Brammo Empulse

[Lock]

The batteries should be around $1000-$1100 for each kW brick or $6500 for the 6KW. Frame and motor for $3500? entirely do-able

Ya need to throw some overhead and profit and income taxes in there somewhere as well
tks
LoCk

[markcycle]

The batteries should be around $1000-$1100 for each kW brick or $6500 for the 6KW. Frame and motor for $3500? entirely do-able

Ya need to throw some overhead and profit and income taxes in there somewhere as well
tks
LoCk

not to mention insurance and marketing that helicopter fly over can't be cheap

[vanilla ice]

And is there any way to NOT buy it at best buy? I'd rather not.

[mwkeefer]

My mom send me this URL: http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs/au ... 008.4.5.19

About... you guessed it Brammo Empulse, considering my mom isn't really "up to date" as an antiques trader / RN but... even she is on the bandwagon with the prospect of these bikes...

Any more detail on the power source / system / energy density and motor type (AC Induction Right like the tesla?)?

My freaking mom, of all people in the world!

-Mike

[frodus]

its BLDC

[emotofreak]

The batteries should be around $1000-$1100 for each kW brick or $6500 for the 6KW. Frame and motor for $3500? entirely do-able

Um, frame and motor, maybe. That is a Perm PMC-150. Motor and controller will run you over $2000 alone. Frame maybe $500-$1000. But what about the rest? Wheels, suspensions, brakes, etc...

There is no way they are making money on this. I bet the quoted prices are just about the COGs on the bike.

[grindz145]

If the cali incentives are really that good the 6.0 might make a lot sense here for commuting.. So you guys don't think they can deliver it at the 10k? I figured the 60 miles "OR" 100mph thing meant that it would only do like 30miles at reasonable speeds. Like 30 miles at 50mph average in mixed freeway/street riding. Which could actually be fine for the average person..

What incentives are there in california besides the 10% federal incentive? You know, because I have some friends...

[emotofreak]

http://energycenter.org/index.php/incen ... te-project

You get $1500 from this plus the 10% Federal. So about $2500 off a $10,000 motorcycle.

If the cali incentives are really that good the 6.0 might make a lot sense here for commuting.. So you guys don't think they can deliver it at the 10k? I figured the 60 miles "OR" 100mph thing meant that it would only do like 30miles at reasonable speeds. Like 30 miles at 50mph average in mixed freeway/street riding. Which could actually be fine for the average person..

What incentives are there in california besides the 10% federal incentive? You know, because I have some friends...

[MitchJi]

Hi,

If the cali incentives are really that good the 6.0 might make a lot sense here for commuting.. So you guys don't think they can deliver it at the 10k? I figured the 60 miles "OR" 100mph thing meant that it would only do like 30miles at reasonable speeds. Like 30 miles at 50mph average in mixed freeway/street riding. Which could actually be fine for the average person..

What incentives are there in california besides the 10% federal incentive? You know, because I have some friends...

I think you would be better off with friends in Colorado .

[liveforphysics]

Whoa. The "fuel tank" is critically important for any bike with sportbike like geometery.

When you're cruising down the highway, your chest rests against the tank. When you're cornering, you slide your ass off the seat, and your knee drops down below the tank on the inside side, and hangs up above the tank on the outside side and you squeeze it tight.

The tank's shape is critical as a control feature on the bike.

Also, at least on my GSXR, the airbox does sit above the fuel storage part of the tank, and just has a thin cover of steel over it, with the fuel being stored lower in the tank.

[grindz145]

Whoa. The "fuel tank" is critically important for any bike with sportbike like geometery.

When you're cruising down the highway, your chest rests against the tank. When you're cornering, you slide your ass off the seat, and your knee drops down below the tank on the inside side, and hangs up above the tank on the outside side and you squeeze it tight.

The tank's shape is critical as a control feature on the bike.

Also, at least on my GSXR, the airbox does sit above the fuel storage part of the tank, and just has a thin cover of steel over it, with the fuel being stored lower in the tank.

Agreed, alot of the ICE bikes like the BMW G650s don't put the gas in the gas tank area anymore anyway, but they still have the feature there. It makes sense.

