Please close this thread---it's ruined at page three

[Reid Welch]

Paul Knox wrote to me yesterday,

Lipo is the future for all electric vehicles; its the best we have.
And if the price keeps dropping and the specs keep going up,
we're all on to a winner.

An interesting statement, that.
The attractions of lipoly cobalt include

=greatest energy density of all lithium types.
=highest voltage per cell of any lithium type
=most compact form factor, owing to flat cell construction, usually in pouches.

There are some detractions to lipoly. We'll talk of them later.
This thread is for newbies and also old hands.

In particular this thread will review the 15Ah nominal capacity 37V pack
offered by EV Tech of Addison, Texas.

Why? Because I am buying their pack this week.
I'll document the battery here in this thread.

Let's look at their ad copy in the next form:

[Matt Gruber]

what happened to allisu(sp)?
20ah 37v 469$.

[Reid Welch]

Nothing happened to him. He offers me a fine-spec'd $500 pack.
But by the time it's delivered it's over $700 due to air shipping.
And, there is no company name behind him, no personal name, no references as yet (I'd be his first USA sale),
no track record for the pack,
and I'd have to pay by wire in advance of delivery.

I do believe aiicsu is legit and honorable.
Yet, I don't know what I'd do if my money got lost
or if the pack were to fail---long distance support is a great pain to consider.

For these reasons I reluctantly turned away from our aiicsu's offer.
I hope he will sell to someone here---one good sale will lead him to more.

_________

I am recovering from a disappointing purchase experience from BatterySpace
--their first lipoly pack was defective. Initial reports back from them
said that they could find nothing definitely wrong with the pack.
There was something definitely wrong---the pack cut out at half its rated drain rate
The end result: BS refunds my credit card this week.

I'm ready for some other firm's pack.
I want it to just plain work.
I want a couple of years' service.
I don't want to prototype or build my own pack of this nature;
I want something with a past, with expertise behind it.

The EV Tech pack has good user reports, just learned this recently.
I couldn't have known these things by reading their presently-poor ad copy and empty review page.

Aside from the call-caps ad copy, miserable product illustration
and the stiff pricing, this is what really put me off months ago:

On sale since 12/05 without user reviews at all.

For these reasons I did not consider the EV Tech pack for purchase in the first place.
And that result was no mistake of mine---what else was there to go on?
Confusion, as it turned out.

And so in ignorance, when BS offered their new lipoly pack,
I jumped on that item. The price was right enough, but,
the pack did not work out well. I had to return it for repair or refund.

Now I am back to square one again.
This time I know more about the EV Tech pack
and that's why I'm buying with full confidence.
That's why I'm electing for refund instead of a new pack from BatterySpace.

I'll apply the money instead to the EV Tech pack purchase.


.

[xyster]

Look forward to your review, Reid. The EV Tech pack is twice the price for about twice the capacity as that B.S. pack, plus it's got a good track record. From everything I've read, it sounds like the best option going for pre-built lithium.

[Reid Welch]

Yes, and at this time the EV Tech pack is the sole ready to go e-bike lipo pack for sale in the USA or Canada
other than the beta-phase BS pack.

If we can help sell more packs the price is sure to come down in time.
First step is to run it and write about it and post primary user reports here,
or quote user reports which might be found in other places


Any EV Tech pack users here?
Please share your impressions and reviews.

[Matt Gruber]

Reid
imo u got lucky on the BS pack.
had it lasted 100 cycles and then failed u'd likely be out the money.
.
anyway it sure takes a long time to fully test if u ride only 2x a week like me LOL;
i'm still testing the $10 sla's i got surplus more than a year ago.
.
good luck; these will be fine, i bet!

[Reid Welch]

Right on, Matt. The BS pack only has a 30 day warranty.
I know they mean well but it's hard to communicate with those folks.

It goes like this, example:

"The charging plug sparks upon connection and it welded itself together. I had to cut it off and I've put a trailer connector in its place"

reply, paraphrased:

"We don't know why you get spark. Please do not cut off charger cord change with adapter instead"

(I had no adaptor. I had already cut off the cord).


