Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:58 pm

Discharge numbers from today aren't available, except for the Ah (1.191) and Wh (61.32) for the usual trip home from work; that's with me hardly pedalling at all; I've been so worn out walking (more like hobbling) all day every day at work recently that it's difficult to pedal much by the time I'm done for the day. Typical speed home between 15-17MPH (avg on speedo shows 11).

Note that I am a bit uncertain about that Ah figure; it doesn't seem right but hta'ts what I wrote down. :?


Charging numbers from last night:

Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.92V start
28.10V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.969Ah put back in
140.6Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.92V start
27.99V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.558Ah put back in
129.3Wh put back in

So Pack B is indeed still running better than Pack A, as it takes less to charge it back to full. The previous numbers indicating the reverse were almost certainly an artifact of it running all night on trickle charge.


I didn't have time to stop and write down the numbers, and dont' remember them exactly, but I noted a few things while riding now that hte TWM is where I can see it in operation.

First, the typical watts-at-speed for ~15-16MPH is 250-350W. There was unpredictable windiness on both outbound and return trips, so I can't get a very specific reading yet.

Next, the voltage sag on the pack is noticeable at only 2-3A, but reaches 3-5V sag by 7A, and by 10-12A it's over 7-8V of sag. At 19A it's well over 10-12V of sag.


I had an odd problem during the ride a few times, where the motor would not re-engage after braking. Whenever this happened, my brake light was also stuck on, so it was something to do with the braking switches or relay.

Every time, it fixed itself after I fiddled with the switch that I made down on the cable between the front brake arms. After the first two times, I took the button out of the switch (it's a removable/replaceable lamp module) so that the switch cannot be activated, and just used the e-brake switch lever (from Ianmcnally's latest care package) that's wired in parallel with it.

That should've fixed it, but didn't. I ended up cutting the wire from the arm-switch, and that did work. I am assuming there's something wrong with the switch itself, and vibration of a particular type must be causing it to short internally, as there is no other external force that could apply to it to cause it that I can find.

This moves up the schedule for adding that microswitch in place of it, since I prefer to do all the braking in front with my right hand (the ebrake lever is on the left for the rear wheel; currently not cabled up due to the rim problems that wheel has).

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:33 pm

Usage from today, and charging numbers from last night and tonight:

To work:
65.4Wh
1.43Ah
930Wp
20.57Ap
52.25V rest
41.16Vm

To home:
61.2Wh
1.266Ah
878Wp
20.56Ap
51.41V rest
40.62Vm

Last night's charging:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.93V start
28.02V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.95Ah put back in
140.5Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.74V start
28.24V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.747Ah put back in
134.4Wh put back in


Tonight's charging:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.74V start
28.00V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.828Ah put back in
137Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.92V start
27.99V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.735Ah put back in
134.2Wh put back in

Nothing eventful on the ride beyond the usual traffic stuff. I did keep feeling the controller during my low/mid-throttle portions, comparing to the full-throttle portions, and it felt about the same, perhaps 10-20 degrees F above ambient (which was mid-90s) at a guess. It's open at top and bottom, mounted vertically on the front of the stem now, so it gets plenty of airflow even with the cables bundled above and below it. I really ought to get working on the temperature sensors for it and the motor (though I think the hottest days of summer are thankfully past, now).

Oh, and the NiMH seem to be staying cool in the now-insulated cargo pod; they don't feel much above the generally cool temperatures in it. After the ice bottle/etc has been in there a half hour or so, just sitting, before I head off to work, it's about 60F or so I think. It tends to stay about that temp even when it's been several hours sitting at work in the warehouse, even if it's hot back there, thanks to that 1/2" or so of styrofoam.

Ice bottle melts about 1/3 or so by the end of the workday, 6-8 hours, and is still about that by the time I get home 10-20 minutes later. If I park it in the sun at the store on the way home, the bottle goes to 1/2 melted or more, but the temperature stays down there.

Since it cools them so quickly, I can't ride hard a minute, then stop and check the battery andersons inside the pod to see if they're warm; I can't tell any difference between them and ambient in there. Since the rest of the connectors are now outside the pod in the already hot air, I can't really tell a difference between them and the air, either. So I am not sure if moving things around made any difference to the connections, except that it is likely the airflow is keeping them cool now, and it probably won't be an issue that they get warm from (presumably) contact resistance.

novembersierra28

Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by novembersierra28 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:44 am

I must say I read your entire thread and the build, the way it works gives me a few ideas of my own with a bike I own. great build amberwolf, i think the science behind your work is awesome and would give an arm to know what you have gathered about EV's.
good luck with your ride
amberwolf wrote:Usage from today, and charging numbers from last night and tonight:

To work:
65.4Wh
1.43Ah
930Wp
20.57Ap
52.25V rest
41.16Vm

To home:
61.2Wh
1.266Ah
878Wp
20.56Ap
51.41V rest
40.62Vm

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:59 pm

I'm not so sure I am really doing any science, but I do try to keep experiments reasonably organized so that others can follow and hopefully benefit from my results without having to redo them themselves. :) I am already learning the hard way, so maybe others won't have to. :lol:

As for my EV knowledge, I've just been spending a LOT of time reading what others do, and experimenting, breaking things, seeing what others broke and trying not to do that (see, I can learn the easy way, too! :lol:). I've been at it about 3 years or so now, since a bit before I started the Electricle project blog to document my progress. Anybody could do this stuff and learn it, if they have enough time on their hands, especially if they have the need like I have. :) It helps that I have an electronics background, but even that can be learned fairly easily (I tend to skip all the math parts of electronics, and just experiment when I get to that point).