[vanilla ice]

On many late model sport bikes the "tank" that you see isn't even metal. Its a plastic cover and the real steel tank is tucked below it. Makes all the magnetic tank accessories not work. Probably a good feature for your wallet if your bike takes a slide down the road though! Got to be cheaper to replace a plastic cover than a tank.

Even on the dirt bikes they are begining to move stuff around. On the new 450 Yamaha they have the airbox in front of the gas section-
http://www.rex4yamaha.co.nz/images/YZ45 ... -side2.jpg
They do try to keep it looking normal from the outside though.

[recumpence]

There is no doubt this bike is beautiful! However, I am with you guys on the price-point issue. I have looked into this and I have found the production cost of a powerful 100 mph bike is well over $10k. I am desperately trying not to criticize. Heck, I LOVE this thing! However, I am not convinced they really can sell this thing for $10-$14k. I would safely make the statement that the lesser version should be around $16k to truely re realistic. Of course, I could be wrong. I would absolutely freak if they release this thing at the price-point they are quoting with the specs they are showing.

On a side note, I would not worry too much about Roehr being a serious contender. He is capable of building some cool bikes. But, he is a very small numbers manufacturer, kind of like me with my bicycles.

Matt

[Toshi]

Why are you guys assuming that Brammo can't source the components for cheaper given that they're assuming some degree of volume that none of us here (afaik) can boast of? Furthermore, they're projecting for mid-2011 delivery.

[recumpence]

The primary reasons (from my end) are;

#1 Personal experience in light EVs and the costs involved.

#2 Battery cost and availability.

#3 Motor development cost and/or adapting existing motors to do what they are looking to do.

#4 (I hate to say this), it is very rare, indeed, that a new release vehicle truely has the specs at the cost and delivery date innitially quoted. These quoted variables tend to creep up with time.

Matt

[beast775]

just watching the ad makes me want to buy one.im quite interested in the price of the components.the price does not make real sense to me adding up components.but i do like the bike,and hope they do very well.

[Lock]

I was told once... OK, years ago, that hub motors from China were $35 each when bought by the container-full...

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I tend to believe they will at least be close with the price. They are accepting pre-orders (link in quoted text below) with listed MSRP's (no deposit required until 90 days before delivery). If they raise their prices substantially the only thing they will have accomplished is pissing off a lot of potential customers.

Liquid cooling:
http://gas2.org/2010/07/26/brammo-unveils-the-empulse-a-true-electric-sportbike/#more-8923

Although news of this amazing new production sportbike has been making its way around the internet, Brammo chose to officially unveil the Empulse this past weekend at Laguna Seca, in conjunction with the MotoGP race and the FIM’s American ePower round. The first thing I noticed, apart from its tough, sexy styling, is the oil cooler. Oil? OK, not oil as such, but this e-bike is indeed liquid-cooled, thus preparing it very well for a life lived in high speed.

The biggest issue with racing electric bikes, when using “off-the-shelf” electric motors, is that they tend to overheat, as they were never intended to be used in such an extreme way. We saw this in the Infineon round of the TTXGP, as it was the beginning of the season and the learning curve. However, Brammo has developed this motor themselves, specifically for the Empulse. Thus, it should do fine in racing conditions. Unfortunately, we didn’t find out this weekend, as they pulled out of the race.

CEO Craig Bramscher explained to me that with the amount of overtime he’s put his engineers through to develop the Empulse, the last thing he wants to do right now is keep pushing them so hard. Which is so much more sustainable than how other electronics companies are run, with their insanely rushed new product launches. The electric motorcycle industry is moving fast, perhaps even faster than Moore’s Law. In fact, Craig did tell me this launch was ready sooner than he’d originally anticipated, although he realized it would be wiser to wait than to rush the new bike into racing.

Everyone thought Michael Czysz would run circles around the competition on his amazing e1cp, but Michael Barnes actually took pole position in the final qualifying session on the Lightning, at 1:45, with Czysz in second place at 1:47. We can only wonder where the Empulse would’ve stacked up against the two leaders…

If you’re interested in the Empulse, place your pre-order here to make sure you get yours hot off the Oregon assembly line in 2011…

Only watched the first 30 seconds of the video. Abysmal, maybe it gets better...:

[deronmoped]

Well, who is Brammo?

