Brushless Geared hubmotors: BIG list & details

[voicecoils]

Oh yeah, just so you know:

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?products_id=776&osCsid=4741caf21acfa1b78e1ea62b107cf94c

It certainly looks like a Bafang, but the specs don't seem to match up with any motor on their website.

Cool. Does look like it that's for sure. However, who knows how many may use the same case? The price seems fair too, though that controller probably is just 200w, it looks piss weak!

[docnjoj]

If it is Bafang, U dont want to put too much more volts/amps into it until the gear situation is resolved!
otherDoc

[marks]

Oh yeah, just so you know:

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?products_id=776&osCsid=4741caf21acfa1b78e1ea62b107cf94c

It certainly looks like a Bafang, but the specs don't seem to match up with any motor on their website.

I've checked with them and they say it's not geared internally, I don't know about the brand (it didn't have one).

Where can I get a bafang in Australia?

[voicecoils]

Oh yeah, just so you know:

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?products_id=776&osCsid=4741caf21acfa1b78e1ea62b107cf94c

It certainly looks like a Bafang, but the specs don't seem to match up with any motor on their website.

I've checked with them and they say it's not geared internally, I don't know about the brand (it didn't have one).

Where can I get a bafang in Australia?

weird. i don't know if i believe them. can they send a photo of the internals?

[marks]

I'll ask

[spike]

Oh yeah, just so you know:

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?products_id=776&osCsid=4741caf21acfa1b78e1ea62b107cf94c

It certainly looks like a Bafang, but the specs don't seem to match up with any motor on their website.

I've checked with them and they say it's not geared internally, I don't know about the brand (it didn't have one).

Where can I get a bafang in Australia?

Contact Keywin Ge at ecrazyman@gmail.com. He'll sell you the full kit but you will need to spoke it into a wheel yourself.

[TPA]

Anyone know about the P3 that solarbbq has now?

[Microbatman]

4. The fabled "1000W". I do not have one of these - supposedly a few are now in testing. This will be an ultra high speed motor, non-geared. Rumors from BMC of it being around 40 mph at 36V, unloaded. That would make it very similar to the Forsen (high speed, low torque, but the BMC will be lighter weight). I do not have the part number, but could guess it is something like 14110-3... We'll refer to these as V3 motors.

Morgan
Cycle9.com

Any update on the Direct Drive 1000W motor. I think that the market is hungary for an X5 alternative with less weight.

[voicecoils]

Any update on the Direct Drive 1000W motor. I think that the market is hungary for an X5 alternative with less weight.

The market (at least ebike enthusiasts) certainly is eager, I'd like to see a X5 power level hub motor with:
*quality casing & axles - enabling a weight reduction and increase in strength at the same time. Hollow Ti axle anyone?
*lots of copper, wound with high density.
*proper disc mounts and spacing
*proper freehub body to accept Shimano or SRAM modern splined cassettes.
*proper sealing
*oversized wiring
*passive cooling mechanism in the design.

But, this thread is about brushless geared hubmotors. The 1000W direct drive BMC is another matter (one I'll be looking for in other threads!)

[docnjoj]

Any update on the Direct Drive 1000W motor. I think that the market is hungary for an X5 alternative with less weight.

The market (at least ebike enthusiasts) certainly is eager, I'd like to see a X5 power level hub motor with:
*quality casing & axles - enabling a weight reduction and increase in strength at the same time. Hollow Ti axle anyone?
*lots of copper, wound with high density.
*proper disc mounts and spacing
*proper freehub body to accept Shimano or SRAM modern splined cassettes.
*proper sealing
*oversized wiring
*passive cooling mechanism in the design.

But, this thread is about brushless geared hubmotors. The 1000W direct drive BMC is another matter (one I'll be looking for in other threads!)

I think that titanium axle would cost more than the rest of the motor!
otherDoc

[himble]

Which is the better motor, the rear, geared ezee on ebikes.ca or the 600w rear geared V2 BMC? Both are priced about the same. The ezee is rated at 400w @36v.

