Governments will tax electricity for vehicles

My day job is electronics and particularly short range communications. I'm currently in a European capital city for a committee meeting and some interesting discussions came out over dinner last night.

We're doing a lot of work in industry preparing for the Smart Grid. An intelligent power network is going to be essential for charging large numbers of EVs; its also useful for load balancing and sharing so that renewable energy soruces can be integrated. It turns out that governments are keen on this too.

Governments think they can sell the idea of bringing together RFID technology, the Smart Grid and EV charging to the public because it means you can drive your EV to a friend's house, plug it in and the electricity goes on your bill instead of his. That's how its going to be sold to the public, but the real reason is so they can tax the electricity going into the vehicle.

Governments get a large slice of revenue from taxing liquid fuels for transport. Quite often there is a low tax rate if the hydrocarbons are not used for road transport and a very high rate if they are. There is a whole complex administration to look after this. It looks like they are not going to let this go when EVs become commonplace. They will want to distinguish between electricity used for ordinary purposes and electricity used for transport and apply tax to the latter. Or to to be more accurate, to apply extra tax; electricity is already taxed in the UK.

This may not be news to some people; my source said that much of the documentation explaining this is already in the public domain if you know where to look - that's the way we have to do it in Europe, with multiple governments. But it was a surprise to me, especially as it removes one of the key advantages of EVs. Electricity supplied to the consumer is not necessarily greener or lower cost than hydrocarbon fuels; it's often made from the same hydrocarbons. The reason it's more attractive as a power source for vehicles is simply that its taxed less. If governments remove that advantage, the whole EV revolution collapses in a heap.

Another observation that came out was the governments' view that EV's are a win-win-win situation. Everybody wins. The auto makers get to sell consumers $40,000 dollar vehicles instead of $20,000 dollar ones; the governments get something new to tax and greater control than ever before; vehicle lifetimes go back to where they were before the manufacturers were forced to get serious over rust and reliability. Everyone gets to feel good about the environment.

So, everybody wins. Did anyone get left out of that list?

Nick

In related(?) news, Gov plans to tax electricity for electric razors...


...Oh, wait... they already do that

10Ck

So, I rekon solar charging stations are the next big thing. :?

the request for proposals, RFPs, for the buildout of the statewide electric vehicle charging spots here in oregon have included in the proposal requirements that the charging station be capable of reading the odometer and sending the odometer reading to the state through the net so that road use taxes can be assessed.

being jaded as i am i've seen this coming on the horizon since forever, having expressed these concerns numerous times on here.
but it gets even better.


all municipalities will at some point pass bylaws to replace their lost guzzle-lean revenue by requiring a permit for installing any PV panels within city limits.
once they know the # sq. feet of panel they got u by the short curlies.
then they also get their annual dividend tacking a surcharge onto ur property tax in perpetuity.

in a sneaky way this is already happening in several cites across canada.
how the devil gets his foot in the door is thru local solar tax incentives whereby the city chips in a few bux up front to purchase the equipment.
in exchange the homeowner signs an agreement to pay it back over a number of years with higher property tax.
and of course once taxes go up they never go back down even after the equipment has been paid for a hundred times over so don't swallow the bait.

however even if ur smart enuf to not get hooked, that will only speed up the likelyhood where requiring permits will become the norm.
it's a no-brainer people will clue in to realize that getting a permit is a trap & decide to simply go without one.
so in order to combat the cheaters & the problem of burgeoning guerilla solar installations it will be more efficient ($$) for the city to apply the solar levy universally.
if the leeches who routinely pick our pockets wish continue to live in the style & manner in which they have become accustomed, it is absolutely inevitable the levy will need 2b based on the either ur total available roof area or some small (at first) but continually upwards sliding percentage of the area of ur whole property.

my prediction/fear is u will be taxed on the amount of available solar resource regardless of whether or not u put up any solar panels.



the EV revolution has never been lacking for hardware.
we've been good to go for a hundred years.
the problem has always been one of software in collecting revenue.
the EV revolution has been deliberated stalled & will only happen once the same entities have secured all the choke points.
i've said it b4, they guard every exit, hold every key.
there's no reason to be surprised.

Sounds like it's past time to cull the politician herd.

Tiberius said:

The reason it's more attractive as a power source for vehicles is simply that its taxed less. If governments remove that advantage, the whole EV revolution collapses in a heap.

