Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:43 pm

That wierd 9C noise has gone away for the last several days, so like an idiot, I am leaving it alone until it does it again (at which point maybe it will just explode or something instead).

Rode around yesterday a little, about 10 miles worth, but didn't take much note of any data; was just having fun mostly. Got a cheapie used fork for the new cargo bike design, and maybe some rear shocks if I don't end up able to use the Manitou fork for that.

Today I went for some more groceries and stuff that's on sale right now, and ended up with so much (around 80-85lbs) that I had to wear the backpack and use my "new" (but quite used) folding bag for the rack. Pardon the distorted colors, the pic was too dark to see the black bag so I had to process it:
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I should have brougth the trailer, but I hadn't planned on getting that much. There was just a lot of clearance and other stuff I didnt' want to miss out on, which saved me a bunch of money I won't have to spend later on regular priced versions.
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Whle riding I had the yellow vest (wadded up on the chair behind the white plastic in the first pic) wrapped around the bag to make me more visible, plus wearing another one (draped over the backpack as well as myself). Then the cargo pod was also full.

For cold stuff I couldn't fit into the insulated cargo pod, I wrapped in this metallized bubble-wrap saved from one of our live-plant deliveries at work. The empty bag that was on teh rack is at the far end of it in the pic.
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The bag flattened, folded, and zipped into itself for easy storage, along with the wrap folded up (whcih only packs down half as well as the bag) and sitting on the cargo pod lid.\
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I don't have full data becuase I noted it all down in the PDA, but even though I just charged it two days ago, and have not used it but for a couple of hours yesterday, plus half an hour today, it died between the time I took it off the bike and the time I sat down to type this up. :( So all the data including actual speed and mileage/etc. is lost. I noted down what I remember of it, but that's not a lot.

The first part of the trip was just the usual to-work trip, so I could get my schedule for the week (couldn't get it by phone because there were too many customers for them to have time to tell me anytime soon, and I had to go up that way to the store anyway). That only took around 1.2Ah, as I wasnt' in any hurry so I only went 15-17MPH instead of the usual 20, and I was pedalling a little, since it is kinda nice out and I didnt' have to worry about being sweaty when I get to work, etc. That shaved about 0.3Ah off the usual amount. :( Typical 2.2 miles.

From work to the store was also kinda toodling along slower than usual, and pedalling a little, and it took about 27Wh. Negligible regen of something like 0.01Ah / 0.5Wh. This is around a mile.

From the store to home I only pedalled to help startups because of the really heavy load, but the rest I did at normal 17-20MPH speeds with just the motor. This is about 3.5 miles. It was something like 2.9Ah, but I can't even remember the Wh, maybe around 90? Regen I recall about 0.02Ah and about 1.1Wh.


The only really bad part of the trip was the crossing of 35th Avenue, which apparently they're about to resurface. They have roughened it all up so much on both north and southbound sides that it is like riding over 2" gravel and rock for the bumpiness, with even deeper ruts here and there, except for not skidding in it. It wasn't too bad going *to* Fry's with only part of my load picked up, but it was horrible coming back from it with the rest of my shopping load now on the bike. :roll:

I seriously thought my shoulders and spine were going to be ripped off, with some of the bumps, and I was just creeping along trying to keep from breaking anything in the deep grooves and stuff, having waited until there was no traffic coming for quite a ways in order to do it slowly like this.

Just before the trip, I had also just aired the tires up again, from the ~50PSI they'd dropped to back up to around 55-60PSI, which is what I have to use to keep from squiggling around on the road with such heavy loads. That didn't help a bit with the roughness on that part of the road. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:19 am

The noise started back up on the wheel, and I had to retrue the rear wheel a bit, so I thought I'd real quick just true the rear and open the 9C to check it's bearings, etc.

Well, the truing went ok, didn't do it real well just a basic.

Didn't see or feel any bearing issues, nothing rubbing inside, no magnet/stator contact, etc.

Decided it would be interesting while I had it apart to try the GM stator in there form the Icecube57 9C/GM hybrid. That should be quick, too right? Just stick it in, bolt it on, wire it up and go? Well, that took a little longer because all combinations I tried (via spreadsheet) didnt' work, every one just juddered.

Figuring maybe I'd messed up the controller, I decided to put the 9C stator back in, and it too did the same. Dangit. PRobably fried controller.

Took the EVAssemble controller that I know worked with it, and it does run but not normally--it is REALLY rough and slow and will not keep going if I put my hand on the tire. :(

Great. Now I don't have any working motors/controllers that are setup on DGA, and the Fusin is half installed on TVE. :(

I went back thru all the combinations again on the EVAssemble controller and 9C as originally setup, with no luck. I think I killed the halls in both of the stators, maybe. Probably ESD since I was not grounded at all, and the dogs were wandering around occasionally brushing against me.

I'll have to test them with the LED tester tomorrow, but right now I'm gobbling some dinner while I type this, and then I need to try to sleep. If I can't sleep and I'm not so tired and out of it that I can't concentrate, I'll finish a basic hacked install of the Fusin on TVE so I can at least ride it to work tomorrow. Otherwise I'll have to just pop a regular front wheel on DGA so I can ride that one unpowered.