[marshy]

Oh yeah, just so you know:

http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?products_id=776&osCsid=4741caf21acfa1b78e1ea62b107cf94c

It certainly looks like a Bafang, but the specs don't seem to match up with any motor on their website.

I've checked with them and they say it's not geared internally, I don't know about the brand (it didn't have one).

Where can I get a bafang in Australia?

I understand Brett White's (solarbbq) P4 (http://www.ebike.biz/P4.htm) is a Bafang (possibly an OEM version). I'm currently waiting for a front wheel kit (spoked into 700c).

[OneWayTraffic]

Does anyone know which make this one is?
http://www.electricbikes.co.nz/content/view/22/65/

I'm in Aus, and I suppose I could order it from NZ, but as I can't seem to pick which brand/make it is, I am struggling to find it. I know it's 285w instead of 200w!

I'm fairly sure that the battery is a Phylion. Same as Ezee use apparently.

http://www.evshop.co.kr/item.php?it_id=460

[Mark_A_W]

Any update on the Direct Drive 1000W motor. I think that the market is hungary for an X5 alternative with less weight.

The market (at least ebike enthusiasts) certainly is eager, I'd like to see a X5 power level hub motor with:
*quality casing & axles - enabling a weight reduction and increase in strength at the same time. Hollow Ti axle anyone?
*lots of copper, wound with high density.
*proper disc mounts and spacing
*proper freehub body to accept Shimano or SRAM modern splined cassettes.
*proper sealing
*oversized wiring
*passive cooling mechanism in the design.

But, this thread is about brushless geared hubmotors. The 1000W direct drive BMC is another matter (one I'll be looking for in other threads!)

Yes, I want all of the above, in a geared hub with gears that won't fail.

You missed:
* Fits in 135mm (with a 9 speed cassette and standard spaced disc brake).


And, hardened steel is the best material for the axle. Steel is seriously an amazing material, everyone overlooks it as it's common (like in the movie Blade, with the Titanium sword....titanium is as stupid a material for as sword as aluminium).

[wanders]

This seems to be the thread to ask these questions:

1) Does the Bafang SWXH motor have Neodymium ("rare earth") magnets?

2) Has anyone ever rewound a Bafang motor before (with larger diameter wire and fewer turns) for more speed and better current capacity?

After reading a guide to rewinding RC brushless motors recently, I believe that the Bafang, with metal gear(s), a rewound stator and a serious controller, might be a pretty good candidate for rewinding, resulting in a better stealth solution. The quality of the winding and phase wires (and the gears, of course) in the Bafang looks suspect to me.

[Reid Welch]

Gears: planetary gears are lossy compared against direct drive.

Plastic gears have been made since 1920, at least.
These were popular aftermarket replacements for the generally-noisy Model T's helical-cut half-speed gear
for the valve operation. It ran from a vanadium steel gear pressed and keyed to the crankshaft, and was usually failsafe, though sometimes the spokes of the cast iron timing gear would break (very rarely).

Customers who wanted silence purchased aftermarket gears made not of metal, but of linen cloth composite: linen, the strongest fabric, laminated, dozens of layers, in phenolic resin. These ran dead quiet and were strong,
IF made by a reputable manufacturer. I had but never used a Westinghouse brand Ford timing gear.
It was a beautiful thing and would have served well.

---
got in to grab the exact url becuase I'm too ignorant to do it otherwise.
NO edits whatsoever. submit, see your post, it says. otay.

Now, today we have super-tough plastics suitable for the extreme punishment of direct-crank driven ICE engines.

For instance, the Honda generators use a molded, not laminated, tough plastic that does not soften in hot, hot engine oil.
Nylon, if that's what these geared motors use, is relatively soft and gets very soft when heated at all.

By actual timed report (engine hour meter), one RV user of a Honda EU2000 got fully 10,000 hours service from his plastic timing gear.
I cannot overemphasize how much more severe this service is, than a three-gear planetary, smooth rotation motor:

the IC engine using a direct drive timing gear slams and whams the gear teeth with every explosive impulse.
Yet, today, there ARE plastic composite gears that WOULD last nearly forever in a geared hub motor.