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Really? That's the only reason EVs are attractive? Because you have to pay fewer taxes to run them? ..hmmm, I must be drinking the wrong kool-aid then.

Tiberius said:

That's how its going to be sold to the public, but the real reason is so they can tax the electricity going into the vehicle.

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Am I the only one who doesn't see a problem with this? Roads have to get paid for somehow, and currently a lot of the tax revenue from motor-vehicle fuel taxes is routed into transportation. Take away that income source and you have a choice; either tax the new motor-vehicle fuel source or cut back on road upkeep.

How about another choice ??

Put all the freaking able bodied people on Welfare, or whatever it's called in other countries, out working on those roadways, both maintaining and rebuilding, while also, getting some bang for the bux that is being wasted on waste ??

That's how things got done during the depression. It was called WORK programs.

If the Authorities cannot figure a way to tax the fuel or Electricity (or gas or whatever) they will simply put a toll on ALL road use.
Probably GPS based type system that will be hard to avoid.
If that doesnt satisfy them , they could always simply introduce a tax on personal oxygen consumption !!
IE you pay for every breath you take ! ( and pay more if you live in a city or near a beach etc )
...maybe you get a credit if you live near a wast dump !!

Harold in CR said:

How about another choice ??

Put all the freaking able bodied people on Welfare, or whatever it's called in other countries, out working on those roadways, both maintaining and rebuilding, while also, getting some bang for the bux that is being wasted on waste ??

That's how things got done during the depression. It was called WORK programs.

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That could be part of the solution, and yes, I would completely support something like that, making the people on welfare actually work to get their welfare check. Prisoner labor would also help. The problem is, though, that neither of these is a complete solution because of two words: "Skilled Labor". Would you want the type of able-bodied person who ends up on welfare building an overpass that you're going to drive on and over? What about operating all the heavy machinery that is required to do a lot of that work? Point is, costs will only be reduced to a certain point, and the money has to come from somewhere.

Multi-thousand dollar registration fees per vehicle.. and here we were thinking a couple hundred was bad!

Companies would sue the gov for job losses due to the free labour

How is it free labor ?? They already feed at the Govt. teat. Just make 'em pony up to them shovels and brooms. Doesn't take a genius to mix and place concrete, OR, mix and place asphalt, OR bolt signs to stanchions. Almost anyone can drive, that collects. There are thousands of places to put that "Supposed" non-skilled labor.

Y'all would be surprised at how soon they show up for work, if their bellies are running empty. If they get "injured", stop paying them. All the self employed work, injured, up to a point. Gotta STOP the damn give-aways, PERIOD.

STOP exorbitant Pensions of Politicos, for just a couple-5 years in Govt. employ.

I'll gladly pay some kind of annual registration for an electric moped or very light EV as long as it's somehow relative to the weight of my EVs compared to cars and trucks. I consider those kinds of fees to be road use taxes, and those revenues should go only to building, maintaining, and policing the roadways. Before it's all said and done I will extract my own energy from the environment via solar and wind generation of electricity, and they can absolutely kiss my ass if they think I will pay any tax on that other than an initial sales tax on the equipment. I will move away from any locale that tries to tax what I obtain for free.

If sheep willingly go along with that kind of taxation to support a bloated and wasteful government, that's their choice, but it's definitely a choice and one I will never make.

Good luck taxing my solar array, eBike, eScooter, and/or eMotorcycle, suckers.
2 wheels for the win.

I figure this is coming. They have to figure out how to charge for road tax afterall.

John in CR said:

I'll gladly pay some kind of annual registration for an electric moped or very light EV as long as it's somehow relative to the weight of my EVs compared to cars and trucks. I consider those kinds of fees to be road use taxes, and those revenues should go only to building, maintaining, and policing the roadways.

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Tax based on weight is IMHO a good idea and a way to expose the ridiculous use of a 5000lb truck to transport 200lbs of human.

Ideally I guess tax should be based on weight and distance to be proportional to road wear.

Come to Ireland, we have lots of wonderful taxes on transport!

