canadian tire store elect bikes.

GTA1 wrote:
I am a bit bemused at the comments on here.
I am a bit bemused at the comments on here by GTA1. He jumps on this forum, makes a long post designed to pass himself off as an expert in many areas, Puts all Lithium batteries in the class of the "dangerous" RC Lipos, and seems to think only SLA is good for ebikes.

Like many on this forum, I have over a dozen SLA batteries in the garage, many are still useable, none are in use. This is because they are heavy, require special recharging attention, sag under use, and don't deliver their full AH rating. On the other hand, I purchased two 20 pound 48V 20AH duct tape LIFEPO4 batteries about 1 1/2 years ago. I use them in parallel and by themselves, depending on the rig I want to ride. They still operate as new and I expect at least a couple more years of service from them.

Anyone looking for guidance on this forum shoud ignore anything written by GTA1, IMO. I am more of a hobbyist, but read and listen to what real peolple, such as Dogman, both a hobbyist and a commuter, have to say about ebikes in general and batteries more specifically.
 
http://www.internationalbatteryinc.com/pdf/MSDS_IB-FHE.pdf

Product name: Li-Ion Cells or Battery Pack
Product description: Lithium Iron Phosphate Chemistry

Reactivity: When a battery is exposed to high temperatures, crushes, deformation, and external short circuit may result in venting harmful gases and volatile organics. In the event of rupture, hydrogen fluoride gas is produced in reaction with water.

The transport of rechargeable lithium-ion batteries is regulated by various bodies (IATA, IMO, ADR, US-DOT) that follow the United Nations “Recommendation on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, Model regulations, 13th Revised edition-2003-Ref. STSG/AC.10/1 Rev. 13”. International Battery, Inc. products are assigned to UN3090 and are restricted by this regulation.


http://www.centuryvallen.com/Site_Files/Site_Graphics/MSDSpdf/2155%20ENGLISH.pdf

WARNING: Battery can explode or leak and cause burns if installed backwards, disassembled, charged, or exposed to water, fire or high
temperature.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_29_18/ai_n6280925/?tag=content;col1

Lithium Battery Fire Could Burn Through a Cargo Hold
Air Safety Week , July 26, 2004

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/04-26.pdf

Flammability Assessment of Bulk-Packed, Nonrechargeable Lithium Primary Batteries in Transport Category Aircraft



Lithium Batteries, all flavors, are subject to Federal and Internal Law:

In general, the transportation of primary lithium cells and batteries is regulated by the International Civil Aviation Organization, International
Air Transport Association, International Maritime Dangerous Goods Code and the US Department of Transportation. The batteries must meet
the following criteria for shipment:
• For air shipments, meet the requirements listed in Special Provision A45 of the International Air Transport Association Dangerous
Goods Regulations.
• Meet the requirements for the US Department of Transportation listed in 49 CFR 173.185.
• With limited exceptions, the transport of primary lithium batteries is prohibited aboard passenger aircraft. Refer to August 9th, 2007
Federal Register (Hazardous Materials; Transportation of Lithium Batteries) for additional rules that are effective on January 1,
2008.

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/173-185-lithium-batteries-and-cells-19942407
 
We are all aware that some regulations have included all flavors of Lithium batteries. There are many LiFePO4 batteries in use by members of this forum. Outside of a few burns due to direct external shorts, has anyone had an explosion or fire either spontaneously or as the result of an accident or abuse involving LiFePO4?
 
Posting irrelevant links isn't going to help, no matter how many of them you post. For example, you apparently aren't aware that primary batteries aren't used on e-bikes because we generally prefer to use rechargeable cells.

Here's a hint: check out LiFePO4 on Wikipedia, specifically the safety section. Mmmkay?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifepo4
 
If you want to use Lithium.... it is entirely up to you. Especially if you need it.

There can be just as happy customers of old fashioned technology like Lead Acid, in all its different flavors.

Are posters suggesting that information on the advantages of lead acid technology is not welcome on this forum?