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:31 pm

Today my crazy sister doesnt' seem to have been home at all, so I have had some time to do a few things DGA really really needed, like rebuilding the messed-up rear wheel.

I first tried just retruing it, but I snapped two spokes tensioning things so I decided I'd better take it apart and at least examine the spoke heads. There were over a dozen that looked iffy in sunlight, so I just gave up on that wheel and grabbed my original rear wheel for this bike, which I had had sitting around waiting for a time I could retrue it to fix it's hop problem.

I retrued it pretty well, with less than a paper's thickness of side-to-side warp, and about 1mm of hop in two places that I couldn't get rid of without messing up the side-to-side. Moved the 7-speed cluster over, and the rim strip, tube, liner, and tire.

Then I adjusted the brakes for this rim, which is slightly different than the other one (mm or so greater diameter, and a hair wider). Adjusting brakes on the back of DGA is a huge PITA, because of those side plates. I have holes drilled in them to access the brake pad nuts and the brake arm tension/rebound screws, but getting my hands in between the wheel and the plate and the frame to hold and maneuver the pads in place is very very hard. Taking the plates off would make it easy, but it is hard to get the plates on and aligned unless I leave the whole rack/pod assembled, and then it is too heavy to hold in place while I bolt it and clamp it back on. :roll:

So it took around an hour or more to adjust the pads--nearly as long as it did to true the wheel!

Got them setup so they dont' rub the rim at all unless brake is engaged farther than is needed to engage regen braking via ebrake switch in the rear lever. But...when I flipped the bike back over (it was on it's bars and seat/hitchpost during all the above), the wheel now rubs on BOTH PADS which should be impossible. Even when I adjust the brake cable to it's loosest at the lever, it still does this.

So something is definitely flexing a LOT in the bike frame. I looked hard and long for any cracks, etc, but I can't find any. It may well be just that it does flex that much; I've always had trouble with the rear brakes rubbing sometimes even on very trued rims, under certain conditions, usually with side-loading or heavy loads in the pod or on the rack. It's one reason I often don't even bother with the rear brakes when fixing an untrue wheel, until I'm sure I have the true perfect.

I'm not sure if letting out more cable at the brake arm nut itself will fix it; I'll try that later if I don't think of something better.


Since it was rideable now, and the brakes do actually work, just rub sometimes, then I figured I now had time to do some painting.

Shot of the partially-completed paint, parked in the shade:
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I stripped off all the tape and other crud on the cargo pod, as it most needed the paintjob (especially to change that black lid to something not so heat-absorbing). Then I used an angle-grinder (well, really a buffer) with a wire brush attachment to scrape all the remaining gunk off the box on top, front, left side, and rear. I didn't bother with the bottom or the right side, as you don't really see those anyway, so adding visbility there isn't important.

Another shot in the shade:
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Out comes the white Ace brand primer, donated by a friend, and I coated those sides of the pod, the black bar-end grips on the handlebars, the trailer hitch, and the black turn signal bodies on the bottom of the bar-ends.

Pic in the direct sunlight:
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After that was nice and dry (just hot enough to do that well, plus a bit of wind), I added DayGlo Yellow to the bar-ends and turn signals. I also just dusted the main frame (toptube/downtube) to bring back a little visibility; it'll get totally stripped and redone later once I have clearcoat.

Shady side, in the sunlight:
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I used some pinkish-red DayGlo to the trailer hitch. Then dusted orange DayGlo on the rightside rack panels, and the seattube of the frame.

Rear of bike in sunlght:
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For now the pod is just white, until I find that masking tape I have around here someplace, so I can stripe the front and rear sides diagonally as if it were a barrier sign in broad DayGlo red, leaving white between them. The side will get big lettering for my blog address again, plus a small one for Endless Sphere, and a coat of dayglo orange with yellow trim. The top stays white for reflecting the sun; needs clearcoat.

Side view direct sunlight
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Rest of the bike has to be stripped down before painting it, and I think I stubbed my toe on a tired plant, so I will have to do that later.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:21 pm

More pondering today, this time about a cover for that mess on the bars:
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They're the headlight and instrument cover from the Honda Spree scooter that CrazyBike2's turn signals, taillight, and handlebar controls came from. They were sort of really dark gray, nearly black,
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but as I want visibility, I primered them white for now and will decide which DayGlo color they get later. :)
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The three pieces look about like this when together:
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but don't attach to each other, they attach to the frame on the scooter bars:
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which is welded to them:
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But should be easy to remove. Might not be easy to adapt to *my* bars, which are not shaped the same, but I ought to be able to make clamps that will hold the frame to the bars, and then instruments/lights to the frame.

I am also considering opening up that headlight if I can, and converting it to LEDs shining into the parabolic reflector (I have a few that Icecube57 sent, just waiting for the right way to use them).

THen I can use the headlight itself in it's original place there. I could move the Fusin headlight over to The Velcro Eclipse, along with it's power meter, since that is still a 36V bike, and it will work fine on it unmodified, unlike here on DGA where it needs to be altered to work on 48V.

I have a keyswitch from Ianmcnally that can replace the one in the FUsin unit I'd be removing, and just drill a hole in the back of this headlight unit for it.
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It looks kinda silly right now, just sitting on top of what's already there, but it would sit lower with the "wings" right on the bars if I took the Fusin unit off (and the drink holder, which came off that single-wheel pedal trailer).
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The front piece happens to have a "vent" hole meant for the horn that happens to line up with the controller on the stem, so even if I added more plastic around the stem to cover the back (as there isn't a piece from the "fairing" to do that), then it'd still get airflow up at the top end.

