Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Yesterday was kind of a wash; got home so tired that I didn't really get anything useful done with all the little naps I didn't mean to take.

Today I managed to find a cap to replace the main cap in the 6FET again, and that fixed the problem. I didn't try testing the other caps but none sizzle now (just the big one if i put pack voltage across it).

I decided to keep the Fusin on DGA for now, and put the 9C and Lyen 6FET on a "spare" bike built for the purpose tonite, The Velcro Eclipse:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20595&start=0

More to come as I have time to work on things.

I found the problem with the 13Ah battery--the bladefuse holder's clips were slightly spread apart, and so the fuse would vibrate out of the clips. I tightned them by squishing them together a little, and also added a little foam inside the holder lid to keep it from coming out even if it vibrates.

In other news, karma apologized for the A/C unit, and fed my dogs for the next month and a half. $312 worth of dog food. For $23, simply because the shelf spots for them were taken over by other brands of food.

I bought it while at work today, but now I have to bike back up there with the trailer to haul it home, in 106F heat. Oh, well, that's life. As soon as the battery is recharged from the to/from work trip, I'm off.

Trip was a success, and I only had a wheel fall off once. :lol:
Full account is here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=300489#p300489

Power usage on the trip (using the Fusin motor/controller and the 36V 13Ah NiMH pack):

121Wh total
3.25Ah total
16.7A peak (controller limited, ran the whole way on "low" setting).
4.941 miles total (less than usual due to some shortcuts I took walking the bike/trailer across no-thru-intersections that normally I would have to ride at least 1/4 mile out of the way to get around).
8.3MPH avg

Outbound (unloaded):
2.22 miles
44.4Wh
1.25Ah

Inbound (loaded with 200lbs+ in trailer):
2.721 miles
76.6Wh
2.0Ah

hehehe must have been quite the ride, I remember when I rode in 100F heat, temples begin pulsing and I feel sick when that happens, can't imagine how you managed it, but as you said, that's life!
How's the bike getting along?

amberwolf said:

Trip was a success, and I only had a wheel fall off once. :lol:
Full account is here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=300489#p300489

Power usage on the trip (using the Fusin motor/controller and the 36V 13Ah NiMH pack):

121Wh total
3.25Ah total
16.7A peak (controller limited, ran the whole way on "low" setting).
4.941 miles total (less than usual due to some shortcuts I took walking the bike/trailer across no-thru-intersections that normally I would have to ride at least 1/4 mile out of the way to get around).
8.3MPH avg

Outbound (unloaded):
2.22 miles
44.4Wh
1.25Ah

Inbound (loaded with 200lbs+ in trailer):
2.721 miles
76.6Wh
2.0Ah

Click to expand...

novembersierra28 said:

hehehe must have been quite the ride, I remember when I rode in 100F heat, temples begin pulsing and I feel sick when that happens, can't imagine how you managed it, but as you said, that's life!

Click to expand...

Well, it's a lot drier here than where you are, so exercising in 100F there would probably make most people sick. Even when it's "really humid" here, it's probably not as much so as there. That said, it still sucks when doing pedal-only rides in this heat; even beyond just how my knees feel. WIth the motor, it is far easier on me in many ways. Some things I need to do would not even be possible anymore without the motor (like hauling lots of heavy cargo).

How's the bike getting along?

Click to expand...

It's ok so far, but it needs an overhaul. Rear rack/pod is getting kinda wiggly. Not a lot, just sort of a not-quite-stiff feeling. I'm not sure if it's metal fatigue in the aluminum panels or if it is just working loose, or if (much worse) something is wrong with the aluminum rear triangle of the bike itself.

I sort of suspect the latter, because even unloaded the back end doesn't feel right anymore. I need to take the rack and panels off completely and check for cracks, before I smear myself on pavement when something comes off under load at speed.

I've still got the Fusin on it, and will probably switch that over to the Velcro Eclipse, and put the 9C back on DGA; it definitely makes a difference when hauling stuff, trying to take off from a stop, even when current-limited. The Fusin could easily handle the Velcro Eclipse, and is a little more "stealth" than the 9C. And lighter. Since TVE doesn't have a big enough space in the bag for the big NiMH pack, using the smaller motor with the smaller pack makes more sense from a range standpoint, too.

Another care package from Ianmcnally:


A few ebrake handles, the two-wire kind, which I actually sort of need right now for The Velcro Eclipse so I can test out regen braking on it.

A couple of dead controllers; a Crystalyte pedal-first and an instant start that looks from the outside like some of the Infineons (haven't had time to open it yet).

Three bundles of spokes; two are unused and one is from a rim that's coming in a separate package, which I can use to replace the bent on on the Fusin. The spokes themselves are too long for the 9C and too short for the Fusin, at least on a 26" wheel (might be perfect for a 24"), but the nipples will be useful for the Fusin re-rimming assuming the threads are the same. The used spokes have washers on them, which may prove useful in other relacings.