Are the Chinese manufacturers green with inexperience? Laminated timing gears of old often ran for tens of thousands of miles, or for decades, without failure. And their service life was like, a hundred times rougher than that seen by three-gear planetary smooth rotation low power electric motors.

"Nylon", if that's what they are all using, is Three Stooges material for this sort of duty;
it may work for a long time; then again: shock and lugging and over-powering and heat may ruin them.

IMO, there is no desirable reason to have a steel planet gear in one of these motors: sure, it will work,
but why? It is not 1908 anymore and noise of steel spur gears is often considerable, and soft steel on soft steel, if not run in oil, may no wear well at all. Grease is a poor lubricant for fast running gears,
but is often the only lubricant that'll stay put.

Better gears are in our future. They will be plastic. Find out what Honda uses and use that exact brand of plastic, and test the material til failure.

My opinions,
r.

__________

url grab, not an edit.

[Mark_A_W]

"Gears: planetary gears are lossy compared against direct drive."

You are kidding me right?


Direct Drive motors are bogged down in inefficient low RPMs for ~4x longer than Geared motors.


A Bafang on 48v 10A will accelerate as hard as my big DD motor on 60v 30A with 1/4 the power used...we just tested them. I have more top end, but the bafang is amazing for such a small lightweight motor. My motor doesn't light up till ~25kmh, then it pulls till ~45kmh. The bafang pulls from standstill till about 40kmh.


Yes there is a RPM, which if you just *sat* there forever, the DD motor is more efficient. But in the real world we stop and start.

[Reid Welch]

"Gears: planetary gears are lossy compared against direct drive."

You are kidding me right?

No. Learn more about gears and their inherent losses.
I spoke of planetary spur gearing: the most inefficient, nearly, of all gears other than bevel gears.

Direct Drive motors are bogged down in inefficient low RPMs for ~4x longer than Geared motors.

Absolutely true; no argument here.

A Bafang on 48v 10A will accelerate as hard as my big DD motor on 60v 30A with 1/4 the power used...we just tested them. I have more top end, but the bafang is amazing for such a small lightweight motor. My motor doesn't light up till ~25kmh, then it pulls till ~45kmh. The bafang pulls from standstill till about 40kmh.

Yes, because the tiny motor itself is spinning at a high and efficient rpm, as you well know.

Yes there is a RPM, which if you just *sat* there forever, the DD motor is more efficient. But in the real world we stop and start.

In my real world I drive on level ground at 20mph,
often without stops, for many miles at a time (28 miles the other night). IF I were going cross country,
a direct drive motor would beat your geared hub motor for electrical and =mechanical= efficiency.

That said, I am a big, big fan of geared hub motors. That's why I bought one myself: an eZee.
It pulls from a standing start, it is quiet, it is efficient enough at rated speed to draw only 20Wh/m,
which is probably pretty close to, but not fully equal to that of a direct drive motor of ideal winding characteristic for the speed and load it works at, at steady, high, road speed..

Most of my reply is in red font today because I just had a tooth pulled twenty minutes ago.
I'm bleedin', I tell you, bleeding! Ha ha! I'm a very EFFICIENT bleeder.

And boy, do I know planetary transmissions, from Boston pencil sharpeners to the Model T and other early auto transmissions.

Geared hub motors are the bees knees for me: small, efficent enough, torquey...
...are we in any disagreement, other than for your first, aggressively rude statement?

I love you just the same and will make you a "friend" in my profile list of effers.

Kind regards,
yr pal,
Reid

[Mark_A_W]

"Gears: planetary gears are lossy compared against direct drive."

You are kidding me right?

[color=#FF0000]No. Learn more about gears and their inherent losses.
I spoke of planetary spur gearing: the most inefficient, nearly, of all gears other than bevel gears.

I am a Mechanical Engineer Reid. I know a reasonable amount about gears.

