Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

[Thud]

Ryan,
Thanks for the input, I normally am contensious while winding these & have some custom made tools to help me out. This is prolly #15 in my motor winding exploits. Mostly tiny out runners for park flier scale Rc planes. Did a few modifed 540's for rc cars also. I like to build things so this is a natural hobby for me. I'll haev a nice radiused shell of thickend high temp resin to ease the corners. This gives us a pretty good thermal transfer. But outrunners don't have an ideal path of conduction for cooling.

Kim,
re-winding plan:
I was going to do this on another motor I have laying here but what the heck....Aj wanted twin motors for this cruzer some day, why not give hime the option & save the hassle of mounting another motor? Just add another controller.

Acording to the Drive Calcultor, I can wind this motor in a standard 6 tooth LRK & = the resitance values of the original motor configuration, with an 20% increase in copper fill......(remeber how you were pulling 200+amps launching this thing Kim? this is A DUPLICATE of that motor) this leaves 6 teeth on the stator open to wind a parrallel set of coils to be isolated & run witha 2nd contoller.
That gets us back to a motor that is double+ the copper of the original & in theroy the shared controllers should be under less stress......JUst say the word AJ & we will make this a double motor.....or if that is not an option atm we can leave the 2nd set out & not bother till your ready for that level of expermentation.
whadya say?

[Thud]

Oh, I almost forgot.
silicon steel snow flakes:


cookies for speed:


Mrs,Thud is so impressed!.....I am a lucky man.

[AussieJester]

Ryan,
Thanks for the input, I normally am contensious while winding these & have some custom made tools to help me out. This is prolly #15 in my motor winding exploits. Mostly tiny out runners for park flier scale Rc planes. Did a few modifed 540's for rc cars also. I like to build things so this is a natural hobby for me. I'll haev a nice radiused shell of thickend high temp resin to ease the corners. This gives us a pretty good thermal transfer. But outrunners don't have an ideal path of conduction for cooling.

Kim,
re-winding plan:
I was going to do this on another motor I have laying here but what the heck....Aj wanted twin motors for this cruzer some day, why not give hime the option & save the hassle of mounting another motor? Just add another controller.

Acording to the Drive Calcultor, I can wind this motor in a standard 6 tooth LRK & = the resitance values of the original motor configuration, with an 20% increase in copper fill......(remeber how you were pulling 200+amps launching this thing Kim? this is A DUPLICATE of that motor) this leaves 6 teeth on the stator open to wind a parrallel set of coils to be isolated & run witha 2nd contoller.
That gets us back to a motor that is double+ the copper of the original & in theroy the shared controllers should be under less stress......JUst say the word AJ & we will make this a double motor.....or if that is not an option atm we can leave the 2nd set out & not bother till your ready for that level of expermentation.
whadya say?

ThudSTaR I think if you can wind it as per original config but with the extra 20% copper fill it will be fine buddy, one controller hooked up is more than enough for me considering the issues we are having keeping them alive combined with the 2 speed box it will get me in more trouble than Deecanio could imagine i thinkhaha, If you can get a motor upto running at 200amp bursts without frying thats ample for my application for now Thud... Gotta say you have 100 times more patience than me mate, i couldnt of sat there and delaminated the stator, nice work hehe LOL@ speed cookies

KiM

[liveforphysics]

You are a hero Thud!

[johnrobholmes]

And a pioneer. I would like to see the single motor driven with two controllers. As I recall, this has not yet been done on an Ebike.

[Goethe]

Hi Thud!

Damn you are good at squeezing in alot windings to that stator!
You shouldn't get encouraged, I have got good performance from that motor and you could probably even get more out of it!

I recently rewound the same motor in Paralell Y. I´m very pleased with the results, pulling 180A peak and alot of riding around 100A, the motor only gets warm to the hand. It's wound with 9 turns, 1 strand 1,6 mm (1,68 with insulation). KV = 128 and total R = 19 mΩ. At 6500 rpm I got a no load current of 5,5A with standard bearings (including skirt bearing).