Speaking of horns, I ought to add the car horn back to DGA. I could also use the scooter's horn, but it isn't very loud. Maybe both, so they are discordant and attract more attention. :)

Then I *still* need to convert that old teletype bell into a bike bell, whcih I've been meaning to do for over a year now. :( DIIIING! DIIIIIIING! :lol: (it's pretty loud)

novembersierra28

Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by novembersierra28 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:06 pm

I like the Storm Trooper look you gave it are those 5w LED's out of curiosity?

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:09 pm

Ifyou mean the ones in the Fusin headlight (in 2 clusters of 7), then no; they're just sort-of-high-brightness regular white LEDs. They don't give off all that much light, not even enough to see 20-30 feet down a dark path. In street lighting they're really only good for lighting up reflective signage and for other people to see me by.

The turn signals are incandescent, although I eventually will be replacing those bulbs with LED boards.

The scooter headlight (still mounted on the scooter bars in the above pics) is 25W x 2, according to it's markings. One is a high beam and one a low beam; originally on the scooter those were switched on only one at a time. I tested it on my little 1.2Ah 12V SLA (which needs charging) and it was pretty bright--brighter than all my LED headlighting combined, but it is putting out a ton of heat. It gets hot enough to be uncomfortable to hold in a minute or so, by the time the SLA is sagging so much that the light starts dimming noticeably. I don't know what the actual amp draw is; I have to check that.

If it were not for the power wastage, I'd just stick it on the bike. Well, there are two other problems, too. First I dont' know if the DC-DC can sustain enough current to run it, and second there is not enough depth behind the plastic's front edge to the bar stem to fit the light's connector end. :( The bars are not shaped the same as the scooters.

I may be able to work around the depth problem, simply by placing the light forward a bit over 1/2", but I can't use the frame originally used to aim it and such. I'd have to just gorilla-glue it into the housing.


Off and on today, I have been working on installing the housing and rewiring and rearranging the stuff on the bars to fit in there. There's a few challenges and some compromises, and at least one dumb mistake. :roll: Pics and stuff when I next post, hopefully.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:23 am

As promised, pics (and of course a wall of text in there, too ;) ):

First, I had to cut the bottom piece into front and back halves to go over the stem. Since the back half has one screw hole to connect it to the top piece, and the front half has two, it should still stay on ok. May vibrate a lot; we'll see.
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Then some mockups with everything taken off the center of the bars (can mostly be seen hanging off the bike). The plastic covers are just sitting on there, barely balanced to stay.
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The headlight is just sitting in there; it took about 3 or 4 minutes to carefully let go of it all each time so it wouldn't fall off again before I got the camera. :roll:
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Of course, I can't find the clear cover that goes over the instrument section. I did find the actual instrument unit (speedo, odo, fuel gauge, idiot lights for brights, oil, battery, etc.), which *should* have had the cover on it, but it didn't. :(

Pics during assembly now. First, I decided that in case I want to try running that headlight or some other 12V headlight from it, I'd better put a heatsink on that DC-DC because I'd be running it hard.
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It's off an old Athlon or PentiumII hersheybar style SlotA/1 type CPU. Not sure which one as it wasn't attached, just in the junkbox. :) This gives finnage out to the sides as well as over the top of it, so it will cool better than just the PentiumPro heatsink I found first, which would just barely cover the whole heatsink surface of the DC-DC. I just used a hose clamp to hold it in place (the zip ties were temporary as they are junk, and break the little clips out--can't be used for anything real, just for mockups of stuff). It's pretty tight. I'd've used nuts and bolts to secure it, but I cannot find the chuck for any of the drills right now, OR the pliers large enough to grip the chucks without a key. :( But the clamp holds it really well, and AFAICT it holds it flat.

Next up is the TWM, ziptied to the bars over the stem clamp, so that it stays in the shade most of the time and in theory should be more readable. We'll see. It'll also keep the rain off of it should that happen before I get a clear cover over the hole.
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It'll be replaced with teh CA once I fix it. Also, if I decide to do regen experiments with the WU at teh same time as the TWM monitors output, I have enough space in the window for both.

The controller is hose-clamped to the stem. Since there is some flex in the casing, I added a thick plastic sheet under the PCB, taped to the aluminum, so it can't short out as the clamp pushes the casing agaist the roundish stem.
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THere is a whole bunch of wires that still have to fit in front of and around it, without (hopefully) blocking it's airflow. While it is open on top and bottom, the top plastic cover shoudl keep rain out.

The keyswitch from Ianmcnally was installed into the top left corner of the bottom rear cover.
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Unfortunately that was a mistake, as I totally forgot that the bottom left corner of that DC-DC heatsink ends up where that keyswitch now is.
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So I had to drill a second hole (both holes were done by hand since it's just plastic, using first a utility knife blade to start the center, then my first Unibit that can start small holes, then the next larger that had the right size step in it. Fortunately both of those are large enough to be held by hand and worked with, though it is difficult.
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Powerup test once the wiring was finished:
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I forgot that I had to flip the turn signal switch 180 degrees due to the wires sticking out one end so far that they'd short against the bars, so the turn signals were reversed. Had to change the wiring at the light-end of the signals; easy but annoying.

I also discovered that for some reason the ebrake relay is not working as it should. It clicks, so it's getting 12V power, but it doesn't trip either half of the relay (for ebrake or brake light). I made an easy workaround for the brake light, by hooking it up to ebrake switch output side which hooks to one end of the relay coil (since the input side comes from 12V, and the relay coil's other end is grounded). But something is wrong inside the relay I guess. I haven't tried measuring it, but if I use the needlenose to short across the contacts externally, it engages the ebrake fine. Gonna have to dig thru my stuff for a new 12V DPDT relay. :(

For now, at least the brake light works, and the mechanical brakes both work front and rear.