If so, great.... I will post the knowhow elsewhere.
 
The day Canadian Tire offers technological value for my dollar, pigs will fly.

A truly durable, practical, serviceable e-bike will never be seen on their shelves.

Canadian Tire has "evolved" into a retail balance sheet that is a sad hybrid of Chinese dollar-store garbage, Nascar themed stick-on automotive masturbation devices, and horrible service.
 
The disadvantages of Lead Acid are clear - weight, inability to charge / discharge as quickly (voltage sag), etc.

I am really intrigued by the technologies being applied to enhance lead acid --- from AGM to using supercapacitors or even hydraulic energy storage.

BTW, above information from FAA applies to all lithium batteries.

If you want to travel with your Lithium battery pack equipped bike or battery packs on an aircraft (and probably as baggage on buses, trains, etc.... ) The rules are quite simple:

Anything over 300 watt hours (smaller than any e bike battery except those for lighting only)... is not allowed. Period. No distinction between primary, rechargable, different chemistries, etc.

Whoever did the wikipedia entry apparently did not run their propaganda through the FAA.

See:

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/April08Meeting/webster-0408-Transportoflithiumbatteries.pdf


SLAs on the other hand.... can be carried on aircraft.
 
GTA1 said:
Anything over 300 watt hours (smaller than any e bike battery except those for lighting only)... is not allowed. Period. No distinction between primary, rechargable, different chemistries, etc.

Whoever did the wikipedia entry apparently did not run their propaganda through the FAA.

You dare question the mighty Wikipedia? You can carry on (2) 30V 10AH lithium electric bike batteries, and if you had a little dinky electric bike that fit in your carry-on luggage, it could have a 30V 10AH battery installed.

And you can bring as many toolpack batteries as you please.

http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html
 
http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/Lithium-ion_battery_04112006.pdf
 
Everything in this world is dangerous if you don't know how to use it or your stupid about how you use it. I could choke on the apple I am eating now. I find it funny how people don't mind sloshing gallons of explosive/toxic/flammable liquid into there cars and have it pumped around under high pressure and set on fire. But battery's have to be almost eatable before people think they are safe.

Coming from Australia I find also find it amusing how every product in the US has 100s of warning labels on it. Everything even there cars.

WARNING do not drink from the petrol tank.
WARNING do not place mouth over exhaust .
WARNING do not lick the cigar lighter.

As for the SLA battery's .I am all for people having a comment on the forum about them. Just seemed as if the comments made by GTA1 were contradictory to what most of know the traits of SLA are . I didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

Kurt.
 
Kurt,

Much of the things said about Lead Acid technology is, um, prejudiced.

While it is far from ideal, there is a lot of mileage in improving lead acid technology --- and for either living with / working around their current limitations ---- which include shorter range and lower energy density per unit weight and volume.

Since you are in Australia - why don't you help us by checking out this:

http://www.csiro.au/science/Ultra-Battery.html

Call them up, get some facts on the table.

My understanding is that it is an amazing technology.

The UltraBattery is a hybrid energy storage device that integrates a supercapacitor with a lead acid battery in one unit cell.

This unique design harnesses the best of both technologies to produce a battery that can provide high power discharge and charge with a long, low-cost life.

Developed by CSIRO Energy Technology as part of the Energy Transformed Flagship research program, the UltraBattery has applications for use in hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) with further research aimed at resolving issues of intermittency in capturing energy produced from renewable sources.
Powering low emission transport

Integrating a conventional car engine with a battery powered electric motor means HEV technology achieves the dual environmental benefit of reducing both greenhouse gas emissions and fossil fuel consumption from transport.
This unique design harnesses the best of both supercapacitor and lead acid battery technologies to produce a battery that can provide high power discharge and charge with a long, low-cost life.

The UltraBattery offers a number of advantages over conventional car batteries:

*
cycle life is four times longer
*
50 per cent more power than lead acid batteries counterparts
*
approximately 70 per cent less expensive than current HEV battery systems
*
faster charge and discharge rates.

