generator/
I believe there is free energy, and
anything is possible and provable with time.
I have seen to many things in history to support this (nikola tesla) for one

Our laws dont apply to everything in this univeres in my opinion, its more likely to be suppresed
To benefit a few an control the minorities.

Fluid, ...are you by chance a supporter of the Palmer United Party ..?
...because you are behaving just like one, making comments in public domain that are embarrassing to the majority of rational Aussie's !

Could be worse. Coulda been those Canadiens, eh? (Or Welsh, about some Scots Party.)