Voicecoil's red, fully rigid commuter

[voicecoils]

I just checked the controller and the key switch is at the horizontal position pointing to red mark.

When I was getting the phase wiring figured out several months ago, the combo I posted was the only one to work smooth. Others made a crazy noise and amp load was 10+A at a few mph. So the wiring I have and the key switch in that position works well. There's absolutely nothing but smooth motor accel all the way to wide open throttle. No unusual vibrations or anything like that.

I hope this helps

btw - I should mention the 66v is really good for commuting and I get good acceleration thru 30mph. At 48v I was just at 20-21mph, and needed more for safer travels. I really hope your gears survive. Also plan to pull the motor apart and photograph my gears after 2000 miles which should be in a few weeks. (I ride about 50miles round trip 5 days per week)

Nog

Sweet, yes it helps. My switch was broken when I bought it. I think "open" is forward, "connected" is reverse. Inside the controller is a little 2 pin plug that connects to the key. So in one position the key closes the connection (reverse) and the other position is open (forward). I don't know which is which regarding red/green.

It would be useful to know if others want to replicate the setup, however I'm fairly convinced now that we are running the exact same wiring. I had to use a hard drive jumper connector to jump my controller. I think docnjoj's wiring was not correct, and it matches your description and my own experience.

If the rain stops I will go try out the bike again If it doesn't, I might head out anyways!

66v does sound sweet. My current batteries can't do that (36v or 72v) and I do need to get some use from them before I invest in more. Your commute sounds full on. I'm very interested to see photos of your bike and the gears. If they've survived I will be quite amazed. The gap between 66v and ~80v is decent though, perhaps it made all the difference.

How do you tackle hills? Wide open throttle & peddling like mad?

[docnjoj]

Interesting about the jumper in the Crystalyte 20 A 36-72 volt with problems. I will take mine apart today and give a looksee! If it works, it would be great to have a real backup controller! My controller box has no switches or other proturberances of any kind, just wires coming out! Kool, voicecoils!
otherDoc

[voicecoils]

Interesting about the jumper in the Crystalyte 20 A 36-72 volt with problems. I will take mine apart today and give a looksee! If it works, it would be great to have a real backup controller! My controller box has no switches or other proturberances of any kind, just wires coming out! Kool, voicecoils!
otherDoc

Hi Docnjoj, I don't know if yours will be the same on the inside but here's mine:

72v35a_guts.jpg (53.51 KiB) Viewed 730 times

You can see the empty 2 pin socket next to the 5 wire socket and a little chip. It's called "S2" on mine. I just popped a jumper in it. Worked a charm with Nogwin's wiring. I think you'll be impressed

[voicecoils]

Ok, finally got a decent ride in, at 36v nominal. Not sure how many km I traveled total but I closely estimate ~20km. I consumed 138.7Wh according to my CA or 3.7Ah. Pack started at around 42v and resting voltage 5min after I finished my ride was 39.4v My charger took around just under an hour before going into the float/balance stage. My kill-a-watt says it drew 140Wh from the wall. I know my charger and battery are not 98.5% efficient so either the CA or kill-a-watt is slightly off.

I checked the gears afterwards, the look minty fresh and slimed up nicely with the Moly grease. Hope they stay that way!

I had a 30A fuse in line which I did not blow. The cycle analyst reported Amax = 69.3A which I do not think is correct. I did not witness higher then 22A on the CA, though I was not looking at it the whole time obviously.

At 36V I only seem to get up to around 25kph. Not very fast, though I can pedal it up a bit beyond. Once it hits max speed the current draw really drops, down to just a few amps. I can see the appeal of upping voltages now, otherwise you do hit a wall with the speed. My max speed was ~42 kph but that was going downhill. I peddled from starts and kept the amps under 10A most of the time.

The internal gear hub is great. I can be grinding out the top gear and when I come up to a stoplight I just brake, stop. Then shift down to an appropriate gear and it's ready to go on the green light. It's a great partner to the hubmotor.

I'm liking the front rack and the controller mounting. It's very convenient.

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With the battery pack in a backpack (sitting on the rack when riding) I can leave the bike locked up outside. It doesn't draw much attention at all. I've got lots of wiring I haven't cut yet, so it's just coiled in the little bag on the rack. Works fine for now.

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Changed from the ubolts to these rubber mounted P-clamps. They work MUCH better. I went about 15km on the u-bolts and they slid down a bit. If they had slid down more it would have wedged between the fork and the hub. That would have been a disaster.

[voicecoils]

The last 5 km I had my GPS with me. Here's the output of speed & elevation graphed vs distance:

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I felt like I was going faster, but oh well. 36v does have limitations. I'd much prefer to be able to stay in the 30-40kph zone more of the time. I should do the trip in reverse and see how it compares.