Recent testing undertaken in the United Kingdom has further proved the UltraBattery’s capabilities with a HEV surpassing 100 000 miles under strict and challenging conditions, using the power of the advanced battery system.



Admittedly, there will a few years (3 or 4 by my guess) before this technology see the light of general availability.

In the mean time, it is my understanding that the vast majority of electric bikes in China are running off old fashioned Lead Acid batteries.

China has, right now, the largest population of electric bikes (something like 15 million is the guess) in the world.

They have the critical mass to really change the game.


While Lithium (all flavors) are in intriguing technology, for the reasons I discussed: (hazards, availability of lithium, cost, environmental issues, etc.) it will be a player, but a minor niche player.

There will always be hobbyists who will pay $500 or $1,000 for a lithium battery. But the majority of the market will be something else: Lead Acid, "ultrabattery", Nickel Metal Hydride, etc.

Lithium as a technology just doesn't scale if you start thinking of 100 million cyclists (in China alone) using it.


Perhaps that will open the minds of some of the people who read this forum.
 
gogo said:
GTA1 said:
And you can bring as many toolpack batteries as you please.
http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html


Try boarding the aircraft with 2 suitcases and carry on full of "toolpack batteries.

This kind of attitude is what gives regulators nightmares.

At the time the latest (2008) regulations were written, there are very few Lithium based toolpack batteries.

Now they are widespread.

What you are demonstrating is that passengers like you are fundamentally irresponsible, and will break the spirit of the rules even if it endangers the safety of many others.

Just watch --- behavior like this is going to cause the FAA (and other governments and agencies like IATA) to sharply tighten the rules and perhaps, even banning the currently allowed amount of lithium batteries on aircraft.

At this rate, lithium will join Mercury as a banned substance eventually --- a loss for all of us because some may be irresponsible or have ulterior motives.


Not that I am suggesting that you are a terrorist, but clearly, lithium batteries in the quantities you are talking about could be used with a hidden ignition device inside a battery pack to bring down a plane.
 
nutsandvolts said:
Lithium is now on Schwinn bikes, and I can buy the batteries just down the road at Canadian Tire. It is not a niche for hobbyists, not in North America. China is a different market.


You are free to buy it. It is a legal product.

I, myself, will continue development work with Lead Acid technology..... if I can only get a hold of the ultrabattery supercapacitors and technology....

It is a free country. (More or less...)

You do what you want, I will do what I want.
 
GTA1 I encourage you to start a thread in the battery technology forum about the merits of different chemistries. Some good and useful information has been exchanged in this thread and there is enough more that it warrants its own thread.
 
GTA1 said:
gogo said:
GTA1 said:
And you can bring as many toolpack batteries as you please.
http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html


Try boarding the aircraft with 2 suitcases and carry on full of "toolpack batteries.

This kind of attitude is what gives regulators nightmares.

At the time the latest (2008) regulations were written, there are very few Lithium based toolpack batteries.

Now they are widespread.

What you are demonstrating is that passengers like you are fundamentally irresponsible, and will break the spirit of the rules even if it endangers the safety of many others.

Just watch --- behavior like this is going to cause the FAA (and other governments and agencies like IATA) to sharply tighten the rules and perhaps, even banning the currently allowed amount of lithium batteries on aircraft.

At this rate, lithium will join Mercury as a banned substance eventually --- a loss for all of us because some may be irresponsible or have ulterior motives.


Not that I am suggesting that you are a terrorist, but clearly, lithium batteries in the quantities you are talking about could be used with a hidden ignition device inside a battery pack to bring down a plane.

:lol: :lol: :lol: That's completely ridiculous. Just because the FAA fails to recognize that safe Lithium chemistries exist doesn't mean that they don't exist. I'm not a battery salesman, and I wasn't planning on flying anywhere with my e-bike anyway. :roll: As if the TSA would let me get on a plane with a large number of electrically connected mystery cylinders in my carry-on.