"The pack cuts out at 20A sustained. My bike's controller is 35A"

reply, paraphrased:

"We had no trouble with test pack here. How much current does controller draw?
If more than 40A, then no warranty. Pack is warrantied for 40A."


and so on...I answer "A" and they reply "How much is A", that sort of thing.

Even now, the latest communication from them is that they have not found the pack to cut off for -them-
(they recharged it with a known-good charger, not the charger I used)
but they will graciously enough refund my card.

I think the pack's problem was in the defective charger: Their 42V charger did not put out 42V, and so the pack never went into balancing mode.

That's my guess. I only know that I don't make stuff up.

[xyster]

Very frustrating...

Anyway, do you know where knoxie got his 48v20ah lipo pack? I remember thinking it looks and sounds a lot like the one aiiscu is selling.

[Reid Welch]

Very frustrating...

Anyway, do you know where knoxie got his 48v20ah lipo pack? I remember thinking it looks and sounds a lot like the one aiiscu is selling.

See why I was confused? You have at the moment that same confusion.

Here's the situation: Knoxie reviews packs for Team Hybrid in the UK.
Team Hybrid distributes these packs, and the packs all come from EV Tech.
EV Tech specs and orders these packs from their China supplier.

So, this pack I'm to buy is the same pack that Knoxie runs.

And yes, the pack -looks- to be the same constructional philosophy as the packs which e-s member aiicsu wants to sell to us.

That's to say they look of the same style.
There are so many battery makers in China.

----
I will talk to Doug Canfield, engineer at EV Tech to learn more about his product and why it is supposed to be so good. We talked by phone yesterday.
I'd want to get more details, or at least be sure to relate his words correctly.

He mentioned user talk about the pack exists at the TidalForce group at at Google groups.

I'll be going there to read archives then and report back.
You do the same if you please?

We're looking for warts as well as for beauty.

I'll be happy with warts on my toad so long as it hops pretty well.

[xyster]

See why I was confused? You have at the moment that same confusion.

Am I?

http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalfor ... dbce5baf3a


"Hi Steve

The 48V Lipo is 20AH rated (60A Peak) 45A continuous and it is as follows

48V 20AH (265 x 160 x 150) Length, Depth, Height in mm (9.1kg)

It may be alittle too big for bike applications It would suit being mounted
low down in the frame.

I need to get and test it soon and will have to devise a way of doing so
easily, its a little too heavy to have on my back for any length of time and
its a lot of weight high up on me, I think I will get an Xtracycle!!

Cheers

Paul "

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 0010566b0d

"I have a nice 48V 20AH lipo pack that would sit nicely in the tray!
...
Knoxie"

The pic knoxie posted:

[Reid Welch]

Now that's a different pack than I'm getting, of course.

Are you saying that illustrated pack is a clone-match for a pack aiicsu offered? I don't recall the details of aiicsu's pictures by memory at this moment--and have not bothered to check.


I'll go read the TF forums now.

Thanks,
r.

[xyster]

Are you saying that illustrated pack is a clone-match for a pack aiicsu offered? I don't recall the details of aiicsu's pictures by memory at this moment--and have not bothered to check.

I haven't compared the specs of knoxie's 48v20ah lipoly pack vs aiiscu's 48v20ah lipoly pack, but prima facie they appear very similar.

Aiiscu's:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=293
"48V/20Ah(14s)
dimension:160*170*270mm
voltage:58.8~42V
Capacity:20Ah
max current:100A "

Check out aiiscu's pics here -- looks like a suspiciously similar blue-box affair:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=601

Here's knoxie's review:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ow+battery

[Malcolm]

Yes, and at this time the EV Tech pack is the sole ready to go e-bike lipo pack for sale in the USA or Canada

Hi Reid,

The EV Tech battery sound very good. Hope it works out well for you. Just wondered if you had come across these batteries http://www.ev-battery.com/Batteries/PricesDoc.html during your research? I just found them today. I guess they're LiPo but haven't found much information about the chemistry yet. They're being sold as replacements for automotive batteries. Very expensive, but come with 5-year warranty and can be charged using a lead-acid smart charger. I need to take a closer look.