Dangit. :(

This is why I know I should never mess around with things that still work, cuz I end up breaking them. :cry:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by John in CR » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:16 pm

That's why on my main ebike I've never touched the motor since installation in Dec '08. The most I've done it to twice verify that the axle nuts were tight, once after about a week and once after a few months. These .5" dropouts aren't the clamping type, but the uneven surface of the dropout made from doubled up .25" steel combined toothed face of the nut and the tight fit on the axle have ensured they won't come loose.

I only recently went to regen braking, and just in time, because high speed braking requiring front and rear engagement for about 10k miles has finally worn out my rear brake shoes, so I can put off removing the wheel for a while longer. I need to get a couple more bike running first, and then decide what mods I'm going to make to Big Blue while I have her down for servicing.

Those 9c bearing are real crap, so definitely change those out while you have the motor open, and swap out those 16ga phase wires. Even at lower power they're pretty shotty and rated for only 22 max amps in chassis wiring and 3.7A for power transmission.

John

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:59 pm

Thanks--I may just do the wire swapout.

Just before I finally passed out last night, I also noticed another possible issue with the covers themselves, which might be the source of the odd noise I have been hearing intermittently, but probably isn't. There is a circular defect in the outer side of the cover just about even with the machining line for the bearing recess on the inside of the cover.

It's really hard to see in pics, but I'll try:
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I cant' really tell if it is a crack or what, but it feels like one and I do not remember it being there when I started out with this motor.
It is not a full circle, either. It gets "taller" at one side, and vanishes into the surface at the other, like a crescent moon.
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.

I am so tired right now I have to take a nap, but will try to post more when I wake up later, before i go back to fixing the problem (if I can).

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by John in CR » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:28 pm

That just looks like an imperfection in the machining from when they cut the holes for the bearings and the lip that locks into the magnet retaining ring. On both of my covers the cast aluminum blanks seemed to be mounted on the lathe slightly off center and/or the cast piece was of inconsistent thickness, which made both covers quite out of balance. I had to remove quite a bit of material to balance them. No imperfection would surprise me with these motors, but at least no one is getting motors that appear to have been under water like I heard of a shipment of Xlyte motors.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:37 am

That's pretty bad. Perhaps the ship was taking on water and the water-bailing didn't get to that compartment in time. :lol:

Regarding the cover defect on mine, I don't think it is a machining mark, mostly because I don't recall it being there to start with, and from what I can tell it appears to fault thru other machining marks, indicating it happened after the machining was done.

Based on assembly processes and order, I am going to guess that this part of the cover wall is machined pretty thin, as it isn't physically doing much besides keeping the bearings from slding out the sides under normal vertical loads. When they install the bearings, if they are a tight fit they probably use a mallet or a hammer to get them in there, and if they hit it hard enough to force the bearing to smack against that thinly-machined part, it could easily have made a fracture right at the stressable point where the cut squares out to the bearing's OD.

Once that fracture is there, then side stresses on the wheel woudl exacerbate it. There are more side stresses on DGA than many bikes, because it is heavier, and because the off-center load of the heavy cargo pod with batteries/etc in it cause me to ride slightly tilted all the time, which will induce mroe side load into the bearings and the wheel cover, as the wheel pulls against the axle.

I need to find my magnifiers to see if I can set the camera up to take a good picture thru them, or at least to see it myself closer than I can with my aging eyes that seem to need bifocals. :roll:


I was so tired when I got home tonite that I fell asleep not long after, and I did not get anything done on checking/fixing the wheel. I'm still wiped out and expect to doze off in the middle of reading or posting, perhaps a few times, so I don't think I shoudl try to work on it right now, and I also have to work early tomorrow, but I get home earlier, too, so I may have time to deal with it.


I did do one quick check, and that was to put a meter on the halls and verify that htey all switch as expected as the motor spins. So the halls aren't bad, and neither are their connections to the controller.

That leaves something in the phases, which includes both the wires from stator to controller and the FETs in the controller(s).

Boy am I hoping for a wiring problem!

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:50 am

Regarding the defect around the bearing recess/axle hole, it is actually a casting fault; it's flashing from the mold. When I examined it closely, I noticed the bloody obvious area that has it machined away, while the rest of the surface that still has the defect is just oxidized aluminum, as a cast surface appears. Dunno why I didn't see that before. :roll: But it isn't a machining defect, except in the meaning that it wasnt' machined off. :lol: At least I can stop worrying about that part now.


I didn't get as much done as I wanted, due to still being so tired that I took several involuntary naps, both at the bike troubleshooting and at the computer when I sat down to eat something and let my mind wander away from the frustration.

It does not appear to be a problem with the motor itself. Originally this was purchased as a repaired motor, and it had a (very good) repair right at the axle outlet hole of the cabling, presumably by Lyen. However, I've not been as careful of that repair as I could be, especially at a couple of narrow-space bike racks I lock up at, and some of the insulation has been damaged here and there--not enough to expose wire AFAICT, but enough to worry me with the problems I'm having. So I removed all the insulation, unsoldered the repair, removed the internal remainder of cable in the axle and wheel, and fed the remaining cable back thru from the outside to the internal connections.

I also changed the simple lap-solder that 9C did to install the phase wires to the coils, so that the phase and coil wire strands are lapped and interwoven, rather than just each separately twisted compact and then each tinned and more-or-less parallel-lapped to the other. Much better mechanical connection, which won't require solder to hold it together should something ever go wrong that heats it up enough to melt solder (I hope not!).