A thumb throttle with a wire broken out of it's connector (easy to fix, if that's all that's wrong).

Two keyswitches that appear to be about the same as the Fusin's, for power capacity.

Two 3PDT switches, one of which I'm going to test out Auraslip's phase-lock idea, along with a flip-cap to prevent ever accidentally switching the lock on while riding/etc.
View attachment 7
I can send a flip-cap to Auraslip for his, too. (but I think I will put both switches to use as locks on DGA and TVE)

Some Crystalyte-style connectors/pins and Anderson connectors (will be very useful soon, to change the ones on the 9C and Lyen controller over, as soon as I have time--make it easier to swap motors and controllers out for testing and experimenting. Maybe on the Fusin, too).

12-volt NiMH charger, to go with the other 12V worth of NiMH F-cells, originally from the big pack sent to me that's now on DGA.

Two not-quite-working WattsUP:

which doesn't read any voltage, just current:
View attachment 5
I thougth that was really bizarre until I took the velcro off the back and saw this:

where it appears to have had a little overcurrent at some point. :lol: The shunt solder melted and dribbled down onto other components:

I can clean up the solder, so assuming no electrical damage occured, it might work after that.
The other WU has a severe display problem:

which could be the LCD or the MCU. If I hold it just right I can see text flickering within the dark blocks on the LCD top line, so something is happening and it's not "dead". If it's just the LCD, perhaps I can combine the MCU board from this one and the LCD from the green one, and make one working one.

Hachi was curious during the unpacking and picture taking at first:
View attachment 1
But she got bored pretty quick.

None of the others even came over to check it out (too hot, probably).

Now I have to go get TVE ready to ride out to meet a friend with a truck, to pick up a dead treadmill from Freecycle.

Got the treadmill, nice motor and some other stuff.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=303915#p303915
Probably gonna use parts on my in-progress cargo bike.

I spent a part of last night retruing the rear wheel, which I had not gotten back to after I whacked the bike on that curb and messed it up a bit back. Put the brakes back together back there, too, and finally had rear brakes again.

Headed off to work today on it and hit a stupid pothole I always manage to miss, turning a corner, and messed up the rear wheel so bad that I could not even spin it past that point against the brakes, which were pinned against the cargo rack side plate by the rim. I had to gimpily walk the bike home the 1/2 mile or so in the heat and humidity, then take Velcro Eclipse to work instead. I was already late by the time I reached the house, as it took at least 45 minutes to go that half mile. (I'm no longer a fast walker with these knees the way they are, especially basically carrying the heavy back end of DGA the whole way, while trying to steer it at the same time.)

I'm just glad I had put TVE together and tested it out last week, or I'd've been a lot later to work, since I'd've had to replace the rear wheel on DGA first. Now I can put that off until I have time for it, which will probably be Saturday. Today I worked closing shift and tomorrow I work opening, and then have to go help a friend try to save a harddisk. Rest of the week I need to be working on my TNG transporter console and the UFP club's classic console so that they will be ready for Coppercon and the UFP's anniversary gathering.

The bent wheel problem above turned out to be a couple of broken spokes, which when swapped out were able to retrue the wheel to at least not rub the brakes, but I didn't get it far enough to put the brakes back on yet.

Yesterday on teh way home form work I was passing by a thrift store and they were about to toss out some stuff that hadn't sold, including these (still strapped to DGA):

They're a pair of skis, which might be usable in part as leaf springs, for a trailer if not for a bike. They don't have any holes drilled in them for shoe clamps, which makes them nicer in that I get to decide where to put the "weak spots" those will create. I am not sure what they are made of internally yet. Nice color, though.


When I got home, the other box from Ianmcnally showed up:

That rim will replace the bent FUsin rim until I get a way to unbend it. Won't be able to do the work very soon, though; tomorrow is full:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=306462#p306462
and next week I work every day but Saturday, and that day I have to finish anything left to do on the transporter console(s) and attend the gathering they're being shown at.

Unexpectedly there is also a Slime tire liner in there, which I can also definitely use, and another 12V NiMH charger with pack thermistor (whcih I also need).


In other news, a local friend found an ACE Hardware closing down that had all their stuff half off, and picked me up some DayGlo paints and white primer (among other things), so DGA will again glow brightly, once time permits properly stripping it down and repainting it.

i had no idea you took rims i have a closet full

Ha...I bend rims up so often that I'll take any I can get. I only have two (now three) double-wall rims, and one of those is the bent one on the Fusin.

Realistically, I can eventually use almost anything that someone else doesn't want. It might take years to get to it, and it might have nothing to do with it's original purpose, but....