[Reid Welch]

OK, I'll do that. You're a great sleuther.

What throws me is that Knoxie, the super-active guy, talks of this or that in such familiar terms--terms familiar to himself at to a few cogncenti;
if we aren't up on it all, we don't know how to quite sort it out


I see by reading that first TF thread, the one that you gave, xyster,


=Point One pack is their name for this pack sold by EV Tech.
=Mark at Team Hybrid distributes this pack. Yet Mark also offers a similar 37V pack not of EV Tech design.

Here are their differences, as I begin to glean between them.
This will be highly imperfect and incomplete. Bear with me:


=The EV Tech pack is 15Ah nominal because that's only the raw capacity of the cells.
=In use it will afford about 10 to 12Ah delivery. The BMS is designed to slow the battery down as it nears its end state, yet before total cut off.
It does this to extend cycle life. So in fact (as I learned elsewhere),
=the EV Tech pack is more nearly more truly a 10Ah pack if run hard, and a 12Ah pack if run moderately.

=The new 37V pack from Mark at Team Hybrid (not related to the EV Tech pack) does not have a LV coast-down feature.
=It does not have a LV cut off point
=It seems to have lower internal impedance (miniscule voltage sag)

Ergo, it's no surprise Paul/knoxie can draw upwards of 17Ah from the pack before it falls so low as 32V.

Perhaps it has larger cells. But to my thinking it does appear the TH 37V pack is giving more Ah becuase its BMS is inactive on that front.
And less voltage sag may owe to something of the same reason: little or now BMS in series with the output.
That's my noobie guess, is all.

I'll be back to edit this ramble for better clarity and wording later.
It's a goal to sort the presentation out as clearly yet in as much detail as possible.

Following is a paste of a post from the TF forum.

[Reid Welch]

A TF group's user review of the present model 37/15Ah EV Tech pack

http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalfor ... dbce5baf3a

L-A-commuter
View profile
More options Feb 5, 1:18 am
From: "L-A-commuter" <dave_>
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 21:18:11 -0800
Local: Mon, Feb 5 2007 1:18 am
Subject: Re: New Lipo Batts

Sorry I took forever to get these #'s but today was the 1st decent day
for biking in california since November or so. (89°F,... 31°C)

Single EV-Tech Point 1 Li-poly with about 50 charging cycles:
230 lb rider on a flat course along the L.A. river:
750Sx (turbo not used for this ride)

I wrote the following #'s after my drain-brain said I'd used 10ah:

10ah used
travelled 16 miles @ 17 mph avg speed for 55 min
36.2 volts remaining
367 watt hours @ 22.6 W/H per mile

Finished the ride @ 12ah used before I noticed performance hit.

DAVE


Dave's letter above is found at the bottom of the link page.
Pastes of posts and bits from higher up on that same page:



L-A-commuter
View profile
More options Jan 13, 11:47 pm
From: "L-A-commuter" <dave_>
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 19:47:10 -0800
Local: Sat, Jan 13 2007 11:47 pm
Subject: Re: New Lipo Batts

When I hook up my drainbrain to my single EV-Tech lipo I normally
measure 14 or 15 ah before i reach the 32v mark.
DAVE

____________________
___________


I see need to read a lot more about the EV Tech pack
to learn just how its BMS strategy works.

I'll want to speak to Doug Canfield, engineer of the EV Tech pack, to get the straight scoop on its protection phase and discharge characteristic.

________________________
________________


Meanwhile I'll read other threads at the TidalForce pages.


edit: search the TF forum for:

"point one"
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalfor ... this+group

"point 1"
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalfor ... this+group

"EV Tech lithium"
http://groups.google.com/group/Tidalfor ... this+group

[Reid Welch]

The TidalForce forum
Profile
http://groups.google.com/groups/profile ... ai3nV4-Wfg
where also to find his most recent postings
screenshot


(Doug is the EV Tech principal behind this pack)

How he handles a trouble inquiry
http://tinyurl.com/32kobg

It means a lot to have access to the engineer and have
useful and cogent answers instead of riddles and run-arounds.