Retesting after this finds no difference in the problems.

On the Lyen controller, I get stuttering and shuddering, even with teh original phase/hall color combination. (everything lined up except B & G phases swapped).

On the EVAssemble controller, I have two combos that result in a very noisy forward motion, one much faster than the other. The first combo is 1:1 color matched, and the other has the halls shifted by one, Y-B B-G G-Y and phases matched.

The first combo spins up faster and faster as throttle is increased, then at around 70-80% (I think) it suddenly slows down again.

The second combo spins up normally and appears to reach full speed for 36V (no speedo on the test stand) at no load, but it is VERY noisy, kinda rough grindy sounding. Much worse than the noise problem I started out trying to find and fix when I broke things, but VERY similar in sound.

I am too tired to try it with the other motor, as my hands are very klutzy right now--I'm having to almost hunt and peck to type this to get it readable. :( I suspect that the other motor will sound the same, and that I have blown up the controllers somehow. :(

Maybe more testing tomorrow, or maybe I will just spend the time putting the Fusin back on DGA for now, as my knees and muscles are really unhappy with having to pedal with zero assist. Day after tomorrow I have to be at work two hours earlier than the rest of the week, so I won't have as much time to fiddle with stuff before trying to sleep, and I'll be less capable of pedalling well that morning, too.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:47 am

Was considering putting the FUsin back on DGA but remembered that I had not fixed the rim yet, and the rear brakes on DGA are still not very good just because I don't really have a true rim back there, and because I have a really hard time getting to the pads to adjust them right because of my cargo pod/rack design.

So I decided to leave it on TVE for now, and was going to just hack it all together so I could have an assisted bke to ride to work tomorrow, but that didnt' work out so well either.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 98#p322998
After that, I decided that this weekend I will try putting it in a 24" rim and stick it on CrazyBike2 to get it up and running again real quick
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 99#p322999
Then I can take my time fixing DGA and/or bulding that new bike, etc.


I also got the bolts I needed for the terminals on those TS60Ah cells, so now I can build that up into a 32V pack, and use it for whatever I get running, if I need a lot of power or a lot of range, but not a lot of speed. Still have to make the intercell connects and stuff, but as long as I don't destroy them due to no BMS yet (still building that, too), I ought to be able to do some serious power testing with them.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:20 am

Ok, I fixed the problem with the 9C / Lyen 6FET. Turns out to have been an I D ten T error, in my redo of the motor phase/hall wires. :roll:

What apparently happened is that somehow I mixed up the blue and green hall wires inside the motor itself, when I was redoing them to remove the splice they had at the axle exit point. This meant that even though I "knew" the combination for this set of motor and controller, it would never work, because it wasnt' actually right.

I only figured it out after actually going thru the combination chart, then when I hit the working one, it was correct *except* that the blue and green halls were swapped. At that point it became obvious what happened. I wasn't working with bright enough light when I did the motor wires, and obviously couldn't tell the difference between them at least for the moment it took to mix them up while soldering to the hall pigtails inside the motor. :(

Anyhow, I also retested it with the 36V EVAssemble controller, and verified it works there, too. I don't know why I could not get it to work with any combination on that one before; I must have had some other connection problem at the moment I tried the right combo (or during all testing).

In addition, I've now tested it ok with a Methods 100V 18FET that I just fixed tonight (3 more bad FETs, blown when I was experimenting with ti after my first FET replacement on it, just figuring out the combination of wires for the Fusin on it, months ago).

I also tested it ok with a now-fixed 12-FET Infineon from Ianmcnally, which had had melted shunts (!!!!) and blown main powerfilter caps, from having been connected to power in reverse, I think.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 24#p307024
I pulled the two 1milliohm shunts out of an old fried analog brushless controller (also from Ianmcnally, I think?) that I probably won't fix for a long while. I don't know if they are even close to the right value for this Infineon, but they are all I had easy to get to right now. :) THe caps were two 470uF 63V caps, and for the moment I used a single large cap of 820uF 200V, which has the big fat pointy-blade leads. It wont' fit on the board normally, so I wired it in instead. I'm sure I have a better replacement somewhere, but this one should be fine for a while.


I decided I would put the 6-pin JST(?) style connector on this one and on both the 9C 2807 and the 9C/GM1000W combo, for the halls, to begin standardization of my controllers to all one kind of connector so I can just swap them right out. I also put the wires into the connectors on the motor side in the order needed to be able to just plug into an Infineon already wired with this type of connector, as the Methods 18FET already was.

I'm doing the same thing with the phase wires, which will for now use Anderson PP45 simply because they're already on the Methods 18FET, the 9C/GM1000W, and the 12FET from Ianmcnally, and because I have a few I can use for the other side of those connections. I dont' have any extra bullet connectors, just a few on various dead controllers, and they are all the not-so-great kind of bullets, more like the automotive wiring-harness type. The color of the Anderson shells will match whatever the controller end is, for that mtoro's correct combination, so I can match the Anderson color and ignore the wire color, between any motor and any controller.