I superglued some nuts to the inside of the plastic top section, so that I can screw the three parts together without having to hold a bunch of things in place at once.
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Worked out as well as expected; one of the three came off the plastic right after I threaded the screw into it, which is fine since I only needed it to stay in place until I did that. :)

Assembled the casing on the bars/stem, including a single ziptie thru the "grille" of the stem section, holding it to the cable bundles it helps hide.
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I'd say it looks more like Threepio than StormTrooper now, with those wires in the belly. ;)

From the side you can really see it doesn't really hide everything, but that's ok--it's main purpose is to give me more surface area to paint DayGlo for visiblity, with a secondary purpose of hiding the wires and stuff, and giving me a place to put things other than directly on teh bars or on bits of bracket hanging off the bars. :)
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It might be hard to see cuz of the flash, but the TWM is on, and you can also see the now-hooked-up power meter on the throttle. I never hooked it up before because I had the Fusin meter, which is better.
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I also don't remember if this is a 48V or 36V throttle meter, but if it's only 36V I can change the little board out with a 48V half-grip that I got from Methods a while back, which is identical in every way I can see inside and out except that it is not a thumb lever, but a half-grip, and it's marked as 48V. Perhaps I will instead swap the thumb/grip section, if it actually fits like it looks like it should. It would be easier, as then I just swap the entire throttle body, and change the connector on the ends.

As I have no headlight at all (other than my helmet light) right now, I have a little solar flashlight that's fairly bright, maybe 15-20 lumens, with a nice spot, that happens to fit well in a corner of the casing, it's back end tucked among a wire bundle.
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A zip tie could hold the front end down to one of the front screwholes.
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Looks funny, but it's only temporary
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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:38 am

Ok, continued in this post because I can't put more than 20 pics in a post I guess. :?

What I want to do is put the original scooter headlight in it, although I'd rather stick LEDs in there than the incandescent it has. This is what I meant about it sticking out a bit due to internal clearance problems:
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Not so obvious from the front, but it is at an angle:
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It'd actually go inside just a bit more, enough to have the retaining rim inside the retaining lip of the plastic. :)

I also moved the neat reflectors from Spinningmagnets over to this wheel from the Fusin wheel I'd first put them on.
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I like the triplet of them, instead of the usual single or pair. I don't think I've ever seen this on any other bikes.

Because of the way the wheel is spoked, I couldn't put them flat across spokes on the same side, so they all three ended up at an angle, with their leading edges to the left, and trailing to the right.
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This means that while a fully-side-on vehicle might not see them as well, it also means that as they rotate around they'll "flash" toward vehicles' lights that are pointed at them right.


There is still a fair bit of work to do to finalize the new "look", including some wiring changes I may have to make to fix that relay problem.

I don't much like the only place I could put the turn signal switch. It is not within easy instant thumb's reach now, but I have to move my hand a tiny bit to reach it. No way to fix that without using a different switch that doesn't have as big a bottom (switching) section, and that also means it wont' carry as much current, which could be a problem with these incandescent signals (but might not be since the overcurrent would only be momentary each flash). I have a three-position rocker switch that I might use intead, but I don't like the feel of it--it's cheap.

If there is space on the bars for it, I may see if I can adapt one of the EVG bar controls to do this, that I got from GCinDC. But I'm sort of saving those to stick on The Velcro Eclipse once I have the time to adapt them.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by novembersierra28 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:15 am

I saw some garden 5w LED lights that were going for 2.39GBP (5 bucks?) for a pair, they were rated at 12v 5w and were bright enough to see at least 30 feet if not more with.
There's nothing quite like gorilla glue, they called it .. :lol:
amberwolf wrote:Ifyou mean the ones in the Fusin headlight (in 2 clusters of 7), then no; they're just sort-of-high-brightness regular white LEDs. They don't give off all that much light, not even enough to see 20-30 feet down a dark path. In street lighting they're really only good for lighting up reflective signage and for other people to see me by.
I'd have to just gorilla-glue it into the housing.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:29 pm

Thats' an interesting idea for repurposing, but I have enough LEDs already that if I want to build a headlight form them, I can (it'd just need the proper reflector/focuser, which I might get out of the headlight casing for the scooter. Or maybe the HID lens/etc I'm currently using to focus the CFL on CrazyBike2 (which sort of works but not all that well).

I'm tempted to stick the CFL stuff inside the scooter "fairing", with a sort of rectangular semi-parabolic reflector made from plastic sheet with some silver chip-package wrappers attached as the mirror surface. It doesn't have to be the *same* CFL stuff as on CB2, as I have some bar-style CFL bulbs that can be run with the same type of electronics.

CFL would certainly be bright enough to be seen, without using much power--IIRC, about 200mA or less at ~55VDC (19V dc-dc in series with 36V SLA pack). It probably wouldn't really give me much to see very far by, but CB2's worked ok for short-range visibility.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:03 pm

I got a present from Rumped6 today, which is being tested by charging Pack A thru it.
DSC03295.JPG
DSC03295.JPG (40.23 KiB) Viewed 2974 times
It reads about 3-4 watts below the other TWM; I dont' know if that's because of the repairs I did to mine, as the resistor values it has on the divider are different now, or just variation from meter to meter.

I didn't put any connectors on it yet, just stuffed the tinned ends it comes with into the powerpoles.

I'll know more when I compare the numbers at the end of charge. Note that I am not directly comparing (whcih is how I should do it) by seriesing both meters, because I still have the other one mounted in the "fairing" on DGA, and it's pretty inconvenient to put the packs up on a stack of boxes or something next to the bars just to hook it up for charging.