Maybe this is Yamaha, Honda or one of the other motorcycle giants going at it undercover. Testing the market without putting their name and reputation on the line.

I'm actually surprised that the major motorcycle manufacturers are not all over a E-motorcycle. Being the first one out of the gate with a killer bike would make them "King of the Hill" for a while, if not for decades.

If it was a major manufacturer, their buying power is huge. If a battery manufacturer could get hooked up with one of the giants, that almost guarantees them selling boat loads of batteries.

Deron.

[MitchJi]

Hi,

A little more info here (the battery cells are liquid cooled also):
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/15/brammo-goes-street-fighting-with-the-100mph-empulse-electric-mot/

Brammo goes street fighting with the 100mph Empulse electric motorcycle
By Tim Stevens posted Jul 15th 2010 9:30AM

Brammo goes street fighting with the 100mph Empulse electric motorcycle
When we took Brammo's Enertia motorcycle for a test ride last summer we found it to be a lovingly crafted and fun to ride bike that really only disappointed when it came to ultimate performance -- far closer to your average scooter than your average sportbike. Since then the company has gone racing, taking on the iconic Isle of Man as part of the all-electric TTXGP and finishing third place with a top speed of 102mph. That fully-faired bike was called the TTR, and now the company is making a naked version for you: the 100mph Empulse. Read on for full details and a little video too.

The Empulse is a radical departure from the Enertia, indicated by the way the company is promoting the thing. When we test rode that first bike Brammo reps were a little cagey about its top speed, initially indicating it would be limited to 50mph but later saying it'd do over 60 if you pushed it. With the Empulse they're making no bones about its 100mph+ top speed. That's hardly world-class in the world of motorcycles, but in the world of electric motorcycles it's a definite rarity.

So too are the looks. Most EVs look either like experiments thrown together in a garage or an attempt at replicating something from the future. The Empulse has rather more traditional styling, only its inclined array of water-cooled cells sitting where the motor should be plus that unusually large rear sprocket giving away its alternative means of propulsion. The front end looks rather like a Ducati Streetfighter or MV Augusta Brutale. The golden forks, Nissin brakes, and front fender shape are reminiscent of a 2005ish Triumph Speed Triple. The short, wide seat section is, however, unique to Brammo.

There will be three models offered: the 6.0, 8.0, and 10.0. These indicate the endurance of the bikes, with the lowest managing 60 miles of "average range" and the top of the line 100 miles, each of which can be extended by keeping your right wrist in check. The 6.0 will naturally be the cheapest, starting at $9,995, the 8.0 for $11,995, and the 10.0 will go for $13,995. That's before a whole raft of federal and state tax rebates which should save buyers at least 10 percent and, in some states like Colorado and Oklahoma, could knock multiple thousands of further dollars off the price.

he only catch? It doesn't ship until sometime next summer. If you want one then you'll need to get on the waiting list now, a refundable deposit saves your spot ahead of these things starting to roll out when the weather gets warm again after getting cold again. We're almost ready to place our order but need a little more information first -- primarily some firm performance figures beyond top speed plus maybe the weight and dimensions of the thing. Those, it seems, we'll have to wait a little while for too.

Update: We have some specs thanks to Hell for Leather, namely a horsepower rating of 55 with 59lb-ft of torque and a weight of 390lbs. That's comparable to your average 600cc sportsbike and far torquier, but also a good bit down on power compared to them. Still, all that torque here will be available from 0 RPM, which should make this thing deliciously fun to ride.

Looking at the pack sizes the ranges seem realistic:
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/07/brammo-empulse-electric-parity.html

Brammo Empulse: electric parity

This is the Brammo Empulse, it's going to turn the electric/Internal Combustion Engine paradigm on its head, forever altering the transportation landscape in America. That's a bold statement, right? Check this out: with tax breaks it's $500 cheaper than an SV650 and has a superior torque-to-weight ratio. It'll reach speeds in excess of 100mph and can travel over 100 miles between charges. Did we mention they plan to race it at Laguna Seca?

For the last couple of years, we've been watching electric bikes, amazed at the rate of progress. Products like the Brammo Enertia and Zero DS would make cool additions to a well-heeled enthusiast's multi-bike garage. But, one question always lingered: When will electrics be competitive with ICE bikes? The Empulse answers that question, the answer is "now."