The idea will be to be able to swap out motors and controllers effortlessly, wherever possible, to get things going again as fast as possible, no messing around with figuring out combinations. :)


Now I need to go see if I can find anything else I have around here that either has that same 6-pin JST(?) male connector on it, so I can fit them on all the controllers (except the FUsin, which will only be used with the Fusin motor). I will need to find one for the Lyen 6FET controller and one for the EVAssemble 12FET; I've got them on the generic 12FET and the Methods 18FET.

So now in theory I have three "spare" controllers, though really only two--the Methods 18FET is going to go on CrazyBike2, driving the Icecube57 9C/GM1000W combo motor, once I figure out a safe way to lace it up in a crappy Huffy-bike steel 24" rim with the spokes I already have from some other wheel.

Then I need to go strip the braided shield off the outside of some old coax cable to make myself the jumpers between 10 TS60Ah cells to power it with. :)
Last edited by amberwolf on Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:14 pm

It is indeed the JST connector, in this case the JST-SM series that I'm thinking of.
http://www.jst-mfg.com/product/detail_e.php?series=238
Seems to be a 5-pin that's standard on ebikes.ca's motors. I've seen at least two controllers now that use the 6-pin instead, though one used a male and the other a female, both used basically the same wiring pattern (5V red, Gnd yellow, green/gray/brown for halls, black unused). That is what I've adopted for now, or will if I find more of the male end (hollow with pins sticking out, rather than block with holes and sockets) in my various salvaged electronics to use on the motors, and female to use on the other controllers.

Ianmcnally included a few unused ones with new pins for them in the last box of stuff, and those will be very helpful in converting the Lyen controller and 9C 2807 over. The Fusin I'd like to also change to this style, so that should something go wrong with either it or it's controller, I can use something else on whichever bike ends up with it (probably The Velcro Eclipse) to still commute with should it end up as my only working system at the time. (what with my pondering and experimenting, I am always breaking stuff that should last forever. :lol:)

I've been messing around with CrazyBike2 trying to find a rim and spokes to lace up the 9C/GM for much of today, so I haven't yet put the 9C back on DayGlo Avenger and done a road test with it--I really need to do this, to make sure it works normally. Before I do, I'll be converting the Hall connector to the JST-SM series on the Lyen 6FET, just in case something goes wrong. :)

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:39 am

I have not gotten back to DGA since the Undead Race. I need to put either the Icecube57 GM/9C motor on here (once laced into a wheel) or one of the Fusin hubs, so I at least have a motor on it, as my two main trailers only work with this bike. I mean, I can always move the 9C back to DGA from CB2, but then CB2 has no motor, so....


Am undecided on exactly what to do; if I had spokes that fit the 9C/GM motor and any of my rims, I'd put it on here, but so far I don't have any that will work. Still looking for bike wheels I can pull them from, but none found yet.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:25 pm

With the really cold weather we're having at the moment, which is also really windy, I've been pondering stuff and possibly will be getting DGA running today/tomorrow.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 90#p348490

It's likely I'll be putting the 36V Fusin motor on DayGlo Avenger, but running it off the Lyen 6FET controller and using the non-freewheeling gear carrier from a 48V Fusin, along with the wheel/rim/housing from the 48V motor, so I can get regen braking (I kinda got used to that).


I've been pondering various non-hub drives on DGA, but none of them work without frame modifications of one sort or another, the least invasive of which is to use a rear frame from something else bolted to the dropouts of this one via the BB crankshaft, and fix teh seatpost of that one to this one by clamping a piece of tubing from each one to the other. That would then give me the entire rear triangle plus a little bit to stick a motor and batteries and stuff in, as well as then leaving the whole right side of that area clear of a derailer so I could then put the rightside cargo pod on (like CB2 has).

It'd be nice to also add rear suspension at the same time, but that complicates things, since all of the methods of doing this I want to use require adding brackets or gussets of one type or another to the original DGA frame, which is aluminum and thus I can't weld to it.


Also thinking I may start building the Fusin 48V system onto that white/black/green Nishiki bike, and possibly at first use the 36V Fusin motor as it's core (since the 48V motors themselves aren't currently working, AFAIK). Since the only 48V packs I have are pretty large (the 2x 24V NiMH and the 48V Vpower) then I'll need to come up with slim panniers to hold the batteries. Preferably something that looks really nice and matches the frame itself. As its' not meant to be a cargo bike, they'll probably be just barely big enough to hold the batteries, charger(s), and controller. Also probably they'll be using a rear rack off that tan Mongoose MTB to bolt to, which gives me a place for a backpack for work uniforms and stuff if I have to use it as a commuter bike.


So...still sitting with all the dogs around me keeping warm, pondering instead of doing anything. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 am

Finally, the DayGlo Avenger rides again. :)
DSC03931.JPG
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I did as I thought in the first part of the above post, and put the 36V Fusin core into the wheel/case from a cooked 48V version Dogman gave me at the Undead race. It's running off the Lyen 6FET, connected using some of the Anderson PPs I got from Veloman, for the phase wires. Since they are only black and red, I used all black on teh controller and all red on the motor; I just go by the wire colors themselves to match up.