Actually, now that I think about it, if I swap connections around I could use the cable to the cargo pod to charge. I can't actually charge *in* the pod because of the insulation in there--the packs would cook even with a fan on them. :lol:

Speaking of which, this is how I set them up for charge now:
DSC03296.JPG
DSC03296.JPG (50.71 KiB) Viewed 2974 times
fan blows on packs and charger; keeping htem all cooler shoudl extend their life.


Well, I'll see if I can get it hooked up for Pack B charge, with the meters in series for a real comparison.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:19 pm

Discharge nubmers from today:

To work (usual 2.3 miles, no pedalling except a bit here and there for startup, 15-17MPH):
52.5V start
51.18V rest
41.91Vmin
1.615Ah
72.5Wh
907Wp
20.73Ap

To store from work (about 1 mile, same conditions):
50.44Vrest
41.61Vmin
0.658Ah
29.5Wh
867Wp
20.16Ap

To home from store (about 4 miles, same conditions, but now carrying about 40lbs of groceries on the rack and in the pod):
50.39Vrest
40.76Vmin
1.373Ah
59.8Wh
853.1Wp
20.39Ap

Pack A numbers from TWM2 should be up shortly.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:03 pm

Mmm, it's not actually that much difference between the two. About .01V on the resting voltage of Pack B just before I started the charger. Once the charger started pumping it's 3A of current thru the meters, the difference increased to about .05V, but that's so small as to be insignificant for my purposes, although I'm sure it will make a difference in the final readings of each one for Wh.

Measured only thru the new TWM (TWM2):
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.2V start
29.09V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.5W peak charge power
6.44Ah put back in
180.5Wh put back in

Measured thru both TWM1 and 2 in series:
Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
TWM1:
25.46V start
28.83V finish
2.98A peak charge current
88.6W peak charge power
6.781Ah put back in
190.6Wh put back in

TWM2:
25.47V start
28.81V finish
3.00A peak charge current
89.0W peak charge power
6.499Ah put back in
185.0Wh put back in

So they're not that far off from each other, though it seems odd that the Ah should be that much different, in that direction, since the TWM2 reads *higher* current and voltage than the TWM1, yet it's total Ah and Wh readings are lower. Does that mean it's clock is running faster, so that it's "hours" are shorter? When I get a chance I'm gonna have to open them up and see what frequency readings I get, assuming there is a place I can easily measure that.


Oh, and I measured the headlight current running from the SLA; at the 9.8V it sags to under load, the draw is 1.67A. I'm recharging the SLA now to do a curiosity test on how high the current will be at a typical SLA voltage (what it probalby would've been on the scooter), and to see what the sag is with that load on the tiny 1.2Ah SLA.

If I were to use that 1.2Ah SLA to run the headlight on the bike, I'd guess I'd get 30 minutes of runtime at best, and probably more like 15-20. Certainly enough for a work commute or a grocery store run, but not enough for many other trips I'd be making (and it would require overnight recharge of the SLA each time).

For the 12V test, I will hook up the 55V 55A Sorenson and set it to 12.00V, which is what the DC-DC should be putting out, and check the current then. IIRC 2A is the max the DC-DC can put out on either channel, so if it is still less than 2A I could actually run the incandescent headlight from the currently-unused channel of it, at least as an experiment.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:13 am

Checked it with the Sorenson at 12.0V and it was flickering between 1.6 and 1.7A on the Sorenson's meter. On the same HF-clone (centech?) meter I used to check with the SLA, it read 1.89A. I had to bring the voltage up to 13.1V before the current exceeded 2A on that meter, and 13.9V before the Sorenson said it was 2A. So it's safe to test on the DC-DC.

Tested on the DC-DC, and it runs fine, doesn't unduly heat up the DC-DC, either. Right now it's running a 30-minute do-or-die test, with TWM2 between the battery and the bike, controller unplugged from power and ground, so the only thing being powered is the DC-DC.

The DC-DC is powering both the taillight and the headlight. Without the headlight, TWM2 reads 0.06A, 3.8W. With the headlight, it's 0.43A, 23.8W. So roughly 20W battery power to run that 25W headlight. Not too bad, given that it essentially lights up the room:
DSC03298.JPG
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That's a shot of the bike and the wall the headlight is pointed sort of at (actually a couch on it's end near the wall), in an otherwise unlit room.
DSC03299.JPG
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That's a shot from the front/leftside of the bike, again in unlit room.

Now a couple shots with a 100W incandescent about 8 feet away up and to the left of the bike, shining not-quite-directly on the bike
DSC03301.JPG
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headlight still on, so you can see that it doesnt' make all that much difference to the light from the headlight.
DSC03300.JPG
DSC03300.JPG (42.05 KiB) Viewed 2963 times
From the front again.


The plastic casing is off, so it's not exactly a fair test of heating, but so far the heatsink after the first five minutes only got a bit warmer than ambient, just enough to notice. I'd guess it's around 85F, maybe 90F at most, at the warmest part just in front of the DC-DC, where the shortest fins are, closest to the stem (being partly blocked by it). I'll check it again in a few minutes, and see what the total power readings are.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:44 am

OK, I let the test run for a bit more than an hour cuz I dozed off. :roll: I woke up from the dogs bugging me about going out, about 5 minutes past the hour, so I just turned it off as I went past to let them out.

Total was 0.493Ah, 27.1Wh. Not too bad I guess; the motor uses not quite twice that to get me to work by itself, and I have plenty of Wh in the pack for at least shorter trips to do it this way, until I come up with a better headlight solution.

