American Made Lithium Battery Packs

[lester12483]

We sell lithium manganese battery packs that are made by AllCell Technologies in Chicago, IL USA. They are high quality batteries that we use with our electric bikes.

We have 36V and 48V battery packs available for purchase on our website.

So if you need a lightweight lithium battery for your electric bike and don't want to deal with China, buy your packs from us. We have had very positive feedback from our customers. Delivery time is now 5 - 10 business days.


http://www.chicagoelectricbicycles.com/Batteries.html

[Jeremy Harris]

Interesting, it seems they are buying cells from China and putting packs together with a novel way of keeping the cells cool they've come up with. I'm not sure their thermal management system is really needed for a low power ebike pack, but they seem to have come up with a neat way of fitting cylindrical cells together, all the same.

A point that does worry me though is this load of cobblers, taken straight from their ebike web page:

"Over 80% of electric bikes produced today are powered by either lead acid or nickel metal hydride batteries. While lithium-ion’s higher cost and safety concerns are the main causes of its low adoption rate, the result is significantly heavier e-bikes that have low power and a short range. Of the e-bikes using Li-ion batteries, lithium polymers are the prevalent choice. However, these chemistries sacrifice power, range, and cycle life for safety."

Either they are way, way, behind the curve when it comes to ebike power packs, or they have just done a cut'n'paste job from another site without checking if the data are up to date and correct.

Another slight worry is that they play heavily on the lithium battery safety aspect, something that we now know is already over-stated and subject to a lot of hype.

I'd be interested to see how their prices compare to someone like Ping, though. If they can make a product as reliable as his, with the same level of good customer support, for a price that's comparable, then that has to be a good thing.

Jeremy

[dogman]

Unfortunately, professionals write the ad copy again..... Even more unfortunate, no easy way to buy anything, no price list etc. So no way to get one for a test easy. Have to email and ask, please sir, can I have just one?

I can definitely see the desire for thermal management on larger packs for cars. Thier solution for it looks nice to me. But I can scarcely see the need for much of it on a 36v 10 ah bike battery. No telling even what chemistry or c rate from what I read either.

[grindz145]

Their market isn't ebike enthusiasts though, they're gearing toward OEM sales. Kind of a bummer but it makes perfect business sense. It's what's lacking from China much of the time; a fully designed/tested product. I hope to see more like them around.

[lester12483]

I have two 36v 10ah lifepo4 batteries. One from Ping made in China, and one from AllCell made in USA. The Allcell battery better in my opinion, it's lighter and easier to get. They can make batteries in 1-2 weeks time.

Their price is a little higher than Ping's. You would have to call for a quote, but being local their service and support makes up for it. I am glad to see an American company getting a foothold in a China dominated battery market.

[liveforphysics]

AllCell builds lithium (Lifepo4) batteries at their facility on the south side of Chicago. They build fantastic batteries. On par if not better than Ping. They also have excellent customer service.

So if you need a custom lithium battery built and don't want to deal with China, buy from AllCell.. Check it out !


http://www.allcelltech.com/

I sat through the all-cell sales rep meeting last month.

Here is the scoop.

They don't make any cells, they don't have equipment to make any cells, or any plans to make any cells.

They make a wax and carbon material for round cells or pouch cells that is machined to enclose them or fit between them, and offer structural support, and a unique temperature buffer due to the latent energy needed to melt the wax. It takes up space, adds cost, and would actually extend the useful lifespan of crap low-C cells through keeping temperatures in ideal ranges.

It would be neat for a laptop pack or something, or if for some reason you had selected an 18650 format cell that you really wanted to use (maybe retardation? ) for a low-power ebike application, and didn't mind adding a sizable amount of expense to the pack.

[Jeremy Harris]

I have two 36v 10ah lifepo4 batteries. One from Ping made in China, and one from AllCell made in USA. The Allcell battery better in my opinion, it's lighter and easier to get. They can make batteries in 1-2 weeks time.

Their price is a little higher than Ping's. You would have to call for a quote, but being local their service and support makes up for it. I am glad to see an American company getting a foothold in a China dominated battery market.