[knoxie]

Hi

Yes the point-1 packs Mark gets from a the same US supplier that Doug gets his cells from, the blue cells are supplied by a Chinese source, I cant say if they are from the poster on here, they look similar.

The blue packs were high capacity but were a little on the large side compared to the point-1 packs, they worked very well and indeed the 37V pack could put out 17ah without dropping below 32V which is amazing, the point-1 packs are more conservative but are great packs none the less and are a lot smaller and lighter.

I have been using the point-1 packs for nearly a year with only 1 problem when a motor controller failed under heavy load, the BMS failed in the pack, I have new BMS to straight swap as the pack is still fine, the only failures Doug has seen with these packs has been the BMS and they can be replaced, the cells themselves are fine.

Its the best you could do Reid, the blue packs are also great but my concern with them was that the BMS didn't seem to cut the packs off when the capacity drops, the point-1 packs are amazing and cut off under LV cut off and also short circuit, they cut off so fast during short circuit they go quicker than the fuse.

There isn't any Lipo packs out there at the moment of this capacity that have been tested, the KMX video from last week was shot with one, the pack pumped put 40A at times! and this pack is a year old.

Cheers

Knoxie

[Reid Welch]

I made my first voice contact with Doug Canfield just yesterday.
I told him why I had passed up on his pack long ago: I had no information then.
I told him that the price was too stiff, given the lack of information.

Doug refered me to the TF forums for more information and history,
and he basically told me just what you see below in this quote of is words
written there today, a couple of hours ago:

http://tinyurl.com/2qmp7q

Apr 15, 2:36 pm
From: "plasmadust" <dcanfi>
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:36:05 -0700
Local: Sun, Apr 15 2007 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Battery Options - Real progress or just vapor?

I have a few secs, so I'll jump in here.
First, if you look at the battery on the web site you see that it is
the gen two version, with the removable BMS section. We did this
because of the two problems we had in the last two years, both were
BMS problems. Believe me when I tell you the BMS board is the least
expensive portion of the battery pack.
Second, we are just now getting gen three in testing. The big
difference here is the cells are individually encased. This gives you
the option of building your own pack and cells that can be replaced
(if necessary)should one go South on you.
Third we are testing the next gen LiFePo4 batteries that hold even
greater promise than the LiPoly in all aspects including price and
performance, not to mention a 50% increase in cycle life.
As for price in general. We have established a toe hold in the market
and the market is expanding to the point that you should see some
price reductions in the very near future.
I paid over $5,000 for my first personal computer guys and gals, then
again the market was smaller then.
What I want to stress here is that there has been more advances in
this battery technology that has come into consumers hands in the last
three years, than in the last fifty years.
Things be moving fast, and I do not see it slowing down anytime soon.
DC

Would I want a gen III pack or the present gen II?
Well, the cells are the same.
The height is a bit taller in the gen III pack.
The gen II pack has flying leads.
The gen III pack will have sockets.
The gen II pack is fully debugged.

I'll probably do better with the gen II pack on this point mainly:
the present height happens to be nearly ideally neat for the mounting place it will occupy
on my Currie Mongoose cruiser bike.
Even another quarter inch taller may reduce mounting options in my situation. Flying leads are OK here.


My bike as it was with the small 8Ah BS pack temporarily lashed with duct tape.



The Point One pack is taller than the BS pack.

Mounting:
I'll bend a strip of heavy gauge aluminum into an "L" shape,
glue bond the Point one to the L.

The L will have studs bottom and back for nutting this carrier
to the BB controller cubby top and to the backstop of the OEM battery box.

[EbikeMaui]

I made my first voice contact with Doug Canfield just yesterday.
I told him why I had passed up on his pack long ago: I had no information then.
I told him that the price was too stiff, given the lack of information.