Overall I'm quite happy. Frame feels great at speed, even fully rigid. Even with the battery weight over the front wheel. Getting the batteries in the frame will be a big step forward. 36v is fine for now. I eagerly await metal gears. I'd like torque arms, a front disc mount (and disc holes drilled in the hub) and a way to read speed with the plug in CA. Anyone know how to wire in a magnet & sensor speed pickup to the plug in CA?

[Mathurin]

Damn dawg, that ride looks fat with the CETMA! Ridin' on yo new pimp throne, haterz gonna be jealous how yo bitchez riding in style.

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[voicecoils]

Damn dawg, that ride looks fat with the CETMA! Ridin' on yo new pimp throne, haterz gonna be jealous how yo bitchez riding in style.

Hmm there are a lot of small dogs carried around in designer bags in my neck of the woods, but I don't know that I want to get down with the trend.

Maybe I need a hub motor with chrome spinners?

The CETMA rack is sweet but in hindsite I think the price is rather expensive, even as a handmade item.

[voicecoils]

Latest iteration:

Additions: rear rack and larger chainring (from 32t to 46t). Not pictured is my 1.7kg Kryptonite New Yorker 3000, but you can see the mount for it on the rear triangle near the seat.

Using 1/2" track chain and 1/2" track 16t freewheel + non-ramped/pinned DH chainring.
With my tire size, crank length and gearing with the Alfine hub, at a cadence of 80 rpm I have a speed range (pedal only) of 15kph to 46kph according to the Sheldon Brown Internal Gear Calculator. It's pretty much perfect if the 30km ride I did today is any indication.

Soon to try 72v again, but will limit current to 10A with the cycle analyst and a fuse. Can't afford to keep buying new gears!
See here for performance calcs: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7232

Battery feels fine on the rear rack strapped down in the bag. ~5kg with the bag, fuse and wiring. I'll put the second battery on the front. Plan is to free up both racks by getting batteries into the main triangle as soon as I can. Bike is a porky ~22kg without batteries or lock, and a pain to lug up the stairs.

Easy emergency disconnect on the top tube, just yank the powerpoles

36v_redbike.jpg

ignore the garbage and messy kitchen. I'm in love with velcro straps.

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[pwbset]

Soon to try 72v again, but will limit current to 10A with the cycle analyst and a fuse.

Probably already know this, but remember that the CA will pulse way above and below before finally settling on 10a. If you ask Justin he might be able to get you faster response adjustment settings. It's the same with the CA speed control. Still wouldn't floor it if you want to keep that last set of gears non-peanut buttery. That's a sweet looking ride. Good luck.

[voicecoils]

Probably already know this, but remember that the CA will pulse way above and below before finally settling on 10a. If you ask Justin he might be able to get you faster response adjustment settings. It's the same with the CA speed control. Still wouldn't floor it if you want to keep that last set of gears non-peanut buttery. That's a sweet looking ride. Good luck.

So far I've seen the current limit stay within +-0.50A, which seems like pretty reasonable control to me. If I blow the 10A fuse, I'll know it can stay above 10A for too long. But, who knows even 15A might be OK if the bike is ridden carefully or if the crystalyte controller has a smoother throttle then the 72v28A old ecrazyman controller.

Cheers for the bike complement

[voicecoils]

I've done 60-70km total now. Just checked my hubmotor again and the gears are looking alright. They've slung much of the moly grease off the teeth but haven't shredded yet.

I road ~5km today at 80V with the current limited to 10A. This lead me to realise that the CA's max speed setting of 99kph was causing the controller to cut power to the motor at around 23kph actual speed. I think the same thing was happening when I was operating at ~40v. It explains why I was getting nice assistance up hills and off the line but a piss weak top speed. I've started a thread about that here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7271

Now I'm curious to find out what my real top speed is at 40v and 80v respectively on level ground. Hopefully I can find this out tomorrow.

[voicecoils]

checked the gears again, they're fine and still greased up well.

One thing I've noticed with 3 gear assembly is that it is not fixed in position with relation to the ring gear. In other words, it can wobble around and therefore no longer mesh with the ring gear on the same parallel plane. If that makes sense. One would hope, that when the motor is bolted together that everything is held in place nice and straight and tight, but there may be wiggle room to go out of alignment, who knows...