So for now, I kluged the light into the casing:
DSC03315.JPG
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it isn't very secure, but it'll do for a test ride tomorrow morning to work.
DSC03313.JPG
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IN order to make it "permanent" I'd need to rearrange stuff under the casing to be able to pivot the casing down/forward so the headlight could be in teh casing all teh way and still end up at that angle, so taht the headlight wll be effective.


I did give it a quick whirl around the block, and it works ok, is nice and bright with lots of throw (compared to the other lights I've got, mostly flashlights). Tried to take some pics but the camera won't focus because there isn't enough lght, so they all end up like this or worse:
DSC03305.JPG
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A pic of the bike parked in the dim streetlight area, headlight shining at an angle away from the camera.
DSC03309.JPG
DSC03309.JPG (10.14 KiB) Viewed 2960 times
So others can see me by it, too. :)

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:43 pm

Rode to work, then to a different grocery store than yesterday, then home; light didn't fall off yet. :) Will ride around after dark to test it out and see how well I can see with it in street lighting and on the darker canal paths. It is definitely daylight visible, too, to whatever I'm facing, although I forgot to get a pic of that.

Niether light nor DC-DC got very hot, even on the ride home after sitting in the direct setting sun while I was inside shopping for 15-20 minutes or so. Motor was a bit on the warm side, being black and facing the sun. Considering removing the black paint and going for bare aluminum (theoretically that should make it cooler both by better direct-to-air conduction/radiation, as well as reflecting more light/heat away from it from the sunlight). Controller stll gets fairly warm, even kinda hot, especially while on partial throttle and/or current limiting, but it's a lot cooler than when it was in teh cargo pod. Maybe I'll stop blowing up caps now. :)

Gonna have to figure something out for mounting the bottom end of the long front plate, though. When I bottom out the shock on driveway entrances, for instance, it bounces and jiggles the plate around enough to sometimes cause unintended braking if it is in the wrong place during the bottoming-out. :( Gets caught on the noodle and pulls the arms together. :roll: For now I just ziptied it around the cabling at the bottom end, but of course it looks bad (since the whole idea was to help neaten up the look).


Usage figures today:
To work (2.3 miles, 15-17mph, no pedalling):
51.7Vrest
42.46Vm
67.8Wh
1.479Ah
907.7Wp
20.36Ap

To store from work (3.1 miles) 15-17mph, no pedalling):
50.27Vrest
41.4Vm
79.8Wh
1.795Ah
887.6Wp
20.5Ap

To home from store (0.75 miles, 15-17mph, a little pedalling at startups due to the extra cargo weight, about 40lbs).
49.93Vrest
40.5Vm
26.1Wh
58.5Ah
878Wp
20.46Ap


(to be edited in when done:)
Charging data Using TWM2:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.19V start
27.99V finish
2.993A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
6.6Ah put back in
184Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.5V start
V finish
A peak charge current
W peak charge power
Ah put back in
Wh put back in

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by novembersierra28 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:48 am

Totally awesome.... I'm so going to get that exact same setup on my bike with the lights...
what make are they?
I found out that i can use telephone cable to charge at up to 5amps without the cable heating significantly... so that's what i'm using to balance charge every cell i've got in parallel...seems to work ok. I'm almost finished, now need to dab some solder on the terminals to connect them together and that should do it! I'm using telephone cable for everything except the heavy duty stuff now and highly recommend using it

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:21 pm

novembersierra28 wrote:Totally awesome.... I'm so going to get that exact same setup on my bike with the lights...
what make are they?
Well, I don't know what the turn signals are; they're just incandescent turn signal units saved by someone else off of MC's converted to LED signals or other custom lights.

The tail/brake is an OEM LED taillight from a motorcycle; I dont' recall what make.

The headlight and "fairing" plastics are from a 1980's Honda Spree scooter. (the turn signals and taillight from that scooter are on CrazyBike2).

I think if you want this type of stuff, you can use *any* of them that you are willing to make mounting hardware for; they all run off 12VDC (well, really they'd be better at 13-14V, as that's what the battery voltage would really be on most vehicles).


They're all being run off a 12V DC-DC converter Icecube57 sent me. There is a pic and model info earlier in this thread some place.

Keep in mind if you use incandescents like these, you're going to use up a significant amount of your pack power running them.
I found out that i can use telephone cable to charge at up to 5amps without the cable heating significantly... so that's what i'm using to balance charge every cell i've got in parallel...seems to work ok. I'm almost finished, now need to dab some solder on the terminals to connect them together and that should do it! I'm using telephone cable for everything except the heavy duty stuff now and highly recommend using it
Is that the solid-wire stuff or stranded? If it's solid, keep in mind that vibration will work-harden the copper and break the wires, usually at the connector end or wherever it is soldered into a board/etc.



Rest of last night's charging data for Pack B is lost; my crazy sister disconnected everything and moved it to the other side of the room for some reason she can't explain. :( At least she didnt' try plugging it back in. :roll:

Hopefully it was after they were charged; I don't know; they weren't hot but she'd left the fan on them so they could've cooled off by the time I went to check. I decided it would be safer to just run them today as if they were, then recharge tonite normally.

I've been testing using no pedalling when possible partly to do the tests, and partly cuz I've been so very tired from work lately. Especially by the time I get off work, my legs hurt too much to pedal, although by the time I get near home, I'm about ready to start pedalling to work out the kinks. If I have time sometime I should ride around for a while afterward just to do that.

Oh, I didn't note this before, but just so anyone reading takes it into account, the headlight/taillight/turnsignals run off the DC-DC arent' included in the usage data, as they are connected to the pack prior to the wattmeter (need to change this).