The halls I used the JST connector harness I had lap-soldered to the Icecube57 GM/9C motor (still not in a wheel), and lap-soldered it to the hall wires on the Fusin. I really need to get some more JST 6-pin connectors and pins, both male and female.
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Hooking halls and phases 1:1 actually worked perfectly...backwards. :( Of course, it couldn't be quite that easy, and I found at least three perfectly good combinations for running it backwards, all with low current draw, before finally finding a forward-running version:
Phases and halls are the same:
Fusin Lyen
B G
G Y
Y B

For the battery, I used the still-un-re-packaged Vpower pack, for 48V 20Ah (well, 18.something Ah minus the dead cell removed to fix it). I just packed it with foam tightly down into my cargo pod to keep it from bouncing around during the test ride--below is before I packed it in very far (so you could still see it).
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It works well enough, although at 48V it's going to get kinda hot if I push it hard (like i did in this test), in summer. Max speed after about 15 seconds is 24.4MPH, vs the ~18-20MPH at 36V.

I did a quick top off of the Vpower pack before the bench testing,(but I didn't let it go very far on balancing, which could take a long time with this BMS) and after that it was down to 55.27V just before I headed out.

Ride stats measured using TWM1:
55.27V start
50.02V min
53.33V rest after ride

23.30A peak
1187W peak

0.988Ah
50.6Wh
(~40Wh/mile)

1.265 miles
24.4MPH max
15.7MPH avg
4m 48s trip time

I rode as hard as I could on the motor, no pedalling, full throttle from every stop until I got to max speed, probably at max speed for only a few seconds at a time before having to slow for a stop sign, riding around the neighborhood. Longest stretch at max speed was about 25-30 seconds or so, on the narrow divided Butler road with a car just far enough behind me to not be honking at me for not going 30MPH like the limit signs say.

Battery and BMS were cold, though TWM1 was kinda warm (from the shunt, I guess), despite the cold 60F (or less) air flowing over it. The Lyen controller was cool, but not cold. Motor case was about room temperature, and after a few minutes of sitting in the house afterward as I noted down TWM1 readings, the axle was kinda warm, so definitely the motor was probably getting hot inside the casing. Perhaps I should work out a ventilation scheme for one set of covers, so I don't have to worry about cooking this motor hauling cargo in summer, assuming it's still on DGA by then. :)


Works pretty well, with the exception of the terrible mileage at 40Wh/mile. :( I'm sure at lower speeds and some pedalling it'll be a lot better. I wonder how much of the poor mileage is due to bad aero from being upright, vs semi-recumbent like CrazyBike2?


Tomorrow, weather permitting, I'll be using DGA to haul a dog or two to visit the store, maybe hauling a bag of food home on top of the kennel trailer, too. Then take it back out to visit the Humane Society's thrift store to pick up a used kennel cage for Nana if they have one big enough and cheap enough.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:58 pm

All went far from well. :( Dog problems, and then bike problems, leading to either a blown motor or controller, I dont' know which yet. :cry:

First I had lots of trouble with the dogs being all stirred up because my crazy sister came home last night again and again and again, wandering around the dark house with a flashlight (instead of turning on lights), except when she was about to leave each time, when she would turn on every light in every room and then leave the house. :roll: She must've come and gone even more times after I finally got to sleep near dawn, as the dogs were still very agitated even when I was getting ready to leave with the empty trailer for a round-the-block test of it's new wheel position an hour or so ago.
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Because of that, I had problems with both Loki and Fred (at various different times) running out the front door when I opened it to take stuff out to the trailer/bike in the front yard to tune things up. I was going in and out a fair bit for a while, and usually when I do that they just all go out in back to play, or lay down for a nap, with Bonnie "guarding" the front door laying across the threshold. But this time, those two kept waiting until just the right moment then dashing out, running around in circles in the street and yard, then running back to the front door scratching to get in. Very strange. Neither would come when I called, either.


Anyhow, back to the bike: I got it all ready, then after a bit of a struggle got Hachi to get into the trailer (she didn't want to this time, which was strange, too, she usually loves to get in there although she doesn't always like the trips, due to noises and bumps and whatnot). Her jiggling the trailer around getting in knocked the bike over a couple of times to it's right side, but not all the way to the ground as it was held up by the hitch. Definitely still need to make parking brakes for the trailer wheels; I keep forgetting to do that. :(
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Headed out, pedalling about half of the effort, motor on about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle, just enough to help me move the trailer and get started. No problems, no unusual motor (or other) noises. Then at the first stop sign, slowed down, stopped, waited for cars to pass and leave me a big enough gap to start out, and pulled out. Halfway across the street, the motor just cut out. I pedalled over to the curb on the other side, parked, and checked for wiring problems, loose connectors, etc. Wasnt' the battery because the lights were still on, power meter registering the usual draw on those, etc.

I turned it all off and back on, and now the motor would start a little but grindy and only a partial turn before it stopped. I turned it back off and lifted the front wheel off the ground, and turned it backwards by hand to force the planetary to turn the motor itself, and I could see the Power light glowing briefly on the throttle lights, meaning that the motor is spinning and at least one phase is getting power back to the controller to let it rectify that and feed power back to the battery bus.


Since I was not even 1/8 mile from home yet, I just turned around and pedalled back in lowest gear (I can't start it going any higher than that, with that load and my knees). Hachi was pretty happy about that, yipping all the way, and nearly ripping my arm off yanking on the leash to get back into the house.