I've made three youtube videos. The first shows the motor only (no gears or freewheel mechanism) in my dropouts. Hubmotor case/wheel and gears can be seen in the background. First I throttle up the motor at ~40v, this consumes 24W and registers as 33.3 kph on the cycle analyst. Using the 1666mm wheel diameter trick programed into the CA (which outputs speed in kph as 10s of RPMs) that gives an 1100-1110 RPM wide open throttle (WOT). Then in the same clip, I add a second pack in parallel for ~80W. It shows 75W power, 65.7kph, and 2210-2220 RPM. In both cases the motor sounds quite nice and smooth to me. With no mechanical reduction this is the best (quietest) the bafang will sound like:

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fdxLmGQGEU&fmt=18

Ok, next up 40v in the wheel. First I throttle up and then down very slowly and smoothly. Then I go straight to WOT and dump it back to zero. Listen to the mechanical sounding clunking. I suggest you stop the video at 1:55. My girlfriend suggests it's blindingly boring to watch you may agree:

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3yQi2DxZq0&fmt=18

Lastly, 80v in the wheel. Same tests as above.

High Quality here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwTkL1QPM9I&fmt=18

Although the wheel wobbles a bit in the video, it's extremely close to dead true. I had a bike shop true it on their truing stand and with the bike upside down in the and looking at the rim passing through the brakes side to side and up-down movement is very very small.

I'm curious about the mechanical clunking. Gears, freewheel? I'd like the motor as quiet as possible. I'm tempted to pack it with more grease but I don't want too much slinging into the motor windings.

[shinyballs]

Cooool video! especially at 80v... Your center frame triangle is begging for batteries.

[voicecoils]

Cooool video! especially at 80v... Your center frame triangle is begging for batteries.

Cheers. I agree completely about the main triangle. At the start of december I'll have more free time and will be attacking both bikes full bore. Can't wait!

I've noticed the motor/gears really only sounds happy when they're going full bore WOT and not being stressed. So at ~40V this happens between 20-25 kph on gentle hills, 24-27kph on the flats, and 25-30kph on gentle down hills (all with light peddling). I have to moderate my peddling to keep the motor in the "sweet spot" while WOT. It starts whining below which is not stealthy and sounds crap IMO and if I peddle past the "sweet spot" then power levels drop under 100W and the motor can't spin fast enough to do useful work.

[rguy56]

Your wheel can be perfectly true, but bike tires are rarely, if ever, perfect. Honestly, I think that's the reason for the oscillation.

I'm a fanatic for a true wheel, and I see that same effect. Some tires are "truly awful". Yuk-yuk.

Bob

[voicecoils]

Your wheel can be perfectly true, but bike tires are rarely, if ever, perfect. Honestly, I think that's the reason for the oscillation.

I'm a fanatic for a true wheel, and I see that same effect. Some tires are "truly awful". Yuk-yuk.

Bob

Tires wobbles are a good point. These ones are actually pretty nice but they're a bit piggy weight wise. I'm looking to move to some Schwalbe Marathon tires at some point soon, thinner, lighter and more puncture resistant. I can use very lightweight tubes in them then too, as they are so tough.

[voicecoils]

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All the ebike bits have been carefully removed and put away. It's back to a single source of power for now, ME!

Most of my ebike plans will be on hold till the first week in December, then I'll get back to it. Then I will have 3 months before Uni starts up again to finish the bikes and do some riding

While the bike is back to just a bike I've got a short list of things I want to work on:

- adjust both brakes for shorter pull and better modulation
- centre my chainring so the chain has no 'tight spots' in the revolution
- get my Shimano Alfine internal gear hub looked at / adjusted / serviced to try to improve shifting smoothness
- change over to Schwalbe Marathon tyres.

I'm hoping by December a solution to the Bafang gear stripping is found, and metal or composite replacements will be available to 'drop in', without a major increase in noise.

[voicecoils]

Update.

Ebike bits are back on the bike. 'heavy metal bafang' testing begins. Direct from keywin I've got three metal gears installed in my bafang hubmotor to avoid peanut buttering of nylon gears.

Went for a quick blast with 80-85v of lifepo4 in my backpack. Set the current limit to 22A. Speed still tops out around 48kph. Motor pulls very nicely especially at the end of the throttle twist. Sounds like a power drill and must be reasonably noticeable on quiet streets. This is perhaps a bit of an issue. A bit 'clattery' sounding when it freewheels, not sure about why, perhaps the freewheel mechanism or the metal gears.

I went up a few hills with minimal human effort without problems. Motor casing was warm but not hot. I didn't sustain 1.5kW+ for any considerable time as I doubt the motor has the copper mass to handle it and the phase wires are TINY.

I cut the testing short after 2-3km as the controller was bouncing around in the bag and I wanted to come back make sure it was mounted securely before any more riding.

heavy_metal_bafang-backpack.jpg

new tyres feel great and along with thinner tubes has trimmed some fat off the bike and it's rotating mass to boot :-)

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Other issues from my previous post:

+ 1.5" Schwalbe Marathon tyres are now on the bike.
+ brakes have been adjusted
+ chainring is centered

- alfine hub has not been serviced yet
- batterys are not in a box in the main frame triangle...yet!

[Mark_A_W]

Well done.

When will it be ready for battle then? Duct tape works as a battery box!


