Toyota Mirai - the fuel cell vehicle goes into production

Yes, universal charging in parking bays would be expected, but also "Superchargers" (50kW+) would need to be available also for those needing a rapid charge, on a longer trip, passing through etc etc.
I believe the technology exists to do all of that......we just need those batteries !
 
I think we already have the batteries, or at least close enough that I'm willing to buy a nice electric car for my next purchase. More purchases of electrics will push on the road charge stations. Until then I'm happy to drive a car with killer performance in a limited range. My family has two cars already, the other can be gasoline for a while as the long range vehicle.
 
johnrobholmes said:
I think we already have the batteries, or at least close enough that I'm willing to buy a nice electric car for my next purchase. .
Yes, except the cost is still a major barrier to most. more than double the price of equivalent ICE car to us down under.
That is a lot of extra investment ($30k ?) with a very unrealistically slow return (fuel savings) on c low mileage city car whose biggest running cost is tolls and parking !
 
Hillhater said:
Don,t forget the 10C charge rate ability though John.
It would be a killer to have all that battery capacity but be stuck with low charge rates !

EV's aren't appropriate for vehicles that a driven constantly unless it has a big area flat roof capable of using solar to provide a significant portion of their range.

I see the lack of fast charging stations as the most ridiculous argument against EVs that there is. Charge at home at night to help balance the grid, and charge during the day while the car is parked at home or at work using solar power. Charging is different that filling up a tank, and simply takes a bit of getting used to for it to be tremendously more convenient. For retards who don't grasp the change, there will be fast charging stations more than happy to make money selling them electricity at a markup.
 
Hillhater said:
johnrobholmes said:
I think we already have the batteries, or at least close enough that I'm willing to buy a nice electric car for my next purchase. .
Yes, except the cost is still a major barrier to most. more than double the price of equivalent ICE car to us down under.
That is a lot of extra investment ($30k ?) with a very unrealistically slow return (fuel savings) on c low mileage city car whose biggest running cost is tolls and parking !

the cost is why i am always watching for one of the iMiEVs to appear in the insurance auctions so i could afford to buy one. but the first one i find is all the way across country and $2500 to ship here on top of the bid. but that is where i am gonna keep looking because i think i can do alotta the stuff the dealer's 'franchise knowledge' of how they work which would otherwise make it financially impossible to the regular body shop guys who bid on these things.
 
John in CR said:
. Charging is different that filling up a tank, and simply takes a bit of getting used to for it to be tremendously more convenient. For retards who don't grasp the change, there will be fast charging stations more than happy to make money selling them electricity at a markup.
There will always be users who NEED fast recharges..
Taxis , Delivery vehicles, sales folk, police, etc etc.
Not everyone can afford to have their vehicles stood idle for hours at a time, and would be happy to pay a fair rate for the fast charge service.
One very real beneficiary of fast charge cells would be all those electric fork trucks that currently have to have multiple spare battery packs standing by on chargers in order to keep the trucks in use 24/7 . The savings from not needing spare batteries would be enormous.
 
The Tesla supercharger system is already a working example. It's already much nicer than using gas stations, even on long trips.
 
Elon Musk and the Tesla have been a game changer in many ways, other than being one of the most awesome vehicles put into production. Lets remember that when you buy a Tesla, you're buying a lifetime warranty on battery and the charging. They are in the process of building out their solar charging infrastructure, the promise of always being within 250 miles of a charging station. As well as attempting to set electric vehicle charging standards for universality.

Its why when Toyota announced the Mirai, they also are adopting a "universal" standard of hydrogen and working with the H2USA consortium for making that happen. For electric vehicles to go mainstream, the convenience factor must be accounted for, how much and how fast. Its hard to argue against a 5 minute full charge that will take you 300 miles, because you're just filling a hydrogen tank with gas. Note too that by the end of 2015, there will be less than a 1000 vehicles released into the USA market. They know it'll take 10 years to penetrate this market, like for the Prius. Despite the negative hype on this thread, they do know how to market a vehicle, even as radical as the Mirai.

My strategy for long-distance travel is set and effective. I take my eBike to the local bus station and load it on. A full charge gets me 20 miles. The bus, or train, takes me anywhere. My hope for the success of Tesla or Toyota or GM or any other manufacturer who dares the marketplace, is the INFRASTRUCTURE. Like battery factories, solar charging stations, the emergence of City based public charging. Because it enables me with my eBike, as well as anyone going electric with LEV tech. Hence my dismay that anyone here in ESLand would want to casually dismiss these brave new ventures into the future of transportation.
 
A Road Test of Alternative Fuel Visions - Hydrogen Cars Join Electric Models in Showrooms
Mirai.png
article said:
Not surprisingly, the strategy has its critics, particularly from competing Tesla. Elon Musk, the billionaire chief executive of Tesla, mocks fuel cells as “fool cells” that will lose in the marketplace to battery electric cars like his. Battery electrics are more efficient than fuel cells and are cheaper to operate. And there are currently many more places to plug in than places to top off a tank of hydrogen.