The paralell Y is good because it´s minimize the wire length that is not producing torque and you can run the motor with 2 controllers. In that case each controller will see twice the resistance compared with use of one controller.
I'm running the motor at 44V with one Lyen 12 fet controller the only thing I have done is adding 2 more shunts and beefing up the traces. The controller gets barely warm.

What I have learned from winding that stator with thick wire is to measure with volt meter very often, I did get shortings a couple of times. I had to grind the edges of and put insolation paper that wrapped around the edges otherwise I got shortings very easily.

/Goethe

[Jeremy Harris]

Excellent job, Goethe, and really good results. This has really given me encouragement to do something similar when my motors arrive. The low no-load current is pretty good, too, as it's a good indicator of a reasonably efficient wind.

Where did you fit the Halls? Are they inside the motor, between the slots, or outside the motor on a bracket?

I have some thin, tough, Kapton tape that I might use to help insulate the stator from the windings. The last motor I wound with thick wire was a smaller, 50mm diameter stator and I found that winding 1.2mm wire was tough; 1.6mm must be a real bitch to wind tightly, my hat goes off to you!

I've been seriously looking at using some rectangular wire for this next wind. Although it's a bit more expensive I think it might be easy to wind than round for thick gauge stuff, plus I'd get a better fill ratio. Has anyone else tried this?

Jeremy

[johnrobholmes]

The rectangular can be a real pain to work around the corners. I haven't tried it on the outrunners, it just never seemed to work well enough on V shaped slots anyway. Great for transformers though.

1.6mm wire is a royal pain to get settled into the corners. Lots of pressing and pushing with flat wooden implements really helps!

[Goethe]

I can only confirm that the 1.6 really is a bitch to wind! I tried with 1.7 first but it was impossible to get it bend around the corner.

As tools I used wooden spoons and plastic butter knifes to poke the windings in place and to get them tight around the corners. I also wound the wire to a round wooden shaft first so I could pull the wire with enough force. These tools was really essential to get the job done.

Kapton tape could work, the heat transfer should be better than the fiber sheet I used.

I put the hall´s on the outside at an adjustable bracket. First I put them between the slots but IMO it gets to tight for all the wires inside there so I moved them outside.

Thud, sorry if I'm messing up your thread?!

[Thud]

Goethe,
It is impossible to "mess up" my threads I apreciate everyones input.
You wound 9 turns on each tooth? (that is an easy fit with 1.6 ) in rc motor terms I would call that: 18 turn DLRK....if you teminated as your diagram shows. Also you terminated in WYE. & yo are still seeing 129 for KV?
As an non schooled motor builder I hanen't really concernd myself with the finite analisis of the end results....phylosophy has allways been---wrap as much of the biggest wire you can get on the damm thing!...
I am now building motors that are capable of drawing way more current than my controllers can deliver....so its time to get a little more conservative. & trust the math, or learn about in-line inductors to be able to controll some ridiculasly low resistance motors reliably...my head is getting bigger but the more i learn the more I realize how much I don't know. (prolly fill a book! )

My set up for winding is to get the wire lengths off the main spool & loosly coil it into a plastic 5 gal. pail. I mount the stator on an arbor & clamp it into a vice so I can really PULL the wire if needed.
14awg=1.63mm......I didn't think it was too terible, But I was wearing thin leather gloves that let me pull Wire with malice.

The last batch of magnet wire I bought has the toughest coating I have come accrost yet. (rated up to 200c) I couldn't use the asprin trick for removing the enamel....had to abraid the wire to make the connections.

My fiddle sticks for tightening the winds include a cut down nylon prop with the edges all polished & flamed, & wooden sticks (Hard rock maple & ebony drops from my real job).
About Square wire, I think it would fair well but keeping it from twisting as you wind will be a nusiance.
good Idea about the Kapton tape..I have a roll of very thin stuff I will use as needed.

tonight I will reassemble the stator & maybe re-wind it....we'll see what kind of progress I make. I will get it documented & post it here....
The UPS man droped off what i hope works out to be my World Challenge frame today

We'll see if I can build a 18kw power package I can get 15miles on 25ah's...under 70#s....
Alum frame, carbon fiber motor mounts & battery boxes, 20" wheelz full suspension......multi-championship winning rider (with internationl experiance if canada counts LOL )
Hubs schmubs....GET SOME.
Back Later. Thud

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks for the info, Goethe and sorry for interrupting your thread, Thud. I think I'm going to try the rectangular wire, but it'll have to wait until I get back from my post-retirement holiday next week.