A development of ideas originally seen on last year's Brammo Enertia TTR race bikes, the Empulse uses a liquid-cooled AC Synchronous motor as a stressed member in a huge aluminum beam frame with a tubular steal swingarm that actually pivots on the motor housing.

That motor puts out 55bhp and 59 lb-ft of torque which needs to power a bike that weighs just 390lbs ready-to-ride. That gives it a power-to-weight ratio of .141 hp/lbs and a torque-to-weight ratio of .151 lb-ft/lbs. Compare those number to the SV650's .167 hp/lbs and .109 lb-ft/lbs and you'll see that the Brammo is slightly behind on power-to-weight and slightly ahead on torque-to-weight.

But the traditional bugbear of electric vehicles hasn't necessarily been performance, but instead a very limited range. The Empulse will come with three different battery packs at three different price points:

Empulse 6.0: 6kWh, 60-mile average range, $9,995.

Empulse 8.0: 8kWh, 80-mile average range, $11,995.

Empulse 10.0: 10kWh, 100-mile average range, $13,995.

All three models are capable of achieving at least 100mph.

We spoke to Brammo CEO Craig Bramscher about those figures and how realistic they'll be for the average rider. He told us that the range figures have been calculated using an even mix of highway and city-speed riding. Stick to lower speeds and the maximum range for the 10.0 will be more like 130+ miles, cruise at high speed on the highway and expect more like 60-70 miles.

The bad news here is going to be recharge times. With the Empulse 10.0 and a 110v outlet, expect to be charging overnight. There's currently no official word on recharge times.

Because of the significant tax breaks available for electric vehicles from both state and federal governments, the end cost of the Empulse 10.0, the most expensive model in the range, could be as low as $7,000. Consult your local EV dealer to see what tax breaks are like where you live.

The exciting thing about these bikes isn't necessarily the outright performance level, but rather the price-to-energy density ratio. Batteries remain the single most expensive component of any electric motorcycle, but Brammo's found a way to significantly reduce their cost.

Compare the Empulse 6.0's 6kWh battery pack to the identically priced Zero DS's 4kWh capacity.

Bramscher is a little tight-lipped when discussing this solution, "Our development in racing had us with the highest energy density batteries we believe at TTXGP last year and that led us to develop our own batteries with chemistry to specification and our complete drivetrain solution has allowed us to carefully manage the temperature, balancing and life of the batteries. We are not going into too much detail as it is competitive advantage until it ships."

The rest of the motorcycle is surprisingly conventional. That huge extruded aluminum frame connects the swingarm pivot to the headstock and supports the batter packs. Front suspension is upside down forks holding radial Nissin brake calipers and there's a full-adjustable rear shock. Brammo chose to go for a streetfighter-inspired look with the Empulse as most riders will be using them in urban environments. While this pre-production model has clip-ons, they'll likely be optional on the production bike with taller handlebars standard.

The Empulse isn't scheduled to go on-sale until early next year, so what you see here will be changing a bit.

"That headlight is borrowed from a Yamaha MT-03, but will not be used for production as we are developing our own unit that is not ready yet, says Brammo's designer Brian Wismann. "The seat is a bit too wide and the tank a bit too narrow right now, so I'll be playing with that proportion a bit as well as we move towards production."

That swoopy seat unit is likely to be the most controversial element on the bike, adopting a vastly different look from the current sportsbike norm.

"Basically, I just wanted the design to be honest, says Wismann. "It's not the fastest thing on the road, but it is really fun to ride and is plenty fast to get yourself into trouble.

"Check out the passenger seat on every BMW S1000RR and you'll see a scuff mark cause they made the thing so high it's impossible to swing your leg over without scuffing up the seat. Since the Empulse is more in the flavor of a streetfighter or modern café racer and less so a 'race replica', I thought I'd try something a bit different."

Also likely to change is the tubular steel swingarm, which will probably go aluminum for production, and the final spec of the rear shock has yet to be decided. These tire sizes, 120/70-17 (front) and 180/55-17 (rear) will be retained, giving Empulse buyers the widest possible range of tires to choose from.