On to today's results from DGA.

Yesterday, in anticipation of needing to take the kennel trailer to go pick up a couple of trailers
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=306751#p306751
and after a few days of having an odd issue with DGA where on medium or high the Fusin would sag the battery so bad that it would actively cut out from LVC during acceleration or almost any WOT situation under load, I swapped the 9C/Lyen 6FET back in. Unfortunately the results are basically the same, so it is something with the 36V 13Ah NiMH battery.

I wanted to swap them anyway, as I wanted the 9C's pulling power on DGA, and I only need The Velcro Eclipse to work reliably as a backup bike. The Fusin has definitely been reliable; it just doesn't quite have the acceleration under heavy loads or from a stop that I would like, even when it's set to medium or high where it sucks at least as much current as the 9C 2807 does with the limits I set in the 6FET (limit is 16A but it actually pulls more like 19-20; in low the Fusin draws 16A, and in Med/High at least 19A and up).

Also I wanted regen braking on DGA, as I don't have a rear brake on it much of the time due to bent rims or untrued wheels from broken spokes (and I can't add disc to the rear since it's aluminum frame and I can't weld on a caliper-mounting point). Regen braking adds significantly to my stopping power, and prevents a lot of wear on pads. The FUsin's motor/controller regen braking "works" but does not generate enough current (in the range of 50mA) to actively slow me down or to recharge the pack a bit. The 9C/Lyen 6FET doesnt' have any trouble with doing this.


Anyhow, theyr'e swapped, and the battery turns out ot be the problem. I have to unwrap my packing of it to see if it is just a bad connection somewhere, or if it is a cell failing or out of balance. Hopefully it is not pack damage from charging/heating or anything, but there's little to do if it is.

The 24V F-cell pack that I now have thermistors to charge with needs to be broken back in, and tested, so I can mate it with the 12V pack recently donated, and have another 36V spare pack for long distance travel. I already know the 24V pack will have bad sag at over 7-8A, so I will not likely use it a lot normally.

I might instead mate the 12V 13Ah pack with the existing 36V 13Ah pack, since they are all originally from the same pair of 24V packs, and make a 48V pack (charged as two separate 24V packs, while left in series, with independent chargers). That would increase the max speed of DGA, too, but I do not need that--I do need the extra voltage to compensate for the sag under heavy loads, though, if something is wrong with the existing cells.


I don't know what use it will be yet (except for the hose clamp I already took off of it), but I was donated today what amounts to a very very large (and heavy!) hair dryer, shown here on DGA before I unlaoded it.

It has a very thick and heavy casing that appears to be cast aluminum or similar, with a 1/16" wall steel tube out the front. Motor is probably a universal; it's listed as an AC motor, with wiring diagram/etc on the label. Haven't opened up the mtoor itsel to check, but it'll go in the parts room until I hav a chnce to check it out more. It does kinda work, it moves ar and gets hot, but not a lot of air for the noise it makes. Well, Ill check it out eventually.

well im getting to the point when i need to get rid of some parts to make room. when i have the time i will post them on my webpage. you can pick threw them
see what you want there free. as always i only ask you pay for the shipping. :wink:


cheers

That would be cool. Just let me know when they're up (I'll probably forget to keep an eye out, like usual).


I got the box from Ianmcnally out to get that 12V pack out. Ran it on a lawn trimmer motor for a few minutes to pull it down some, then charged it up on the charger sent in the box with it, and it seems to charge ok. It put 2.97Ah back in (I didn't monitor the usage on the motor, though I'm sure it was a lot less than that).

While I was waiting for it to drain/test and charge, I opened up the two controllers. It took me a minute to find the Crystalyte's problem, but it was pretty obvious for the Ecrazyman. :lol:

you can see the contents of the caps sprayed out above them, and that they're swollen up on top (ruptured thoroughly).

Also, I thought part of the negative wire insulation had melted off and dripped on the PCB, but it's not that. That used to be the SHUNTS that are melted like that.

Other than the shunts and the caps, and the slightly melted negative power wire insulation where the shunts touched it while still hot from having melted, there isn't any other visible damage, except for the small dark area on the trace near there on the bottom of the PCB.

The topside looks fine, other than the corrosion of a few little places like the raw copper edges of the FETs here and there, and the linty remains of the insides of the caps spewed all over.


As a side note, they do at least put thermal paste on the FET mounting bar to case surface, but they sure do put a lot more than there should be, which is going to hinder heat transfer rather than help (although it's not as bad as an airgap, I guess).

View attachment 6

Oddly enough, I did have extra shunts for a very similar (but more FETs) controller, on a nearly bare PCB Methods had donated to me, but thinking I probably wouldn't need them I sent them to Olaf-lampe a while back with some other things I was helping him get. Oh, well, I'm sure I have more of them around here in another dead controller that I can trim or add to to get them to what these used to be--I'll just have to do some searching of the forums to find out what resistance these shunts typically are for the 12-fet Ecrazyman.