I took the trailer off, rechecked wiring, tried the Hi/Lo voltage input switch I'd installed on the Lyen 6FET in both positions, no change. I watched the meter while trying to throttle up the wheel off the ground, and I get over 12A even on a brief blip of throttle. :( I'll have to go back and troubleshoot later; I'm too tired and disappointed right now, because after the several hours of problems even getting started on the trip, it's now too late to try a trip with Hachi (or one of the others) out and about. I won't have another chance for at least a week, maybe two or three.

And it started out such a nice day, too, all sunny and warm and a tiny little breeze. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:12 am

I havne't gotten back to the motor/controller problem yet, but I was donated this heater element from a dryer, which has one broken coil, and the three remaining coils gave me an idea....
DSC03948.JPG
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If I use the non-FW version of teh Fusin planetary, or if I put the 9C or the 9C GM on DGA, then I can use regen braking again to save wear and tear on the pads...but if I end up using the Vpower pack on here or the older small NiMH, I may not be able to safely put back into it the regen currents I could expect out of the motor, from high speeds.

Either that, or the higher pack voltage will prevent me from getting good enough braking out of it to help much.

So, I could use plug braking, with a relay or something to switch between controller and plug coils. Some people have used wire wound around their frames to dissipate the heat from this. What would the dryer elements do in such a situation? I haven't tested their resistive effects under a motor load yet, but if they are low enough resistance, they'll certainly act as a brake. One coil for each phase. Just directly switch the motor over to them instead of the FET lines from the controller when braking.

Ideally I'd want to PWM the plug braking, so that I could control how much braking I get out of it, rather than an all-or-nothing effect that could be so strong that it causes me to skid in some situations. But that gets complicated, so I probably wouldnt' end up doing it, at least not at first. (maybe not ever).


Anyhow, it's a thought. :)

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by texaspyro » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:14 am

Are you sure that's from a dryer? It looks like it has a standard wall plug on it, not a 220V dryer connection. Not sure how much power it can take...

Hmmm, how about using a hair dryer? Small, compact, already packaged, sucks a lotta watts. Point the nozzle forward for more braking action. :roll: Or a popcorn popper? You'll have a tasty snack when you get to where you are going. George Forman grill? Hot dog cooker? Peltier cooler/six pack. Wow! the possibilities are endless. Regen... it's not just for braking anymore!

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:08 am

Haha. :)

It is definitely from a dryer; a friend replaced this heater element in his clothes dryer, and thought I might be able to use the remains of it. He also replaced the thermal cutoff switch at the same time, so I have that, too, but I rpobably wouldnt' use that on the bike. Anything getting hot enough for that to work would have already become garbage by the time it did. :lol:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:45 pm

Well, it looks like the Fusin problem is likely easy to fix, and probably caused by Stupid Installer Syndrome. :(

I didn't see any problems with it at first, physically, and figured the easiest way to test if it was motor or controller would be to flip DGA on it's back next to CrazyBike2, and test the Fusin on one of the two controllers already on CB2 that have the same connectors (none of the rest of mine do yet, as I don't have any more 5 or 6 pin JST's).

As soon as I flipped it over, what had somehow gotten past me completely became painfully obvious:
DSC03950.JPG
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The motor spun out in the dropouts, which I guess means that the 36V motor on 48V has way more torque than I'd given it credit for, and trying to pull me, the bike, the trailer, and Hachi was more than the torque-arm-less dropouts could take, so they spread just a bit and the motor spun a little.
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Enough to rip thru the very thin hall wires, and damage the insulation on (at least) one of the phases, but apparently not short anything out.
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It's hard to see even in the sunlight I took the pic in, but you can see two red wires in the pic, and the leftmost one is the motor end of what's left of the hall power line. The black (ground) is also ripped apart, as are at least the blue and green (can't see the yellow one). Gotta open it up and check the halls and whatnot, but suspect they're fine.


I haven't verified the controller operation with CB2's motor yet, but I suspect it is fine. I will first try to fix the wires on the Fusin (actually I'll transplant some from one of the other two, probably, since these are already too short anyway), then retest it with the Lyen 6FET. If it doesn't work then I'll retest with CB2's motor and controller.


The SIS is because when I went to undo the nuts to take the wheel off (first turning the axle back the right way with a 10mm wrench), they were barely finger-tight. I guess I must've gotten distracted at the end of the installation, and never actually wrenched the nuts down. :roll: I feel really dumb. :(

Anyway, now the torque washer is rounded inside, so I'll need to drill and file out some actual torque arms for it, before I try this again. I guess I needed to make them anyway, so now is my chance to start learning. :)

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:38 pm

Felt moderately well enough today to fix the Fusin above, and give it a quick test ride around the neighborhood (after being VERY VERY sure I tightened the axle nuts this time :roll:).

Upon opening the side cover, I found only the red hall wire (V+) actually broken, though several had twisted so far that insulation was stretched past the breaking point, and possibly had broken conductors inside.
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I cut them all inside the hub and pulled it out of the axle, then peeled away the obviously twisted outer cover (which doesnt' show in any pics, so not shown here), revealing how badly twisted the whole mess was:
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I cut away back to the point the red wire was broken (formerly the axle exit point), re-fed it thru the axle, and resoldered them all. Note how cold-solder the original phase connections appear.
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The only thing I didn't put back exactly as it had been was the string tie-down; I retied it but one full loop left out due to insufficient length of string, and being unable to find my roll of the stuff I have around here for tying harnesses down.