Doug refered me to the TF forums for more information and history,
and he basically told me just what you see below in this quote of is words
written there today, a couple of hours ago:

http://tinyurl.com/2qmp7q

Apr 15, 2:36 pm
From: "plasmadust" <dcanfi>
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 11:36:05 -0700
Local: Sun, Apr 15 2007 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Battery Options - Real progress or just vapor?

I have a few secs, so I'll jump in here.
First, if you look at the battery on the web site you see that it is
the gen two version, with the removable BMS section. We did this
because of the two problems we had in the last two years, both were
BMS problems. Believe me when I tell you the BMS board is the least
expensive portion of the battery pack.
Second, we are just now getting gen three in testing. The big
difference here is the cells are individually encased. This gives you
the option of building your own pack and cells that can be replaced
(if necessary)should one go South on you.
Third we are testing the next gen LiFePo4 batteries that hold even
greater promise than the LiPoly in all aspects including price and
performance, not to mention a 50% increase in cycle life.
As for price in general. We have established a toe hold in the market
and the market is expanding to the point that you should see some
price reductions in the very near future.
I paid over $5,000 for my first personal computer guys and gals, then
again the market was smaller then.
What I want to stress here is that there has been more advances in
this battery technology that has come into consumers hands in the last
three years, than in the last fifty years.
Things be moving fast, and I do not see it slowing down anytime soon.
DC

Would I want a gen III pack or the present gen II?
Well, the cells are the same.
The height is a bit taller in the gen III pack.
The gen II pack has flying leads.
The gen III pack will have sockets.
The gen II pack is fully debugged.

I'll probably do better with the gen II pack on this point mainly:
the present height happens to be nearly ideally neat for the mounting place it will occupy
on my Currie Mongoose cruiser bike.
Even another quarter inch taller may reduce mounting options in my situation. Flying leads are OK here.


My bike as it was with the small 8Ah BS pack temporarily lashed with duct tape.



The Point One pack is taller than the BS pack.

Mounting:
I'll bend a strip of heavy gauge aluminum into an "L" shape,
glue bond the Point one to the L.

The L will have studs bottom and back for nutting this carrier
to the BB controller cubby top and to the backstop of the OEM battery box.

GMB BATTERY
http://tinyurl.com/26ft5j
Endless-sphere.com :: View topic - BatterySpace 37V/8AH Lipoly ...Q: what's the name of the Texas ebike place that sells Puma motors and lipoly ... Those are made from Chineese GMB cells that cost $250.a pack FOB china. or ...
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?

[knoxie]

Draper

WHERE DO YOUR LIPOS COME FROM!

You have no Idea where these packs come from again you are surmising, I know where they come from because we buy them!

Its not enough for you to naysay peoples motors but now you feel the need to do the same to peoples batteries, you are also running GMB sourced cells in your batteries my friend so why are you shitting on these packs.

Pry open your lipos and take some pictures and I will do the same ,there's nothing to choose between any of these packs, You have not tried these packs..I have so why don't you zip your mouth until you have some personal experience with them.

Jesus Randy you must be the most hated person in the ev world, nice one

Knoxie

[EbikeMaui]

Draper

WHERE DO YOUR LIPOS COME FROM!

You have no Idea where these packs come from again you are surmising, I know where they come from because we buy them!

Its not enough for you to naysay peoples motors but now you feel the need to do the same to peoples batteries, you are also running GMB sourced cells in your batteries my friend so why are you shitting on these packs.

Pry open your lipos and take some pictures and I will do the same ,there's nothing to choose between any of these packs, You have not tried these packs..I have so why don't you zip your mouth until you have some personal experience with them.

Jesus Randy you must be the most hated person in the ev world, nice one

Knoxie

The BEST from Chins is is at best OK is you discharge them at less than 1 C for a couple hundred cycles IF you are lucky!
Time will tell and your clock is ticking. It is only people like YOU that hate the truth...

[EbikeMaui]

Draper

WHERE DO YOUR LIPOS COME FROM!

You have no Idea where these packs come from again you are surmising, I know where they come from because we buy them!

Its not enough for you to naysay peoples motors but now you feel the need to do the same to peoples batteries, you are also running GMB sourced cells in your batteries my friend so why are you shitting on these packs.