Once I fix those things, I can then try powering up and testing it. Well, I should probably ohm out the FETs first, just in case. IIRC this controller died from a reverse power application, while attached to the batteries thru the green WattsUp above that has it's shunt nearly melted off the PCB, with the solder drips around it (whcih was caused by the same extremely high current that actually did melt the shunt in the controller).



Now the Crystalyte was a more subtle problem, and I'm not yet sure what would have caused it. I'll have to ohm things out first to check, but I have some suspicions.

Note the backdrop you can see thru the gap in the cap leg. Kinda not supposed to be able to do that.

What I think happened is that vibration of the caps (the hot glue holding them to the PCB was separated from this one and the center one to the left of it in the pic) wiggled the legs until a fracture developed in it, possibly started by handling during assembly, like bending the legs or grabbing them with pliers/etc, causing a high-resistance spot to develop in the leg. Then as the controller is used, over time the leg heating caused by phase currents draining and refiling the caps eventually got to the point where the leg separated entirely, and arced across the miniscule gap, then burned away enough leg to stop the arc.

Broadband high-power RF noise from the arc induced into the rest of the PCB and wiring could have damaged other things, including the FETs, but I would have to measure them all first. I doubt that the controller would be dead just from having a phase cap out of circuit like this, alhtough it certainly could act abnormally.

Another oddity of construction is the LM317:

It's really hard ot see in the pics, but it's backplate sticks out from it's plastic casing, whihc is highly abnormal, and could be that the casing is actually blown away from it from vaporized silicon, but there is no other trace of such a failure. such as melting or other insulation damage to these low-temperature wires they've run from the pins of th 317 to the PCB.


Also a note about the thermal paste; it's similar to the Ecrazyman in that they used too much:


Shot of PCB:



.

Most people don't know it, but most thermal paste degrades over time and loses its thermal goodness and can become worse than no paste at all... Reputable manufacturers will spec its working life (which can be surprisingly short).

That's one reason why using a thick layer of it is bad--once it dries out, it's just powder and air.

If all you use is literally enough to fill scratches and whatnot, and the surfaces are planar and parallel, then it doesn't matter nearly as much when it degrades, because you still have metal-to-metal contact over almost all of the surface area. If you do it this way, then realistically it doesn't even matter if you use crappy paste, because it's still better than plain air, even after it dries out.

Of course, something with a much slower evaporating or catalyzing or otherwise deteriorating solvent will be better than the cheap watery titanium dioxide stuff you usually end up with, but even that stuff is better than air, when applied properly to a correctly made and prepared pair of surfaces.

EDIT: It never occurred to me before, but I guess the cheap stuff is actually "powdered titanium rust". :lol:

I think I may have figured out the NiMH problem, and it probably isn't a single cell, but rather the whole pack. The thermistor connector on the pack itself appears to have broken the wire at the connector end, but not *completely*. That means that sometimes it would connect and sometimes would not, but worse it means that sometimes it would disconnect after charging started. I checked what happens under this condtion, and the stupid charger just keeps going without erroring out. I guess it only checks for thermistor presence *before* it starts charging, and assumes it will still be there later.

SO my guess is that the thermistor wire disconnected inside it's insulation during an unattended charge (there have been more than a few of those), and then the pack overcharged or at least overheated due to no thermistor reading to tell the charger to stop, until the voltage or current cutoff (whatever that is) was reached.

Unfortunaely I know from reading and from the 24V 13Ah pack I got from Deardancer that this problem can damage the cells so that they sag heavily under load, exactly like is happening. That 24V pack experienced an overheat, and exhibited these symptoms, before I got it; I bought it (super cheap) knowing this would be the case.

Well, we'll see what happens once I open the 36V pack up and check individual cells under load to see if it's just some or all. If it's only some, I'm going to test the 12V and the 24V pack the same way, and start shuffling cells around tll I make a better pack of whatever voltage that turns out to be, 24V, 36V, or 48V. Then I'll just have to make sure I monitor the charging process from now on so that doesn't happen, or else take an old PC-case temperature monitor with alarms I've got and stick it's sensors inside the pack, and run that whenever I'm charging, with an alarm at the highest temperature I want to allow. If necessary I'll build a relay that turns off power to the charger based on the alarm output.

Today, after a lot of rest yesterday (after getting the TNG Transporter Console ready for Coppercon, delivering it and the classic console to the con and setting them up) and the first half of today, I finally felt well enough to get some work done on the bike. Fortunately my crazy sister hasn't been home most of the day, so I could work in relative peace (there's still the dogs, but at least I can predict what they'll do and work around it).