But battery electric cars have major technological shortcomings, too. They take time to recharge, they do not go as far as hydrogen cars between refueling, and the batteries required for larger vehicles make building them impractical, because the current lithium-ion batteries simply cannot hold enough energy to take larger vehicles over longer distances....

....The questions surrounding hydrogen fuel cells have always been “How expensive?” and “Where does the hydrogen come from?”...

...Dr. Chu, now a professor at Stanford University, is still among the skeptics — he, like Mr. Musk, sees electric batteries as the more promising path. But he said advances in solar and wind technologies made producing hydrogen by splitting water more economical. “I began to see more possibilities of clean hydrogen production,” he said in an interview last month.

...Other technologies could emerge, too. A hydrogen station in Fountain Valley, about 45 minutes from downtown Los Angeles, is in front of a wastewater treatment plant, because the hydrogen comes from human waste. After bacteria digest what has been flushed down toilets to produce a mix of carbon dioxide and methane, the gases are cleaned up and fed to a different type of fuel cell that produces electricity, heat and hydrogen, and the hydrogen is piped to the pump....
Finally, a major breakthrough - cars powered by human sh*t. Because we all know there's a LOT of that going around. Geeze, I wonder how much energy could be extracted right here on the ES forum?
 
You have to think of the hydrogen and fuel cell as the equivalent of a battery, an expensive one with a high energy density but a shocking discharge efficiency. Production of the hydrogen is equivalent of a battery charger, again expensive and very low efficiency.

For this reason, to my mind, the place for hydrogen is in the gap between current battery energy density and a future battery energy density, which is sufficient for our "needs". The problem is that gap is getting rapidly smaller, and despite decades(?) of promises, hydrogen is still not ready.
 
You can put electricity from the gird or Solar wind etc. Strait into a battery pack with VERY low losses. Then use it to power the Vehicle with again Very low losses.
When you make Hydrogen from solar wind etc. You have HUGE losses and a very complex system. Then using the Hydrogen to make electricity with a fuel cell you again have Huge losses. This is a NO Brainer its a VERY bad idea. Has been proven over and over again.
They are using Methane or LNG to make hydrogen but as Luke points out its still very lossy and guess what it produces carbon for the atmosphere!

Toyota has outright said electric vehicles are not the answer, why do you guys think they said that? MONEY! They are being shoved money behind some closed doors to lobby against electrics and Stall this as long as they can. It just so happens there is government research money and oil money LNG money all to push for the next fuel they can SELL you. All the big government and oil company's are scared shitless of the money they will not get if you just put solar on your property and drive electric for next to nothing!

After seeing this shit I will never buy anything Toyota EVER! Tesla has proven the pure electric to work perfectly and they will bring cheaper cars as they can. They are doing it right. For those who don't like the fact a model S cost so much there will be cheaper cars. Elon doesn't care if you buy Tesla he just wants you to drive electrics. If you are a start up and need to generate money you will need to start like tesla did and scale up production to get the cost down but at the same time build a great reputation with your premium cars.

I can't wait to see this PIECE of Crap Toyota Die!
 
Or... Toyota know they've lost any lead on EV and are betting/hoping the future is hydrogen, because it's the favourite of the enormous oil industry.

I saw a documentary about a year ago featuring a Toyota hydrogen fuel cell car along with and interview with the chief engineer. The car was a trailer queen, would have retailed for $1m if productionised and the engineer said was at least five years from the market. He emphasised that a hydrogen fuel cell car you could buy was a long way and couldn't even speculate on a timeline.

Something must have changed...
 
As a Toyota mechanic, I can just wonder about the amount of recalls this will produce. :lol: More money jobs for me!!
 
In a very interesting move, Toyota opens patents on hydrogen fuel cell technology, including 70 patents are directly related to hydrogen fueling stations," and patents also relate to Toyota’s upcoming Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car".
"We believe that hydrogen electric will be the primary fuel for the next 100 years," Carter said. "Now, it’s not going to happen overnight. By eliminating the traditional corporate boundaries, we can speed the metabolism of everyone’s research and development and move into a future of mobility quicker more effecively and more economically."
 
If the ignorant oil companies would utilize the large square area ABOVE all those gas pumps, install solar panels, and a large set of batteries, they would HAVE a super charger, just like Tesla, at EVERY gasoline location. They just don't see the woods for the trees. :roll:
 
Luke

Converting natural gas, methane, to hydrogen is called reformation. Not stripping. It is an endothermic reaction ( absorbs energy )

If the energy required for this reaction could be supplied by solar thermal then the process can be very energy efficient.

ICE efficiency is about 18 percent. Fuel cell about 40. Reformation adds about 30 percent more energy to the stream.

So 1.3×0.40= 0.52

So .52/.18= 2.88

So almost three times the efficiency
 
New news on Engadget about the Toyota Mira, be sure to watch the video at the bottom of the page..