It's Brian you see riding the bike in these pictures. He says that, even with a pre-production motor putting out only 40bhp, "the bike has no problem reaching 100mph.

"The Empulse proves that electric motorcycles are viable today as an exciting alternative to internal combustion vehicles," the designer continues. "It also proves that this market can offer products at competitive price points as well rather than just $40-70,000 toys for the rich. Anyone who wants to experience a performance electric motorcycle now has a legitimate option."

Brammo plans to unveil the Empulse to the public at Laguna Seca on MotoGP weekend where a version of it will race against Michael Czysz and the MotoCzysz E1pc.

[neoplasticity]

Brammo is a small american company based out of Ashland, OR. I think that the big companies are watching the market to see how big it is before committing alot of resources to it. I think the problem is that most motorcyclists think of electric motorcycles as overpriced, underpowered toys for weenies.

The empulse is VERY well priced for an electric motorcycle and if they can deliver at this price point, it will be a gamechanger. BUT, even if they can deliver this for $10K, for that money, you can buy a CBR600 which would completely destroy the empulse in performance and range. In fact, a ninja 250 is likely to outperform the empulse for less than half the price. So I think that the market is still quite small unfortunately. Because the only people who will pay the price premium for an e-motorcycle are people who are early adoptors and just want the new cool toy or people who want to avoid gas consumption for environmental or political reasons.

I'm hoping that gas prices go up significantly so that electric vehicles become more attractive.

Well, who is Brammo?

Maybe this is Yamaha, Honda or one of the other motorcycle giants going at it undercover. Testing the market without putting their name and reputation on the line.

I'm actually surprised that the major motorcycle manufacturers are not all over a E-motorcycle. Being the first one out of the gate with a killer bike would make them "King of the Hill" for a while, if not for decades.

If it was a major manufacturer, their buying power is huge. If a battery manufacturer could get hooked up with one of the giants, that almost guarantees them selling boat loads of batteries.

Deron.

[Toshi]

I think your Ninja 250 comparison is bordering on hyperbole. That 250 has very little low end torque and less than 25 hp. The Empulse has its torque down low, 55 hp to boot when spun up, and is a more substantial machine all around. Comparing to the Empulse to something like a Triumph Street Triple is more fair, and while the ST still "wins" on paper due to power, it uses gasoline, has gears, is noisy, requires oil changes, etc. These things in and of themselves are advantages for EVs.

[emotofreak]

Actually the comparison is probably pretty close in terms of total performance. i.e. Acceleration and Top Speed. Ninja 250's are a lot of fun, I don't think it's a demeaning comparison. Comparing the Empulse, for which no real test data exists, to a Triumph Street Triple is probably a bigger stretch of imagination. But this is all WAG (Wild Ass Guessing) until we see some impartial test data.

Ninja = 28HP
Empulse = 55HP (claimed, I bet it's more like 40-45, the PMS-156 is only rated to 30kW)
Triumph Street Triple = 105HP!

Also, keep in mind the gas bikes have gears which allows them to use their power more effectively, electric single speed bikes will come out of current limiting at around 30-50% peak RPM and power just drops from there. I totally agree with the rest of your sentiments.

I think your Ninja 250 comparison is bordering on hyperbole. That 250 has very little low end torque and less than 25 hp. The Empulse has its torque down low, 55 hp to boot when spun up, and is a more substantial machine all around. Comparing to the Empulse to something like a Triumph Street Triple is more fair, and while the ST still "wins" on paper due to power, it uses gasoline, has gears, is noisy, requires oil changes, etc. These things in and of themselves are advantages for EVs.

[vanilla ice]

Like Toshi says, on an accurate chassis dyno a stock 250 ninja will show in the low twenties. Abouts 17kW max. But the power curves are reversed in shape. So like emf says the top end might be similar in speed & feel. The clutch helps a lot with the lacking bottom end on the little Ninja.

[neoplasticity]

Yes, I used to ride a ninja 250 in college. I'm pretty light at 160 lbs but for a rider that isn't too heavy, that bike is pretty zippy and was a ton of fun. If the Empulse performs like the ninja 250, I will be very happy with it. I've preordered the Empulse 6.0 and I'm looking forward to it.