First thing I did was to rebuild the 36V 13Ah NiMH pack plus the 12V 13Ah into two 24V 13Ah packs I can run in series. The 48V ought to make enough of an oomph difference to help make up for the voltage sag it has under current loads approaching even 1/2C.

THe white plastic strips used to be clipstrips holding products to shelves in a store, for impulse buys. They're very thick and slick plastic, so they will keep anything from shorting the ends of the cells together. I already successfully used them on the pack as a 36V pack since I put it together after arrival from Ianmcnally. A couple months, I guess?

The fan in one of hte chargers was dead so I swapped it out from some stuff I had laying around saved from some other dead device.

That red pencil iron is an 80W Weller, 900F. It'll solder 10G wire to the end of a NiMH F-cell in about 3 seconds. 1.5 seconds or less to solder nickel tabs.... It was a gift from a local friend, picked up at a closing-down Ace hardware (he also got me some more dayglo paint).

I swapped the XLR connectors on the chargers for Powerpoles...I also changed all the power connections on the Lyen controller, the Fusin headlight/powermeter/keyswitch unit, and the batteries and chargers over to the small 30A Anderson Powerpoles. I chose those because I have accumulated enough of them off of various things, plus a few new ones, to be able to put them on all the things I want to use on this bike. I don't have enough of the large 50/60A Multipoles to do this with, even if I take all the ones off of CrazyBike2, which I'd rather not do. That bike *needs* the hefty power connectors, and DGA doesn't, really, with the current limit of 16A (20A in reality) I've got programmed into the Lyen 6FET right now.

I also put them on the now-repaired Turnigy Watt Meter
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21267&start=0
but I left the Multipoles on the WattsUP from AussieJester, so I can use it on CrazyBike2 or The Velcro Eclipse (both of which still have Multipoles for battery and controller).

It might be hard to see in the pic above, but I put the thermistor on a blue powerpole on the packs, and a yellow one on the chargers. This is so I get used to the idea that blue doesn't plug into blue, so I don't get tired and forget not to hook up the thermistors together or try to plug the packs into each other. :lol: I put the powerpoles in an L shape so I can't plug them in off one row or something; I'm probably going to stick one more in there as a key that's different between the two so they can't be plugged into each other even accidentally. Because that would be very bad.

They are to be run in series, which means that at the moment I have to unmount one of the red or black powerpoles so that it can be plugged into it's opposite on the other pack. Then the keyswitch cable on the Fusin headlight/etc unit gets plugged into the remaining + and - of the seriesed packs.

Since the Fusin headlight unit is for 36V, and I do not have time to investigate it's innards to either verify it can be run right off 48V, or to alter it to do so, I just clipped the wire from power to the board inside it. The keyswitch still works, just no headlight or power meter on it for now.

I didn't have time tonight, but at some point will put powerpoles at the output of the Fusin H/KS/PM unit so I can plug a watt meter right after the keyswitch, without running another long set of cables up the frame. I will also move the controller up there on the bars (stem, actually), both so it will get better cooling and so that I can shorten all the power wiring to only *one* long run up the frame, isntead of two. That'll also shorten the motor wires and all the bar control wires, too.


Took it for a test run around the block, and it absolutely performed better than as a 36V pack, with the sag. Unfortunately I was stupid and shutoff the keyswithc like always before getting off the bike, which cleared the wattmeter readings. So I don't know what the minimum voltage was, alhtough I know it was 56.02V starting out.

I recharged the packs, each with it's own 24V 3A charger, with a desk fan blowing on them to keep them from staying hot very long. Charge was successful, after about an hour, so about 3Ah of power back into them. I did not use the wattmeter like I should have becuase I don't have two with the right connectors yet, and somehow didn't think of monitoring just one (since the other ought to be similar).

I'd like to charge them in series, but I don't know if the chargers will work right that way, due to the thermistor being referenced to pack negative--it might damage something to have a 24V+ difference between the thermistor ground on the "top" pack and the actual pack negative. So they each get their own charger for now, or I can charge both with one charger, just one at a time.

Theoretically the 48V pack as 2x 24V should charge faster with two 24V 3A chargers than a 36V pack with one 36V 4A charger.

It'll be a busy and tiring week again, so I doubt I'll get much done unless my crazy sister stays out of the house, so I can do things outside my bedroom without encountering her and having to deal with her and the problems she creates.

Everything is still working normally with the 2x 24V series pack setup. Made my normal work commute just fine, with the response that I had been getting from the 36V pack before it got damaged (presumably by overheating during charge).