Now that the already-too-short harness is about 4" shorter, I had to put the controller down on the fork leg for now. I don't have enough Andersons or another JST-XH contact set to replace the cable on either one, so at some point I will just extend the cables on the controller itself, desoldering at the PCB and then interwoven-lap-soldering the new wires between the PCB and the old wires for phases and halls. For now, it functions ok.
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As I haven't made a torque arm or washers yet, I just used my 10mm wrench and a couple hose clamps, on the non-wire side:
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This should at least insure normal usage doesn't rip the wires apart again.

I test rode for 1.607mi, riding time of 7m 2s. Max speed was 21.9MPH, but it takes forever to get there (15-20 seconds; I lost count each time due to watching out for kids playing all over the place, as they tend to just run out in the road with no warning). Average speed was only 13.574MPH.

I basically held full throttle all the time except when slowing or stopping. Didn't pedal except a couple times to try to get started faster when trying to see what max speed could be, after riding the first mile or so.

The test used the Vpower pack that's been sitting with teh BMS connected but nothing else, since the ride that broke the Fusin, just three days shy of a month ago.

54.2Vstart
53.01Vrest
48.57Vmin

965.1Wp
19.39Ap
1.448Ah
72.3Wh

Battery Current is still limited by the Lyen 6FET's programming, which I had set to 16A, IIRC, to protect the NiMH packs I was using then. I could reset it to 36A to test the Vpower pack at 2C, but I don't know what that would do to the Fusin, or the torque arm wrench. ;)

My only problem with using this wrench as a torque arm is that apparently I don't have any other 10mm wrenches. :( I thought I did, but nope. Plus this one is actually a teeny bit loose on the axle, probably because it is a cheap Chinese toolkit wrench (from a HF kit, IIRC, given to me for a birthday some years back). So I hope I don't break it, as I kinda need it for fixing things. Lotsa stuff on bikes needs a 10mm.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by John in CR » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:59 pm

Such fond memories of the days before I used 1/2" or thicker steel for my dropouts...not. I'm sorry you had to learn the hard way too.

I'm going to try my other Fusin finally (the one that slipped the clutch on it's first ride over 2 yrs ago), but as a mid drive and scrap the housing.. I'm rigging the gear reduction I picked up to use several different motors, and I've been wanting to try that raw motor at high voltage with fat phase wires and about a 6:1 overall reduction as a simple RC-like but hall sensored drive system.

Once I graduated from using a 3/8" open end wrench and grinding it out to fit the axle flats perfectly, and then bending the wrench to perfectly fit the frame, the next stage was my one and only torque arm that is on my other Fusin motor. All others have been fabricated into the dropouts.

This is 1/4" plate cut to fit the dropout area of the AL bike. Then I added a smaller 1/4" piece before cutting a slot with the angle grinder to fit the axle flats perfectly. Last I welded the arm across the slot to fit the frame for a perfect fit hole type torque arm make of 1/2" of steel held on and in place by the axle nut. I had plenty of axle on that side and added a 2nd nut for security. The flats had some ridges at the threads, so I actually had to smooth it down with a file to get the torque arm on. Sorry about the rust. I never got around to prettying it up after making sure it worked, so it's been on the bike since. I'll trim a lot of unnecessary steel off that inner plate too when I take it off for painting.
Fusin steel torque arm.JPG
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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:35 pm

John in CR wrote:Such fond memories of the days before I used 1/2" or thicker steel for my dropouts...not. I'm sorry you had to learn the hard way too.
Yeah, well, I *knew* better already but I didn't double-check my nuts. :roll:

I have meant to make torque arms for all the motors for a while, but since nothing ever broke I naturally put it off until too late. ;)

I'm going to try my other Fusin finally (the one that slipped the clutch on it's first ride over 2 yrs ago), but as a mid drive and scrap the housing.. I'm rigging the gear reduction I picked up to use several different motors, and I've been wanting to try that raw motor at high voltage with fat phase wires and about a 6:1 overall reduction as a simple RC-like but hall sensored drive system.
That will be interesting to see, and may be useful to borrow ideas from for my own hub middrive plans.

BTW, if you end up not needing the Fusin housing, I'd be interested in it as spare parts for mine, if you dont' keep it for your own. Especially if it's a rear, as the threaded side cover would be helpful for the middrive stuff I currently have planned.

Once I graduated from using a 3/8" open end wrench and grinding it out to fit the axle flats perfectly, and then bending the wrench to perfectly fit the frame,
Hmm...I'll have to see if I have any extra 3/8" wrenches; I forgot that's the size just under 10mm. Unfortunately I don't think I do, so I'll end up just making the arms correctly (or as pinch dropouts), most likely.