And about the noise, try one metal gear instead of 3.

How does the bike handle?

[Mark_A_W]

Oh, and is that 48kmh with or without pedalling?

And what is the no load speed of the motor?

[voicecoils]

48kph on reasonably level ground, no pedaling. I need a longer stretch to see what the full runout is. I forgot to press 'start' on my bike GPS so I didn't have downloadable data for my short ride.

No load is 64kph hot off the charger IIRC at 72v nominal.

Yes, once more properly tested I'll step down to 2 nylon 1 metal and see how that holds up. The current bearings may be part of the increased noise. As the gear faces wear they may quiet down too.

A few things I want to test are:

* WOT from a complete stop (with and without pedaling, 36v and 72v nominal)
* hills of varying lengths and gradients (variables as above)

Phase wires are very thin may not handle extended 1.5kW+ power levels. Then there's the thermal issues for the windings and hall sensors. I don't have a method of measuring the internal temperature to determine when/if meltdown might occur. I certainly want to avoid complete motor destruction.

Handling actually feels fine but without the batteries in the triangle it's a moot point so far. Until I'm battling traffic, winding my way around cars, and generally hammering along in good and bad weather I won't know how problematic a front hubmotor may be.

I do know that the bike feels like a jackhammer when it hits rough roads at higher speeds though :O I don't think I'll be curb jumping, but fortunately I rarely need to.

I do need to sort out a battery box soon, either take you up on your offer Mark if it still stands, sew something soft together, or try my hand at a ally box myself.

Cheers!

[voicecoils]

The bike has another 30km's on it now, still with batteries in the backpack. At 72v nominal it can hold 45kph or so through bends and very gentle inclines with no human input.

For my particular commute I think 60v nominal would be the sweet spot since I personally *DO* wish to pedal. Not pedaling feels awkward as does pedaling in too easy a gear.

Kept it pinned WOT down a long hill and I could feel it continued to assist over 60kph, just. That was a tribrid power system: legs, gravity, hubmotor and as far as power output I probably would have been legal

I don't need to go 60kph often and would not want to without suspension.

I need to do more testing but my inclination is the following:

0v - 100/0 split
36v - 70/30 split
48v - 50/50 split
60v - 30/70 split (untested)
72v - 20/80 split

the splits indicate percentage human effort / hubmotor assist. They do not correspond directly to respective power outputs. In otherwords, at 48v for example I would arrive at work half as exhausted as I would otherwise arrive with a pedal-only bicycle.

[recumbent]

at 48v for example I would arrive at work half as exhausted as I would otherwise arrive with a pedal-only bicycle.

I don't get it, perhaps you have very steep hills? I can ride my 48 volt bike for two hours and don't get tired at all, and i'm outa shape.

You've been working on this bike for half a year and still haven't mounted your batteries yet.

Took me only one afternoon to complete my bike conversion from bare bike to roadworthy Ebike. This includes complete dependability for 5,000 km's.

It seems to me (and many others i'm sure) that building the bike is more important than anything. Which is fine ofcourse, i just hope some folks don't get the idea it's a long and difficult ordeal, because it's not, it's an easy one afternoon build if your prepared.

Now mount those batteries Mr. Red Ridgid, and show us that you can actually complete a project.

[Russell]

I don't get it, perhaps you have very steep hills? I can ride my 48 volt bike for two hours and don't get tired at all, and i'm outa shape.

A bit off-topic but I recall returning from a bike ride once (non-powered) all sweaty and tired and someone said to me "you sweat when you ride a bike?". I wasn't going to argue the point at the time but I thought it was kinda funny like saying "you sweat when you exercise?". The point being you determine how much effort you put into the activity so even if you have a big honkin' motor on your bike you can still choose to input a power level which would put you at your red zone...or barely raise your pulse.



-R

[voicecoils]

You've been working on this bike for half a year and still haven't mounted your batteries yet.

Took me only one afternoon to complete my bike conversion from bare bike to roadworthy Ebike. This includes complete dependability for 5,000 km's.

It seems to me (and many others i'm sure) that building the bike is more important than anything.

I'm not out to prove anything to the E-S community. I have my build log which people can follow or ignore. I post questions, post useful information, and help others where I can and feel qualified.

According to your profile, you've gone for the two arguably best kits out there in terms of quality: Heinzmann and Bionx. I've gone a different route and sourced parts individually from all over the world. I'm not supprised your kits were plug and play and just worked. That's great

I've had a number of holds and setbacks such as the nylon gear saga and a 3 month wait for batteries. Other kits, such as ebike.ca's eZee kit are probably also a great setup to get going in one afternoon.

My time and tools are limited. My end goal for this bike is a reliable commuter. I'm not there yet.

Can't help ya'll if you're impatient to see the end result