The only thing I don't like is that even though I'm only drawing 19-20A *max* from the system, and typically less than 10A once up to speed, these little 30A Powerpoles get overly warm. Some I am sure they're not seating right and are higher resistance because of it, since I reused a few where the wires they came from (on dead controllers) had not been soldered in or crimped tightly, so I could just pull the wires out. PUtting them on the DGA cabling and crimping/soldering probably distorted them a bit (if they weren't already), so they likely don't sit flat like they should.

But even the brand new contacts are warm, when mated with other brand new contacts. Now, I know it's 105°F out there right now, but the bike was in the A/C all day, with my ice bottle in the cargo pod, chilling it all down. Within one minute of starting my ride home I stopped in the shade to get my sunglasses out that I'd forgotten to put on, and when I touched the wiring with the back of my hand I could feel the warmth at some of the connectors (the wiring had also warmed up by then, too, since it conducts the heat away from the connectors fairly quickly). I checked them all and while nowhere near the heat of the controller case, for instance, or the outside of the black top panel of the cargo pod, they were pretty warm, noticeably so even in the somewhat-cooler-than-105°F air in the now-open cargo pod.

This disturbs me; the much larger 50A/60A Multipoles didn't get warm like that, and not even under the often higher currents of CrazyBike2's drive. But they have a contact surface area that is many times that of the 30A powerpoles.

Only a couple of these contacts (the ones on the watt meter) have wires large enough to cause either the contact rear portion or the wire insulation to even come in contact with the housing, much less distort it and cause the twisting/etc. that I suspected caused this sort of thing before. So while i am sure there is still some of that happening here, there are connections that none of that should be happening to that are still just as warm as the rest of them.

However, the Turnigy Watt Meter was also pretty warm; I guess that's expected too, with the shunt in there.


Ok, now for the numbers. The voltage sag really is pretty bad:
40.38V min sometime during the trip home
50V resting right after I stopped at my front door at the end of the trip home.
51.25V resting about 5 minutes after I got in the door.
870W peak, which is significantly higher than with 36V even considering the voltage sag.
20.44A peak; a little higher than at 36V.
1.488Ah
66.4Wh
That's for the trip home, the ~3 miles. I didn't have the speedo on it (I forgot), so I can only approximate that I was about 18-20MPH on most straightaways, and ~15MPH or less everywhere else.

Trip to work, about 2.3 miles, I only remember the Wh was 59.something, because I meant to write it all down and got pulled right into work when I arrived, didn't have the chance, and forgot. Same kind of speeds as coming home.

I'm pretty sure the peak W and A were nearly identical; something like 43V minimum for sag, and 53V resting when I got there. Can't even remember anything about the rest.


I did some sketching at lunch, staring at the horrendous spaghetti loom on the handlebars/stem, and trying to decide where up there the controller will go.


I think I'm going to take the headlight/cluster fairing off the Honda Scooter and put it on DGA, to cover all this mess. My sketch shows a "better" idea, but I'd need to work out measurements and stuff, make a mold, and vacuform it to do it the way I want it to look. Less work and time and whatnot to adapt the existing stuff, making it far more likley to actually get done.

Charging numbers:

Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.97V start
28.67V finish
29.82V peak just before "finish" delta-V
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
5.016Ah put back in
142.3Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.83V start
28.4V finish
29.81V peak just before "finish" delta-V
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.558Ah put back in
128.8Wh put back in

Presumably these numbers will gradually balance out as I discharge these in series and then recharge as separate packs. For now, I am going to just use charger "A" to do each one, one at a time, with the Turnigy Watt Meter on there monitoring the numbers, and try to remember to post the results here. Once I see if they are going to change from the discrepant results each has now, I'll just charge them up simultaneously with both A and B chargers, to speed the process (and eliminate the possibility of me forgetting to charge the second pack, by falling asleep before the first finishes and then being stuck with very unbalanced packs for the work commute the next day).

Speaking of sleeping....

Did my normal to-work commute, then rode from there to pickup a couple of DayGlo yellow mesh contruction-type vests (in pretty new condition) from Freecycle. The ride was the to-work 2.3 miles, then about 7 miles to the place from work, then about 10 miles home including a stop at the grocery store on the way back.

Just in case I had problems with the battery (given that I haven't really range-tested it yet), I did a fair bit of pedalling, mostly to offset the strongish wind (which started changing direction as I headed back, so I rode into the wind almost the entire ride though it was weaker on the way back, at least).

My usual to-work leg of the trip was at 17-20MPH, wherever possible. I stayed about 10-12MPH most of the way from work to pickup point, then since I still had lots of power left I decided to keep it at about 15MPH most of the way home. All legs of the trip had some heavy acceleration and higher speed bursts to get into and out of traffic, at least a couple where I had to speed up to 25MPH to keep from being squished by sudden lane changers. Oddly enough, that was on the way home, while wearing one of the vests I picked up, making me even MORE visible than usual.

Last leg of the trip, from store to home, I was so tired I didn't pedal except when I had to to accelerate into/out of traffic.