[Reid Welch]

Mark is now a "friend" because I have never met an Aussie I could not like.
They rule and they are all plain, honest speakers. Kudos for the man.

I remember Dom Harvey, no longer active here, and Aussie Jester, and others:
all first class blokes who would give you their last bottle of beer along with a smile.
Wonderful people, Australians.
Too bad most of them come from former, criminal stockades

Yr pal, Puck...rhymes with....

[Reid Welch]

I am a Mechanical Engineer Reid. I know a reasonable amount about gears.

Then prove it, mate, with words and or piccies? You can get almost any data in a trice from the WWW.

Anyway, I wuv you (becuase I have never pissed off an Australian before; I thought they were all bomb proof?
Look at what they did for the Allied Forces during the last world war?
Without Oz, we'd all be goose-stepping with Dorothy, ja!


)the pain pills are working. can you tell? off for a nappie; see your discussion rebuttal in twelve hours or so(

Cheers and fun,
Epicycloidal Reid, who never finished high school, but who did get six Vicodin from the kindly dentist.

[Reid Welch]

Google Book Search is such a help in learning about past and present manufacturing techniques.
The older books are in the public domain, and so, can be quoted or copied.
Here is the very best (then and probably now) SILENT gear material, which I referenced to above.
It's infinitely tougher than "nylon", though today specialized plastics, moldable like nylon, make the machined laminated cloth gear unnecessarily costly, therefore obsolete. But for strength? This old problem was long ago solved. From: http://tinyurl.com/q2n9s8

840. Bakelite Micarta-D Gears and Pinions. - T. D. Lynch and R. E. Talley. (Elect. J. 13. pp. 368-371, Aug., 1916.)—Noise represents in itself a loss of power, but the chief reason for giving it serious consideration is that it is necessarily associated with vibration. Direct loss of energy due to vibration is of particular importance at high speeds. By eliminating noise, the wear and tear on machinery is reduced and the efficiency of workers is increased. A suitable non-metallic gear material must have sufficient strength to keep the face width reasonably narrow ; it must be hard enough, to wear well, and must not shrink or swell. Metallic reinforcement should be unnecessary, so that two muting gears can be made of equal width to obtain uniform wear. A product of heavy duck bonded with bakelite by heating under very high pressure goes by the trade name of Bakelite Micarta-D. This material is as strong as cast iron ; it is proof against oil, atmosphere, and vermin, and, unless conditions arc unusually severe,, it can be used without bush or flange. The teeth need never be shrouded, and the width of the gear is determined only by the power to be transmitted. The physical properties of this material are:— Tensile strength, parallel to laminations, 10,000 Ibs. per sq. in.; compression strength perpendicular/parallel to laminations, 35,000/17,000 Ibs. per sq. in. ; transverse strength, max. fibre stress perpendicular or parallel to laminations, 17,000 Ibs. per sq. in. ; coefficient of expansion (per in. per 1 deg. C., 0-00002 in. parallel to, and 0-000085 in. perpendicular to laminations ; sp. gr., 1-4; weight per cub. in., 005 Ib.; shrinkage practically zero" up to 100° C. ; oil absorption practically zero ; water absorption (50 hrs. immersion at 21° C.), 0-25 to 2 % by weight, depending on relative amount of edge exposed. The same tools may be used as for steel when cutting teeth, but the cutting speed may be increased 25 % and the feed 50 % ; turning may be done at 400 to 500 ft. per min. with a tool of 30° cutting angle and 10° clearance. Metal end- plates should be used on heavy Micarta-D gears, and always when the pitch diam. exceeds 4 times the face width. The thickness of the end-plates is governed by the torque at the hub. With light torque the chief function of the end-plates is to act as washers, and J in. to J in. thickness is sufficient. With heavy torque the end-plates must strengthen the keyway, and should be J in. to | in. thick, or even be in the form of flanged bushings. Notes on design and applications of these gears are given in the original. Spur, bevel, spiral, and helical gears can be made from Micarta-D. In order that they may mesh properly with metal gears, both must be cut true, lined up accurately, and properly spaced between centres. The back-lash allowance should be double that usual for steel. Free lubrication with oil or grease is necessary. Generally Micarta-D gears can be substituted for steel (untreated), cast-iron, or bronze gears, and with the same dimensions as the metal gears which they are to replace ; they will outlast raw hide and other non-metallic gear materials, and, in some services, will outlast cast iron.