Today's ride data:
Work (2.3 miles 15-17mph, no pedalling)
52.18Vrest
42.71Vm
1.508Ah
69.2Wh
953.4Wp
20.57Ap

Home (3 miles, same as work)
51.04Vrest
41.69Vm
1.546Ah
64.5Wh
868.3Wp
20.44Ap

Charging data Using TWM2:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.8V start
28.17V finish
2.99A peak charge current
89.1W peak charge power
5.292Ah put back in
149.7Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.78V start
27.97V finish
2.99A peak charge current
89.1W peak charge power
4.865Ah put back in
137.7Wh put back in

Apparently Pack B did get fully charged before she unhooked everything. In fact, it seems odd but Pack A appears to have needed far more charge vs B than usual; I'm not sure why.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:47 pm

The headlight hasn't fallen off yet. ;)

It's still held on by only the wires and the single ziptie up top, plus the plastic lip at the bottom. I keep not having time to deal with rearranging everything under the plastic to make it fit (probably a couple of hours if I am uninterrupted, trying different 3D arrangements of stuff to fit things in, as well as doing a few rewirings and such I've decided I need.

1: I want to wire up a little backup battery to the wattmeter, with a "reset" toggle switch in a not-easily-accessed location (so it can't accidentally get turned off), that disconnects the backup battery from it both to reset it and to keep from running down whatever battery I end up using for the purpose.

2: I need to replace the ebrake relay so I can have regen braking back. I miss it a lot; it works significantly better from >10MPH than my brakes do.

3: I want to change out the LED board in the throttle for the 48V version.

4: I want to move the DC-DC (lights) to the load side of the powermeter, so I can track *all* the power usage of the bike, because right now I can only see motor/controller usage.

5: I need to take the plastics off to paint them DayGlo yellow (like the bar-ends are), and clearcoat them (still gotta get the clearcoat).


Today's discharge numbers:
Work (conditions same as last time)
1.433Ah
65.9Wh
42.92Vm
52.12Vrest
939Wp
20.67Ap

Work to bank across street, no pedalling, 1/8 mile, 15-17mph but lots of really hard accel/decel in "5 o'clock" traffic:
0.281Ah
12.8Wh
42.48Vm
51.58Vrest
902Wp
20.55Ap

Home (same conditions as last time)
1.132Ah
50.1Wh
41.67Vm
50.51Vrest
871Wp
20.1Ap

Charging data later.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:56 pm

I screwed up and fell asleep after Pack A charged, so I don't know what Pack B's actual charge data is. I put down the readings anyway, but keep in mind that it kept trickle charging for several hours after finishing, which Pack A did not, so the numbers are out of whack relative to each other.

Charging data Using TWM2:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
25.66V start
27.9V finish
3A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
4.896Ah put back in
137.6Wh put back in

Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
25.8V start
28.04V finish
3A peak charge current
88.3W peak charge power
5.455Ah put back in
153.6Wh put back in

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:26 pm

Discharge data from today; a longer trip than usual. To work trip the same, but since I got out early I met a friend for lunch, then went to some grocery stores for sales and a looksee at some thrift stores, in places they're clustered together close enough to walk between or just pedal across the parking lot. Total trip almost 14 miles with motor use, probably 1/8 mile without turning the system on between places.

Except for the work trip, I pedalled fairly normally, which means not a bunch of effort but some, usually in the highest gear for most of the runs. I didn't know exactly how far I'd be going in total, and didn't want to run out of juice heading home with possibly heavy cargo on the bike if I found interesting stuff or a really good sale on food somewhere. Turned out I needn't have worried, but better safe than sorry. :)

Even at the 100F+ temps, with the decently strong winds (10MPH+) that I was headed into for just about all of the first leg of the after-work trip, and parts of the other legs, I didn't get very sweaty despite pedalling.

To work from home: 2.3 miles, no pedalling, 15-17mph.
42.69Vm
52.05Vrest
1.591Ah
72.2Wh
945.6Wp
20.75Ap

To first stop from work: 6.15 miles, normal pedalling, 15-20MPH
40.65Vm
49.79Vr
2.865Ah
128.4Wh
879.2Wp
20.49Ap

To second stop from first: 2.9 miles, normally pedalling, 15-20MPH
39.46Vm
48.82Vrest
1.519Ah
66.4Wh
843.2Wp
20.35Ap

To home from second stop, 2.54 miles, normal pedalling, 15-20MPH
39.17Vm
48.19Vrest
1.096Ah
48Wh
816Wp
20.29Ap

I went at faster speeds because I was on roads with faster traffic for longer periods, and I try to stay at the limit I'm allowed when I'm in that situation; it does seem to reduce conflict from impatient drivers a little bit (though there are still many that are obviously still impatient even though I am not holding them up in any way).


Interestingly, with the scooter headlight (which is always on if the bike is on) and fairing on there, even in daylight I have had significantly more drivers that are facing me or seeing a frontal view of me coming pause or even wait for me to pass before just exiting a driveway or turning across my path in some fashion.

With any other light, I generally do not get more than perhaps 1 in 20, probably even less, to do so--typically they just go, figuring they have plenty of time, even when they do not.

I suspect that the headlight being a regular headlight style/etc., plus the shape of the fairing around it, is giving them an oncoming motorcycle impression, so they are pausing due to the speed at which they've been trained to expect from those, rather than that of bicycles.

I'm going to pay close attention to this type of reaction to actual motorcycles vs bicycles (other than me) for a while and see if this is indeed happening.