Although I haven't seen any failures of wrenches used this way, so far, I'm sure there are some I've just missed.
This is 1/4" plate cut to fit the dropout area of the AL bike. Then I added a smaller 1/4" piece before cutting a slot with the angle grinder to fit the axle flats perfectly. Last I welded the arm across the slot to fit the frame for a perfect fit hole type torque arm make of 1/2" of steel held on and in place by the axle nut.
I have plans on making pinch-dropouts based on yours for all the bikes eventually, once I have time. Time, the eternal shortage of which I constantly experience. :(

I'd probably use a torque arm just about exactly like the one in your pic if I had a rear Fusin, but mine are front motors, with too little threading left on the freewheel side nub of the cover to support the pedal freewheel cluster properly. I have ideas on fixing that, too, using the freewheel thread section off a regular rear bike hub bolted to a left side cover used on the right side, but it's another thing I have to get around to. Plus the axle isn't long enough, AFAICR.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by John in CR » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:01 am

That housing has a giant bearing in one cover, and a number of big rectangular holes between the spoke flanges on the central part. That was the one I was going to try ventilating a geared hub and never got around to. I can't recall what I did to the clutch, but it stopped the freewheeling too, so not really any parts there. I'd want to hang on to the planetary gear set as a spare for the other motor.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:04 am

So after having a sudden problem with CrazyBike2
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 41#p374541
and needing DGA to go to work this morning, I rode with almost no issues there and back today.

The Vpower/CammyCC pack hasn't been recharged since the last post about it above, jsut about exactly a month ago. I have no power readings from the trip itself, or starting voltages, etc, as I did not have time to undo a wattmeter off the chargers for CB2 and hook it up on DGA before leaving, as I barely had time to air up the flat rear tire on DGA and get to work. Oh, and move the turn signal flasher over from CB2 as I still don't have a second one for DGA. (can't find the one I had planned to fix and use, haven't had time to build another one).

Resting voltage when I got home was 53.2V. After it finishes charging (monitored by the LS-CA on CB2 and the WU1), I'll post that data, which will give some idea of power usage today.

I did have the VeloAce PDA on there, so I do have trip info:
19m 1s trip time
21.9mph max speed
14.833mph avg speed
4.729miles trip distance

The one serious problem I had is that near the end of the homeward-bound leg of the trip, I could feel some wierdness while starting up from a stop, worsening each time, so I did my best to help out by pedalling, but my sprained ankle and bad knees didn't allow much. It turned out when I got home that the 10mm wrench being used as a torque arm isnt' hard enough, and it is spreading open, and the axle rotating within it.
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You can even see notches in the open end's jaws from the axle working against it, I think. Not sure.

The other side (wire end of axle), with no torque arm:
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It hasnt' actually spun in the dropouts yet, but it's only a (very short) matter of time before it does. Definitely have to make a real torque arm for it before I ride it again. :shock: :( I didn't really have time for this, especially since I also have to figure out what's wrong with CB2 and fix THAT, too. :roll:

But it's either that or end up ripping the wires apart in the axle AGAIN, possibly destroying teh controller in the process too, this time (got lucky last time).



So I guess I know what I will be doing tomorrow (friday). Probably also Saturday, instead of going to either the FreakBike Nation ride in the St. Patrick's day parade or the CAZbike swap meet. :cry: (had hoped to make it to both, if I could get up early enough)

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:38 pm

Charge data from LSCA:
4.23Ah (At charge finish, green light first on)
4.826Ah (After a few hours of balancing)
273.36Wh
52.9Vstart
59.6Vfinish
4.09Ap

Charge data from WU1:
As expected, the WU1 was reset probably by the high charging voltage *or* by the BMS cutting off battery power from it after charge finished, I still don't know which for sure. So all readings are presumed to start after balancing begins and charge ends.
0.450Ah
59.41Vstart
59.56Vfinish
19.6Wp
0.33Ap

There are some anomalous CA readings, too. The CA is still mounted on CB2, and it is not moving, since it's sitting right next to DGA against the walll charging. Yet it registered some distance, speed, etc. readings. I verified it was cleared before beginning.

At a guess, since the SA version's shunt wires and speed sensor wires are intertwined, perhaps if the sensor is open (with the magnet not near it) it is sensitive to strong electrical noise, like fast switching RF noise in a PSU output. If this is the case, then it's possible that when the BMS on the Vpower pack cuts out at end of charge (HVC) then the Vpower charger is left floating on it's output. THis would mean that if the Vpower charger doesnt' really have enough capacitance to flat-DC-filter it's own output (as it probably expects the battery to do this, it would make sense), it could have significant tiny spikes in it, perhaps sufficient to induce noise into the speed sensor line.

Anyhow, the readings are:
643MPH max
252MPH avg
0.630miles
00m 09s total trip time

If i did the math right, that means that something like 30,000 pulses came in on the speedo sensor within that 9s, probably in bursts given the low average. Noise from the charger is the only thing I can imagine causing it, since this has never happened in any other situation so far.


I have however read recently of someone else that had an insane max speed show up, but I cannot find the thread right now. I've linked this post to the CA version 2 thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 15#p374815
and my LS-CA review thread,
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 13#p374813
in case anyone sees those and knows what thread it is to link to that, too.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:07 pm

After sitting a while with the WU1 attached but nothing else (except the BMS) it's down to 58.9Vrest.

Half-seriously considered welding the wrench to the axle end of the Fusin, but I can't really undo that later, so....

Looked thru my stuff and found a piece of 1/4" steel plate from the back of an office chair that I think I once intended for a seat mount or something, but I'm very likely to take a chunk of it for a torque arm, starting with the existing small bolt hole in it and filing that out to fit the axle as perfectly as possible. If there's enough of it, I'll make two, one for each side, just in case.

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