The new price of a car + vat + registration tax, which is added on after the vat! and can add 30% to the price of a new car,( after vat has been applied) one of the highest in Europe.

road tax C02 based since June 2008 and can cost from 110-2100 Euros I pay 600 Euros per year on a 2003 Audi A4 1.9 tdi 130 hp! 550 euros Insurance.
A 3.0 petrol for comparison would cost around 2100 Euros to tax per year. One of the reasons for so many 1.0-2.0 max litre engine cars here! anything over that is a rare sight!

tax on petrol and diesel again multi tax, you have excise duty, then vat applied after the excise duty, then C02 tax applied. today's prices are 1.48 for 1 litre of petrol and around 1.40 per 1 litre of diesel in U.S gallons that is around 7.50 to 8.00 U.S Dollars per 1 U.S Gallon!

I bet you think you have it bad if you live outside Ireland or the rest of the E.U eah? maybe now you feel a little better? :lol:

I believe it's just as simple as increasing road tax, they can't really increase the price of electricity. That's all they have to do, one thing for sure is no matter what form of transport we use you can be sure they will have some plan to tax it, is it no wonder so many people on the sphere have such an interest in E-Bikes? and the E.U wants to ruin that long before it really takes off. 250 watt limit. pedal assist only and I believe now they want battery voltage restrictions, and probably current!


I have no doubt in my mind that the next government which is due soon, will have to recoup the loss when eventually people switch to other alternative powered cars. The tax on fuel here is pure unfair and a disgrace to the working man that has to drive every day to work. I don't believe it should be free, just FAIR! And don't get me started on C02 tax, that's a brilliant idea this so called man made warming that broke all records for cold temps in most of the northern hemisphere including here! Now I know there is a lot more to that, and 1 year doesn't mean anything but it's not just 1 year, the warmest year was 1998 according to satellite data and is slowly coming down since, with up and down spikes.And some of the land data is questionable and not very reliable! ANd the temps are already colder than this time last year!

Didn't I say not to get me started?

Sounds like it's time to organize a general strike until some of these unfair taxes are dropped.

x88x said:

Harold in CR said:

How about another choice ??
Would you want the type of able-bodied person who ends up on welfare building an overpass that you're going to drive on and over? What about operating all the heavy machinery that is required to do a lot of that work? Point is, costs will only be reduced to a certain point, and the money has to come from somewhere.

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as i noticed the heavier the machinary the less work the operator inputs physically, most citizens see a buldozer and think "holy shit WTF look what huge stones and whatever he lifts thats scary probably a dirty job", ohhh loook at da FKing crane so HUUGE and toll save me jesus i'l never do that hard work", while the work consists of squeezing your feet and playing with joysticks.

taxes, when diesel came out widely which is consumed slower, people started converting cars to diesel, governmant simply raised taxes on diesel operated vehicles to compinsate on the taxes they could'v earned if you were driving fuel engine.

in israel few years ago when people started buying more 50cc scooters, gov raised taxes on insurance to again compinsate on the lose of fuel taxes if each of the 50cc scooter users were to drive a car.

about maintaining roads, asphalt holds 30 years, people overpaid for every generation of roads years ago and continu paying the mejority not for roads that's for sure , probably for killer police man that dont know how to disable bat or knife armed people by shotting their limbs instead dozen of head shots. very simple math.

no talking to gov's, hang'm all, it's only few hundred peole ruling hundred million.

force strike is due 80 years ago.

It's easy to separate out pieces of what someone else writes, like you did with disecting my earlier post.

The Hoover Dam was built with hundreds of UNSKILLED laborers, some of whom died because of the lack of safety requirements. Interstate Highways were built with hundreds of UNSKILLED laborers. ALL the bridges and overpasses were built with UNSKILLED laborers.

MY point was/is, get the deadbeats to work. REDUCE the amount of "Free" money handed out, to sit on your asses and drink beer all day.

Labor Unions and Trade Unions have dealt a blow to getting large jobs done. Before y'all Union members get yer panties in a wad, I WAS a Union Member, once upon a time. It was sickening how they tried to strangle major Companies, for idiotic things like Birthdays off, and such.

Unions use fear tactics to threaten complete stoppages of projects. Show me 1 Union member that has it tough, compared to those NON union, that have the same mouths to feed.

Sorry, I have a LONG list of things to cut off, that would start the economy on the road to recovery, starting with stop paying the idiots that think up/ pass all the stupid laws, that keep constant pressure on the economy.

For example, the new Health Care Bill. There is SO MUCH PORK in that humongous bunch of pages, instead of passing it, why not take it apart, and sort out everything NOT related to Health Care, and then debate THAT issue separately ??

Never gonna happen with Govt, Idiots running the show.