Now the bad part: I screwed up when I stopped at the store and turned the key off as I got off, totally forgetting to write down the entire leg of the trip from the pickup location to the store itself, which is about 6.5 miles. So I have no data for that leg of the trip. I guess I ought to put the meter on the battery side of the switch, even though it is a constant power drain, just so that doesnt' happen when I'm trying to collect data like this.


Trip to work:
20.46Ap
919Wp
50.7Wh
1.063Ah
42.37Vm
52.87Vrest

Trip from work to pickup point:
20.44Ap
889Wp
128.3Wh
2.968Ah
40.6Vm
50.64Vrest

Trip from store to home:
20.41Ap
870Wp
48.8Wh
1.117Ah
37.46Vm
48.7Vrest

That sag under load...it is pretty awful.

Recharging numbers in next post once it's done.

So your range on that old 48 volt battery so far is approximatey 19 miles? Not bad. The sag sucks but my experience with NIMH is that they sag badly under heavy load, i guess the C rate is low. I hate running out of juice!


I've been stuck a few times too when I have pushed the range on my other old NIMH, do you carry a backup battery or what? you can not pedal the crazy bike for sure. Maybe you should add a pair of lipos to your list of things wanted.. you could fix up someones puffers as a limp home pack, two 5 series is about 36 volts.

ianmcnally2 said:

So your range on that old 48 volt battery so far is approximatey 19 miles? Not bad.

Click to expand...

I suspect the range if I am relatively conservative with the power could be as much as 30 miles; probably 20 if I'm generous.

Charging on the first half put 10Ah or so back into it, which given perhaps 1.3 to 1.5 ratio of power in to power kept in cells that it seems to take to charge NiMH, means I used perhaps half of the available power. Full charge numbers later when the other half finishes.

The sag sucks but my experience with NIMH is that they sag badly under heavy load, i guess the C rate is low.

Click to expand...

Well, until the 36V worth of them that I was using on DGA (before you sent the other 12V) got damaged, they didn't sag very much if you look at the numbers in previous posts. I am guessing that damage occured probably during the charge cycle by an apparent intermittent thermistor connection fault plus a design quirk of the charger not stopping a charge if the connection fails *after* it starts charging. So they got overheated, which is a killer for NiMH. Same thing that happened to the first 24V 13Ah pack I got from Deardancer (although it was before I got that one, and the reason I got it so cheap).

So they'd actually still work really well if it werent' for that. I think 2C isn't unrealistic for NiMH, at least for these. 1C for sure. But now they can't even do 1/2C without major sag. At least they still work, and the 48V gives it almost the performance it had before, even during the sag.

Plus I still have that other 24V 13Ah pack I could series with it for a 72V pack if I really need to. Now that I have the other thermistor from the second 12V charger you sent, I can put that in that pack and start reconditioning it for use, at least as a spare.

I hate running out of juice!

Click to expand...

Yeah, running out when you really need it especially. Like at the end of the return trip hauling a bunch of heavy cargo.

I've been stuck a few times too when I have pushed the range on my other old NIMH, do you carry a backup battery or what?

Click to expand...

If I have the trailer then yes, I carry the other 36V 9Ah pack, and I can start carrying the white 24V 13Ah pack once I recondition it. I could carry either or both of those in just the cargo pod, but typically I am not going far enough to need it. Heck, for the work commute the 36V 9Ah pack does just fine, if I wanted to ride lighter (but it stays on The Velcro Eclipse as my backup bike unless I have to take it as a spare for a long cargo haul).

I also have 32V 60Ah of Thundersky that I am building the BMS for, so that I can have that as a pack for DGA or CB2, etc. It'll actually fit all in the bottom half of the cargo pod on DGA, but it's 42lbs so unless I REALLY need the range I'd rather not use it on the bike itself, but rather on the trailer. (and I have two pusher trailer ideas to work on if time ever permits, either of which could use them).

you can not pedal the crazy bike for sure.

Click to expand...

No, not really. Without the motor and batteries (about 60-70lbs, more than a third of it) I can actually pedal it, but it hurts my knees on all the startups--it wasn't made to be ridden without power. I can't shift in gears low enough to be helpful and still startup because I can't get going fast enough to not start to fall over, due to the instability of the steering at speeds lower than walking speed and a bit higher, and the lack of pendulum help due to the seat height.

Maybe you should add a pair of lipos to your list of things wanted.. you could fix up someones puffers as a limp home pack, two 5 series is about 36 volts.

Click to expand...

Yeah, maybe that would help; but I'd still need at least an LVC for them so I don't make them worse.