Nobody was upset that you were promoting lead-acid batteries. We were just trying to educate you about the fact that not all lithium is the same. Lithium cobalt cells (like those found in laptops, cellphones, and RC packs) are FAR more dangerous than other, MUCH more stable, lithium chemistries, like lithium manganese spinel or lithium iron phosphate (found in toolpacks and most e-bike packs). The less stable chemistry is used in cellphones, laptops and RC devices because the lithium cobalt cells' energy density is much higher. But tool and ebike builders recognize that larger packs are more dangerous so they tend to use the safer chemistries.

Since this discussion is hijacking a thread which was supposed to be about Canadian Tire e-bikes, I won't respond again here. If you would like to continue the discussion, please open a new thread in the battery section.
 
There is one problem with lithium. If everyone decided to go green and use lithium, would there be enough for everyone? From what I have seen not even close.

Well fromn what I gather the same goes with lead.

If every one in china wanted a fridge based on today’s tech it can’t happen either.

Eestor patanet is important as this research has potential to provide the world with a viable kick arse energy storage unit with common materials.

Lead acid has plenty of potential left with some development. Just need a lead alloy made lighter and the cell voltage is fine, could be improved upon. Water based electrolyte is too long in the tooth.

Lead isn’t what miners sought for and is more a by-product with some very useful purposes. Putting it into plastic packs or rolls of solder and recycling it has better implications environmentally than just dumping it as by-product.. As long as manufacturing with lead and recycling lead practices are sound, using lead is a good thing. I am concerned with people loosing there tackle when fishing with it.
 
Anyone knows if Schwinn engineers their own bikes, or if they just relabeled generic ebikes?
I understand Schwinn used to be a respectable bike brand, but nor the local bike stores here sneer when hearing the name.

nutsandvolts said:
Go ahead and use lead if you want. You're not going to convince most of us to give up on lithium.

As alternative to the Canadian Tire Schwinn, these Tailwind bikes look pretty interesting, my guess is that they cost a lot more though. My female friend is planning to buy the Schwinn Premise from Canadian Tire along with a spare lithium battery. I was going to build her a bike but just don't have time. These two Schwinn bikes look pretty decent: Tailwind and Premise. So I take back what I said about Canadian Tire electric bikes earlier. It is only very recently they started selling them with lithium batteries at Canadian Tire. And they are quite a bit different than the IZIPs that were the only ones available a short while ago. Hopefully they'll stock the Tailwind soon. And it's batteries. :mrgreen:

I couldn't find the little mongoose motocross electric bike in stock anywhere.
I guess those are selling out pretty quickly.

Schwinnelecticbikes is very conservative in estimating the power output of the human. A mere 75W. I hope I do more than t that. At least CA shows a couple of hundred Watts drop when I begin pedalling compared to the same speed and no pedal.
Schwinnelecticbikes said:
http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Technology/ElectronicComponents.aspx
Watt

A unit of work or power that is the product of voltage multiplied by amps.

28 volts X 6.43 amps = 180 watts

746 watts = 1 horsepower

A bicyclist setting a world speed record for 1 hour needs to maintain about 475 watts. The occasional recreational cyclist can maintain about 1/10th of a horsepower or 75 watts for 1 hour with bursts of 200 watts for a few minutes, more or less depending on the riders conditioning. The Schwinn Plug N’ Drive motor more than doubles the recreational cyclists input with 150 watts of continuous power and 250 watts of momentary power to help get the recreational cyclist through the tough parts of the ride.
 
317537 said:
There is one problem with lithium. If everyone decided to go green and use lithium, would there be enough for everyone? From what I have seen not even close.

Well fromn what I gather the same goes with lead.

There have been studies done on what are the national security ramifications if even a sizable percentage of motor vehicles in developed countries (say 10%) required Lithium batteries.

The net result is there is not enough to go around, and in the mean time, the 3 or 4 countries that control the world's supply (see link below) would be the new OPEC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Lead is far more plentiful and in no serious danger of running out.
 
Back
Top