Pry open your lipos and take some pictures and I will do the same ,there's nothing to choose between any of these packs, You have not tried these packs..I have so why don't you zip your mouth until you have some personal experience with them.

Jesus Randy you must be the most hated person in the ev world, nice one

Knoxie

The BEST Lipos from China are at best only OK i(for the price the chineese are charging IF you discharge them at less than 1 C for a couple hundred cycles IF you are lucky!
Time will tell and your clock is ticking. It is only people like YOU that hate the truth...

[EbikeMaui]

There isn't any Lipo packs out there at the moment of this capacity that have been tested, the KMX video from last week was shot with one, the pack pumped put 40A at times! and this pack is a year old.

Cheers

Knoxie

Your saying Kokams have NOT ben tested? Short spurts are no comparison to the long high amp run times with Kokams.Do the low amp tests for EXTRA long run times and cycle life.= 1000 cycles at .5 C with safe 160 amp peaks.

[Reid Welch]

Ah well--I have a high tolerance for trollers.
Still, Randy, you are sloppy with research presentations and you make endless unproven allegations and assertions.
It's bad for the spirit. You bite your own end.
The world is not against you, Randy. It's you, yourself.

_____________
_________


Paul, thanks for the early advisements above on this page.
I had not seen it---posted after you.

Yes, clearly the Point 1 pack from Doug is what I want.
The size is as large as I can handle, to fit in the available battery box space.


The fact that the pack well liked and proven (Randy's assertions are baseless), makes its choice the only choice for me.

And its in a neat plain aluminum box.
No other packs at present are encased, other than aiiscus unknown packs and Mark's blue packs. And there is no Kokam pack available in the USA randy, not in a metal box and not that you can buy.

And the only other packs I know of are the two Velectris offerings,
Far away in France. And one Velectris is generic, and one is Kokam and neither is boxed--I'd have to make a box and buy the charger too.

Doug Canfield's pack is the way I will go.
It includes the charger and domestic technical support.


______________
_______
And Randy, you can tell me how bad this Point 1 pack is
after all of your volcanos go cold.

Rip into your rubble, show pictures of cells,
rocks.

I live in a flat area without active eruptions.
I think the forethought built in the Point 1
will carry me farther than your magma flow.

I'm so-so rude in my best reply today, ha ha
..................................:roll:



.................................................................................................ha! haaaaa!

[EbikeMaui]

Ah well--I have a high tolerance for trollers.
Still, Randy, you are sloppy with research presentations and you make endless unproven allegations and assertions.
It's bad for the spirit. You bite your own end.
The world is not against you, Randy. It's you, yourself.

_____________
_________


Paul, thanks for the early advisements above on this page.
I had not seen it---posted after you.

Yes, clearly the Point 1 pack from Doug is what I want.
The size is as large as I can handle, to fit in the available battery box space.


The fact that the pack well liked and proven (Randy's assertions are baseless), makes its choice the only choice for me.

And its in a neat plain aluminum box.
No other packs at present are encased, other than aiiscus unknown packs and Mark's blue packs. And there is no Kokam pack available in the USA randy, not in a metal box and not that you can buy.

And the only other packs I know of are the two Velectris offerings,
Far away in France. And one Velectris is generic, and one is Kokam and neither is boxed--I'd have to make a box and buy the charger too.

Doug Canfield's pack is the way I will go.
It includes the charger and domestic technical support.


______________
_______
And Randy, you can tell me how bad this Point 1 pack is
after all of your volcanos go cold.

Rip into your rubble, show pictures of cells,
rocks.

I live in a flat area without active eruptions.
I think the forethought built in the Point 1
will carry me farther than your magma flow.

I'm so-so rude in my best reply today, ha ha
..................................:roll:



.................................................................................................ha! haaaaa!

My points were made with my proof If you have any creditable proof of YOUR assertions I.m waiting.. lol The clock will still be ticking while you keep shopping without a clue.Just like Knoxie gives there cycle life reports after a few months.. after the packs are renderd usless. HAHAHAHA Give us your REAL results next year.