I do actually have LiCo cells that I can build a pack from, but all these projects have just gotten away from me, and I have far too many ideas, with far too little time, to actually do most of them. For most of the year or so I've been on ES, I was working very very little at a regular dayjob, and only a little more at other jobs as I could find them. Now I'm working nearly full time (though not enough money it's way better than before), plus my crazy sister has stopped leaving for days at a time like she used to, so it's really hard to find much contiguous time I can work on things. (it's very very difficult to do anything outside my bedroom when she is here; most of the time I have to keep me and the dogs in here so we can stay away from the craziness that stresses *all* of us out beyond our means to deal with it--it drives the dogs nuts enough that sometimes fights start becuase they are so stressed out!).

I fnally fell asleep last night but before the charging was done, and dind't have time to psot the restults before leaving for work, so here they are. maybe tomorrow ahve the results from tonite's charging.

Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
24.38V start
28.59V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
10.159Ah put back in
282.8Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
24.78V start
28.00V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
10.636Ah put back in
297.1Wh put back in

It *looks* like Pack B took more to charge this time, but unfortuantely becasue I fell asleep, it sat there at the 0.06A to 0.09A or so trickle charging all night, for about 7 or 8 hours I'd guess, which Pack A did not get to do at all (it was removed from the charger as soon as it was done).

So assuming 0.09A trickle for 8 hours, is another 0.72Ah. Assuming only 0.06A trickle for 8 hours would be only 0.48Ah. That would change the 10.636Ah recharge on Pack B to 9.916Ah (or potentially up to 10.156Ah), making it a lot more like I was expecting--less than Pack A or about the same.

I'm going to try to remember to check Pack B at end of charge tonite and write everything down even if i can't post it; it shouldn't be too long now. It's pointless to collect data on charging them if I don't have identical test conditions.

Oh, I forgot to post the pics from yesterday's trip to get the vests, and the funny bit of the trip.

The two yellow-green vests are what I picked up. The funny bit is that orange vest was blowing down the sidewalk caught on some bushes on my way back down 43rd Ave. It's in near perfect condition, except for a couple tiny holes where bush branches poked it I think.

It's a solid thin vinyl vest, though, so it'd be hot to wear. However it *will* work pretty well as a visiblity covering for any backpack or cargo I tie to the back of The Velcro Eclipse's rack, as well as helping to deflect water from it if it happens to be drizzling (actual heavier rain would probably not be deterred for long). So I'll leave it in the bar bag of TVE.

The second yellow vest will stay with DGA for similar purposes. I tested that onthe leg of the trip home from the store yesterday, but as usual I forgot to snap a pic of it when i got home (well, there were a lot fo things going on because of my crazy sister, which kinda used up most of my day after getting back).

While I'm posting about visibility stuff, here's a pic of me (in a mirror, in bad light, so the camera won't focus and I couldn't use the flash) with a yellow vest on (the one I rode home wearing), plus my usual helmet, glasses, and safety shades.


Here's my helmet with peeling/fading Rustoleum dayglo stripes and leftover bits of reflective tape front and back:
View attachment 3
View attachment 2



And when we get some fish and plants in at work, they come in cardboard boxes lined with 1/2" thick or centimeter-thick (depeding on source) styrofoam sheets. Some also have this silvery metallic bubble wrap (no pic ofthat though). Here's how I recycled that today--I line the cargo pod with it, to insulate it from the heat, since I am moving the controller up to the bars, so only the battery will be in there and it shouldn't produce much heat in use (and I take it out during charging), so the ice bottle I carry will be able to keep my stuff (and the battery) cooler than before insulating it.

FWIW, I'd already done this with CB2's cargo pods, and I did it a few times to DGA but not recently, due to having the controller in there.

And thanks to the above post, I remembered that I had started to move the controller but not finished (because my crazy sister came home), so I went back and finished up the controller move and tied up the cables. I also removed all the Fusin stuff except the headlight/powermeter/keyswitch unit, since the rest will go on The Velcro Eclipse.

Having to work around my crazy sister took twice as long as it should, but I managed to make it workable, and surprisingly only broke one thing--I accidentally cut the power and ground wires to my relay setup when cutting a zip tie. Easily fixed, but more time to do it.

It's not too bad, but it's still ugly.

If I had a little handlebar/stem fairing sort of thing like the sketch a few posts up, it'd hide all that ugly wiring pretty well.

Now I have the meter up front where I can read it as I ride, so maybe now I can do that watts-at-speed thing for TylerDurden.

The bike looks a little neater without that huge bundle of wires running down the toptube.


And a shot of the 2x 24V 13Ah NiMH packs in there, with the backpack that holds whatever I need to take places.

I use a backpack for ease of removing it from the pod, and also so that I can carry even more stuff on the bike, if it's small little things I can put in the backpack and then tie it down to the rack, filling the pod with other stuff. Or wear the pack, and tie stuff to the rack, and fill the pod.