This thread is turning out to be really informative, and a great help, BTW.

Jeremy

[Thud]

Mr. Harris,
No Problem what so ever. After all the twists & turns this adventure is taking I am thinking of remaming it "every thing you need to know about re-winding a BlDC motor & more....there is a lot of potential referance info acumilating. I may actually set u the video camera for one of the phase winds just so the tourists can see what it looks like...Not pretty with me shouting explitives when I slip & gouge a knuckle pulling wire LOL.

Almost done with dinner & off to the shop for some fun. Enjoy your holiday.
THud

[Goethe]

I was really proud of my 9 turns of 1.6 mm wire, until I found this thread.....

Is my winding scheme really dLRK?
It is two separate engines teminated in WYE with distribution over two teeth. The maths behind the KV compared to delta dLRK is 2/1,73=1,156, so it´s only 15% faster than Delta. 2 because it's half the turns in series and1,73 for the delta/WYE conversion. My motor with standard 8 turn and KV=130 would get a KV=130 * 1,156 = 150 rpm/V. So to get the same KV I would need to add 15,6% more turns, 8 * 1,156 = 9,248 turns. Here comes the scary part, I have 9,25 turns on each tooth if I count with the connecting wire between the distributed teeth's and gets a KV=129 (measured today).
Feels uncomfterable to get this kind of accuracy....

Ohhh, what a nice and shiny Marine...


/Goethe

[johnrobholmes]

Yeah, it is still dLRK even though you wound it with two sections. It should be twice the KV if you are running each group in parallel with the other side, as compared to a typical dLRK where Aa would be in series with the opposing aA.

[Goethe]

Ok thanks John!

Could you explain what it is in my winding scheme that makes it a dLRK?

Yes I have been calculating with twice the KV. (2*130)/1,73= 150, 150/1,156= 130.

/Goethe

[johnrobholmes]

12 slot 14 magnet winding AabBCcaABbcC is dLRK. Splitting the coils in half doesn't change this, although we could name it something fancy if you wanted.

[Goethe]

I'm fine with the name I just wanted to learn what dLRK is.

/Göran

[Biff]

I guess a more complete explanation might be called for. (This is my understanding, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong)

LRK is really just an easy way of winding a motor that has 6 stator teeth for every 7 magnets (it also works for motors with 6 teeth per 5 magnets). Basically their idea was that you just need to wind every second tooth with one coil that fills up the slots on either side of the tooth rather than winding every tooth so that each coil takes up 1/2 of the slots next to it. Doing this was faster, but there are issues with it. Number 1, it makes the waveform sharper than it would be, number 2, it is difficult to get a really good copper fill using regular winding techniques because the copper sort of blocks off the slot as you get it full and as you layer on the copper it tends to make a bee-hive type shape which becomes difficult to keep the wire where you want it, and Number 3, the thickness of the copper at the end of stator is 2x as thick because you have the same number of turns, but they all go around the same tooth, so you end up needing more space for the copper.

What is commonly referred to as DLRK in the RC groups really shouldn't be called that, it is really just the standard way of winding a stator with teeth:pole ratios of 6:7 or 6:5. Each pair of teeth is wound in different directions with the same wire.

-ryan

[drewjet]

We'll see if I can build a 18kw power package I can get 15miles on 25ah's...under 70#s....
Alum frame, carbon fiber motor mounts & battery boxes, 20" wheelz full suspension......multi-championship winning rider (with internationl experiance if canada counts LOL )
Hubs schmubs....GET SOME.
Back Later. Thud

Thud, I really like that frame, looks like plenty of space for Lithium goodness. What are your plans for drive? Left side, Dual freewheels, swing arm, through the chain, or something else? I really want a dual suspension MTB, but haven't found a drive I like for it yet. Somehow I think you will have something I like on this.