Toyota bets on hydrogen with the FCV Mirai
http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/01/toyota-mirai/#continued
 
Good to note that hydrogen refuelling infrastructure is on track in Massachusetts....
As for other regions, the infrastructure just isn't there to even bother trying to sell a hydrogen vehicle. In the Northeastern portion of the United States the carmaker has teamed with Air Liquide to build 12 hydrogen stations in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island.
Doesn't mean I'll go from car-free back. Just looking at the long-term future for the region. Opens up the fuel cell option. Would love to see what's now a relic - the gasoline station - become universally an any fuel of your choice station, including fast EV charging, plug compatible with every emerging standard. Should be completely covered with solar pv, of course, grid tied and have natural gas as well. Maybe back to the independent gas station, as was the case in the early days?
 
Massachusetts is the only place in the country where they burn crude oil to make electricity in the winter when the natural gas supplies are not adequate because of the resistance of local forces to building new natural gas pipelines into the area to provide clean power.

multistage hydraulic fracturing has produced an excess of natural gas produced in the northeast but most of it cannot reach boston.

so instead they burn crude oil just like saudi arabia. then claim how environmental they are. they are mental for sure.
 
dnmun said:
Massachusetts is the only place in the country where they burn crude oil to make electricity in the winter when the natural gas supplies are not adequate because of the resistance of local forces to building new natural gas pipelines into the area to provide clean power.
Well, again, not so as you are making an ideological rather than informed statement. Massachusetts has unfortunately committed itself to multiple energy futures, including the one where our big-five dirty coal plants are being replaced by high-efficiency natural gas. And the pipelines are being completed in the face of massive public resistance to that future. We wanted and should be getting a renewable energy future with big off-shore wind. But the NE-ISO, Mass-DOER and big utilities have the power still and are going full tilt towards Natural Gas as the primary energy supply. Again, unfortunately - fracking is evil.
 
This car make a lot of sence to me as there's already a hydrogen refill station in port talbot around 25 miles from my home.
The car utilizes NiMH cells in a hybrid type config with the fuel cell and two large hyrogen tanks so it manages a 400mile range.
Ive been thinking a lot on how will the current energy juggling be managed and hydrogen plants based at large wind turbine sights to produce hydrogen when theres no grid demand makes a lot of sence to me rather than putting larger capacity batterys in the car and transporting the electrical energy through grid, turn it into hydrogen on sight with local refuelling stations the cars come and collect the energy on sight, so no transportation just spilt water with the turbines fill the cars on sight in 3 minutes job done like petrol never existed diesel what ?
 
I read Jeremy Rifkin's The Hydrogen Economy back in 2002 when it was first published. I thought "this is it" about the prospects of a clean & sustainable energy future based on that. But like all emergent technologies, it takes a lot of time to work out the kinks, make it affordable, scale it up, etc. I'm happy to see the inroads being made.

I live near WPI - Worcester Polytech - which has a hydrogen refueling station. They are technology partners in trying to push the tech into the mainstream. So a Mirai would make sense for me, should I want to transition back into car ownership. I'm currently car-free, now going on 5 years, with my eBike primary transportation. As I looked into buying into the car sector again earlier this year, because New England winters can be harsh and I still need to eat, I noticed that: 1> its still very expensive, 2> the promise of PAYD pay-as-you-driver insurance is still not a reality in Massachusetts and its PAYD that might keep my TCO - total cost of ownership low, and 3> I still have way more fun on the road winging around on my eBike.

The TCO of cars includes cost of purchase, insurance, maintenance & repair, the fuel, etc. When added up over a lifespan of around twenty years, its a huge number. I always think in terms of - if I had that money in pocket, what would I do with it? I'd rather invest it, through my self-managed IRA in companies that are working on the new future. That would include Toyota, as they're gambling in a big way for the car of the future. :mrgreen:
 
The first to adopt anything pay a higher price, But in the long run it will become more competitive and if the new generation becomes cheaper or these prove to be a very reliable and a good choice in the second hand market then hydrogen may steel the show in the long run.
How long is the fuel cell lifespan and cost to replace will be a key factor, £60000 is a massive figure for a run of the mill hatchback even if it does have a pixxy dust sticker in the window.
 
Ianhill said:
This car make a lot of sence to me as there's already a hydrogen refill station in port talbot around 25 miles from my home.
The car utilizes NiMH cells in a hybrid type config with the fuel cell and two large hyrogen tanks so it manages a 400mile range.
Ive been thinking a lot on how will the current energy juggling be managed and hydrogen plants based at large wind turbine sights to produce hydrogen when theres no grid demand makes a lot of sence to me rather than putting larger capacity batterys in the car and transporting the electrical energy through grid, turn it into hydrogen on sight with local refuelling stations the cars come and collect the energy on sight, so no transportation just spilt water with the turbines fill the cars on sight in 3 minutes job done like petrol never existed diesel what ?
Nice futuristic thinking! Currently 95% of hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, every conversion step means efficiency raise for sure. :) But being uneducated me, I would suggest stick to electric. Electrochemical storage proved to be the most efficient (on cycle level) and better cells are coming in daily. Hydrogen seems to be just another investment distraction that slows down electric storage development.
Current reality is- using hydrogen= using fossil fuels, but less efficiently.
 
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