I hope this was of general interest.
The old tech stuff was generally extremely well thought out by men of long and trained experience:
it was the golden era of the Mechanical Age.

______________________

Two corrections at least, are in order:

THANK YOU, Mark, for making me think, even under sedation.

Secondly, the timing gear referenced is not in this thread. I must fetch a link, or just re-describe the gear:
It was a beautiful thing, Westinghouse branded, molded and patent-dated in the face of the gear
and the phenolic-bonded laminations, all hand-laid, many, many layers of cloth, all saturated with thermosetting phenolic resin.
It was a glossy, brown, wonder of workmanship, as was the die it was pressure-cast in, and then the machining of the teeth, beautifully done.
It was a premium product for the demanding Fordist, the man tired of the whine and clatter of the stock, cast iron, half-speed gear.

These things had to be incredibly strong and fatigue resistant, to resist the un-damped, extremely nasty,
hammer-like harmonic vibrations of the slender four-throw Ford crank. Other makers, including Mercedes Benz, used such silent gears in the 20s and 30s, if in lieu of "silent" timing gear chains, which, long term, proved a better method overall.

[Reid Welch]

I learn as I think. I am no engineer but I tremendously respect engineers and others here, like fechter and Bob Mc Cree (I name them only because they are virtual charter members.

=======

About planetary gearing: I was in error. There is nothing inefficient in a well-made three gear reduction box.

The plastic gears can all deform a bit and so, each tooth can shoulder its share of the load.
Efficiency should range (reading old books now) above 95%.

The accuracy of the pinion placement (same for all three gears relative to the sun gear) and smoothness of the mating parts, and bearings: all the details of fine machine work; count for more than perhaps any other aspect of a geared hub motor.

That, plus gears which are heat resistant and tough and fatigue resistant.

----
my intuitively derived opinions... I'm full of them,

Reid

[GTA1]

There is no doubt that technically, very light, strong, and high quality gear sets can be made of a variety of materials --- not just Nylon molded gears.

There are ways to reinforce plastic or resin, use composites or ceramics combine it with metal facings, etc. to get high tech gears that are almost better than metal in every way.

The real question is what is the art of the possible coming out of Chinese manufacturers.

Most of the Chinese Manufacturers are decades away from the point where they have the ability, scale, and scope to be able to market, service, and support products that are well made, well, supported, and provided with reasonable spares and maintenance over a reasonable time: i.e. 7 years.

The best of the Chinese vehicle manufactuers (car and motorcycle) are capable of that now inside China and in a few select markets.

However, China also have hundreds, perhaps tens of thousands, of other small shops, businesses, etc. who can't do that.

What they CAN do is to put together a product that looks good on the surface, works for a while, and sell it for what appear to be a cut rate price.

The dominance of these cut rate firms, in turn, undercut the "name brands" who do provide good engineering, customer service, etc. from charging too high a premium.

Thousands of people who are willing to import the untried products into the major US and other markets from cut rate firms and new entrants, in turn, frustrate the efforts of name brands in building a "name", and getting enough of a premium to support after sales and support, and R&D into products that really work.

What it means for us (the buyers) is the market is filled with mediocre products that by and large don't stand the test of time, and do not gain the benefits of having manufacturers and distributors that are in the game for the long haul.

The exceptions are brands based in the US etc. like Bionx that source their own components, insist on strict quality controls, and of course, charge sky high prices.

Anyone got any ideas as to how to move this forward?

[grandmasterE]

Does anyone have any experience with the BMC 1000W hubmotor yet? If so, give up the details (speeds, acceleration, batteries, and controller)

E.