[Thud]

JRH said:

we could name it something fancy if you wanted.

I will be calling these "Congenital twin motors" for the time being

drewjet, I picked that one for 2 reasons....#1 I was looking for Alumn, full sus, round tubes for clampin' too & it was cheap on fleabay & had everything:lol: & #2- it has a huge diamond & standard threaded BB. this wll be a suitble platform for a multi purpouse bike...I may need to fab a swing arm lower to fit my 2-1/2" tires. But I have Aj's motor to re-wind again tonight & a tranny that needs some fittin & anodising ASAP
(I did take the time to lace the rear wheel for this last night, watching the late news) I will show some pics when I have more to look at.
I modded a hub for a southpaw freewheel so I have every option open ATM. Somehow I thought Marin's were made in Marin CA. theres a made in Tiwan sticker on the BB.

The frame is well used but all the suspension points are Nice & slop free. I have a lighter air shock for it also & some chepo 4"travel forks....looking foward to getting this one rolling proper....no more Hoopty rides for Thud!

[Burtie]

Thud,
Looking forward to the results of this re-rewind now that you have the stator lams sorted!
Should perform really well with all that extra copper you manage to cram in

Are you planning to try the internal halls in this one?

Nice frame too! -what model of Marin is it? And why are you planning on such small diameter wheels?

[Thud]

Hi Burtie,
I ran internal Halls in the video above, truthfully I am not happy with all the glueing them in & then not having any adjustability in them....(poke,poke, how is your adjustable timing circute coming BTW? poke) I have some tiny magnets inbound to make a small timing ring to fit the free end of the shaft & will bracket some halls there & see what comes from that. May even allow for few deg. advance on the fly when we want more rpms on the long straightaways.

The 20" wheels are for a road racing setup. I have Pirrelli 16" tires mounted up & plans for a front & rear faring. & a few more drive train experiments to see if we can't "mechanicly" unload a low resistance motor & keep the amps in range of a controller. So far I seem to be able to draw 250+ for too long when hot dogging & the bicycle stuff doesn't hold up....yet. I have a kart clutch & spring set up for an 800rpm engagment....we'll see if it launches alright.
The stuff that will hold up is to heavy to keep me interested....I'll go back to Hydro-carbon fuel & a real motorcyce if I have to ride a 190# vehicle.

Also smaller wheels opens space for my new 3 speed tranny & a proper chain tension/guide set up. & if it looks too goofy we can allways get back to conventional.....I am going for a more Aero-aproach than motard....but that could change any second LOL.

[Ludo91]

Hi,
How did you disassemble the motor?
I have the "new" version of it (big front bearing, almost full size of the can) and I didn`t manage to disassemble it.. I tried to loose up all the screws I could possibly find but no way to open it!

[Burtie]

Here is what I do to take the 80-100 outrunner apart.

Leave the shaft, complete with circlip in the motor, and leave the front plate on, this will allow you to use the shaft to push on the mounting face.

Remove the two grub screws that secure the can to the shaft.
Undo and remove the 4 screws holding the can to the skirt bearing,
Hold the can (not the mounting face) in your hand with the motor mounting face upward and press or bash the bottom end of the shaft on the floor (or on a bit of wood) to slide the can downwards, away from the mounting face.

Remember that the very strong magnets are trying to retain the can over the stator and that there will be friction between the outside of the skirt bearing carrier and the can to overcome.
I actually had to grasp the can in both hands and bash the end of the shaft down on a piece of wood on the floor to make it all let go .

[Burtie]

Hey Thud,

I just checked out the new tutorial at the start of this thread.
-Awesome work man! You seem to have cramed loads of extra copper in there Thanks for taking the time to document it all for us.

After seeing pictures of that beautiful re-wind, I am all fired up to try it for the first time myself.