I'd be curious to see what happens with other ES members in such a case, for those that are using something resembing a motorcycle headlight and plastics on the front end. Perhaps this is a way to make us (bicycles going significantly faster than what other people expect) slightly safer in some situations?

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:44 pm

Charging data; this time I charged them simultaneously, monitoring PackA thru TWM1 and PackB thru the WattsUp (as Hachi chewed off one of the wires to the Multipole connector on one end, after my crazy sister moved stuff around again, leaving things on the floor where the dogs think they are toys. Fortunatley the connector itself and the meter were not chewed on, just the wire, but I decided I"d be redoing all teh wires on it anyway, so took the Multipoles off and just used it bare-wire end into the small Powerpoles on batt and charger, as I have been doing successfully with the TWM2 so far).

I do not yet know what the discrepancy between the WU and the TWM might be, but I will test that later and if there is a difference than that can be used to refigure the info below.

I guesstimated the time it would take to complete charge, and managed to get back to them about 4 minutes before end of charge, so this data is from right after the green lights came on and the chargers shut off except for trickle. Total time to charge was about 3.25 hours.

Charging data Using TWM2:
Pack A (2/3 of the 36V pack):
24.46V start
28.48V finish
2.96A peak charge current
88W peak charge power
9.369Ah put back in
260.9Wh put back in

Using WattsUp1:
Pack B (1/3 of 36V pack plus 12V pack):
24.67V start
28.21V finish
2.95A peak charge current
87.5W peak charge power
8.725Ah put back in
243.5Wh put back in

Assuming the difference in numbers is not due to a discrepancy between WU and TWM, then the significant (0.6Ah or so) difference in recharge could be from the stronger 12V half of Pack B, or from the long trickle charging Pack B got last night. I suspect it's a bit of both.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:06 pm

Now for some less boring stuff, and more pictures. :)

I started yesterday afternoon on repainting, then while that dried started taking apart the handlebar stuff last night but dozed off too much, then continued this morning on doing some of those changes above. Pics of the paintjob near the end.

After the repainting, the first was to change out that little throttle voltage monitor board from 36V version to 48V.

While in there, I figured it would be helpful to take some pics of both boards so that I or others can figure out the changes needed to alter one to a different "LOW" setting, etc.
DSC03331.JPG
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dsc03331a.jpg
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I haven't tried drawing up the circuit yet, but there's two TL431's on there, presumably it's using them as the voltage references for FULL and LOW.
DSC03329.JPG
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I suspect that the resistors on the reverse side are what's being used to set the point at which the LEDs turn on and off.
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After removing the 36V board, I pulled the 48V board from a half-grip throttle I'd gotten from Methods:
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It, too, uses the TIL431s
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and resistors
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but is a different arrangement of traces and components. I do not know if it is the same "manufacturer" or if there are a whole bunch of clones of the same thing out there.

This is both of them side by side:
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36V on top and 48V on bottom
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One thing I did note is that the power wire to the 36V board was soldered across both of the two leftmost pads at the upper right corner of the PCB. I suspect but have not tested that this might change it to 24V or to 48V by soldering only to one of them.

Another thing I noted is that it has TWO ground wires, both to the same pad (rightmost pad in the pic, on both boards). I don't know why; perhaps it prevents false readings?

Right after installing it into the throttle and putting all the stuff back on the handlebars, it occured to me that a much better place for it would be in the main fairing next to the other instruments (wattmeter, right now). :roll:
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Oh, well, next time I work on it, maybe. :)

The pic above of the wattmeter shows the full power just sitting with the DC-DC and the headlight/taillight running. It's a lot, but acceptable.


I also replaced the ebrake relay, using a 12V SPST relay salvaged from a dead TV set's degaussing circuitry. The brakes are now wired so that the ebrake switches (rear in handle, front on brake cable) are wired in parallel, with one side to 12V from DC-DC, and one side to the top of the relay coil. The brake light is also connected to that point. The bottom of the relay coil is grounded. The relay contacts are wired to the ebrake input pair on the controller.
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So when a brake is engaged, 12V is connected to both the brake light and the relay coil, which closes the ebrake input on the controller, engaging regen braking.

Can't see much in the pic, but the relay is there, wrapped in electrical tape to prevent a short of it's pins to anything. The ebrake plug is just to it's right, for size comparison.


I moved the controller down to the headtube; there was no way I could fit it on the stem and still have the headlight fit. The wires are bundled so that they will experience as little stress as possible from turning the bars while riding.
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If I can I'll build a bracket that will hold that front vertical plastic to the bottom front piece under the headlight, and then mount the controller on that. Then it'd be all attached to the bars and fork, not the bike frame, and can all pivot together. For now though, this is all I can get done.

I still can't close it all up yet; I'll need to either move the DC-DC from right above the keyswitch, or reduce the heatsink size. Might be no problem with that, as it doesn't get really hot, but does get fairly warm. I'd rather keep as big a heatsink as I can. If I have to I'll change to one from an old Pentium Pro, that should fit fine but will only be 1/3 the size (and surface area).

It does look a lot better now:
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the headlight is fully contained in the housing. The front plate is mounted (via ziptie :)) to the reflector mount on the fork, so ti won't interfere with the brakes anymore.

When I painted the plastics, I also decided to do all the bar controls the same; brakes, gripshifters (except the rubber grips), and throttle. It looks a lot better this way; more integrated.
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The headlight is aimed a little high, but I can't lower it any further without either modifying the back end of the headlight, where the wires come out of it, or cutting on my stem (which is probably a bad idea :lol:). The headlight's back end sits right at the point of the stem's handlebar-clamp bolt.

More pics and stuff in a bit.

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