How much is "a little higher than Ping's"?

Being assembled in the US isn't an advantage for me, or any of the large number of ES members outside the US, I guess, so there'd have to be some compelling price or performance features of this pack of Chinese cells assembled with a novel form of thermal management to make them worth looking at further. I can't see anything on their website that's definitive enough to make me look further at their products, just some stuff that's out of date and distinct lack of technical information of any useful value.

Jeremy

[neptronix]

I got all excited for a second thinking maybe a company in the USA actually makes batteries.

Heavy, extremely safe, and expensive version of a cheap Chinese product... Just like how the NA market likes it.
Not me..

[dogman]

Since you have one of the bike batteries, fill us in with the battery specs? Similar to the ping pouch cells I suppose. How hard is it to buy one?

[slowlane]

Ask this company how US Patent 7,851,092 will effect "investor relations" . Posted patent topic on Jan 18 , a little ahead of the news curve for battery tech , its real , genuine made in America tech savvy .

[auraslip]

Their market isn't ebike enthusiasts though, they're gearing toward OEM sales

Is anyone else bothered how all the government subsides go to battery companies that aren't actually selling batteries except to huge multinational companies?

Imagine if the government subdies came with a clause stating they must sell to small time users. If the subsidies made ordering batteries from an American company cheaper or comparable to ordering from a Chinese company, the EV market would explode. The price of lithium ebike kits would drop, and as economies of scale kept rising they would continue to drop. Dudes would be opening shops around the country dropping batteries into junk yard GEO metros. Kids would get electric scooters when they went away to college.

Instead the subsides focus on getting 1 million electric "sedans" onto the road by 2015. Screw that. Even with subsides no one can afford all the batteries that go into making a car that directly competes with an ICE car.

I call this "trickle down lithium," and I think it's a backwards and an anti-capitalist way of doing things. Flood the market with cheap batteries, and an industry will grow organically.

China already has millions of electric vehicles on the road(mostly ebikes), and all they did was subsidize batteries instead of oil.

[liveforphysics]

Since you have one of the bike batteries, fill us in with the battery specs? Similar to the ping pouch cells I suppose. How hard is it to buy one?

They don't make cells bro. They make a wax+carbon holder for whatever off-the-shelf 18650 cells they select to use in their packs at the time.

[auraslip]

There should be a law against tech brochures like this: http://www.allcelltech.com/images/AllCe ... re2010.pdf

[liveforphysics]

There should be a law against tech brochures like this: http://www.allcelltech.com/images/AllCe ... re2010.pdf

Did you find a false claim or something in that brochure? They don't ever say they make cells or batteries, and their product really does work to keep cells effectively cooled and held at an even temperature.

[auraslip]

I guess I think of this as more of a tech brochure http://www.power-sonic.com/images/power ... une_22.pdf

[CamLight]

I guess I think of this as more of a tech brochure http://www.power-sonic.com/images/power ... une_22.pdf

Ahhh...that's a data sheet, not a brochure.

The AllCell document, IMHO, is a classic brochure. Just marketing material (the brochure's main, and arguably only, purpose) and a broad overview of the technology involved. The data sheet just comes in when you need the specs.

For us here, it's the specs that count and we're technically proficient enough to read them. But, for the vast majority of other people, the brochure is the important document. If they read anything at all.

[Jeremy Harris]

For us here, it's the specs that count and we're technically proficient enough to read them. But, for the vast majority of other people, the brochure is the important document. If they read anything at all.

This is the thing that really winds me up with salespeople. The first thing I want to know when I hear about a new product is the technical specs, not some hyped-up marketing spiel.

Any company or salesperson that isn't completely up-front with hard, verifiable and trustworthy technical data about their product, but instead makes you work hard to try and derive information from marketing BS, or is just plain evasive, immediately gets me suspicious. We've had a few battery sales people on here from time to time that typify this behaviour...........

Jeremy

[cell_man]

I personally think it is quite a good idea they have. They are able to get the best performance out of fairly low performance cells using their packaging method. There are some not so bad documents that I downloaded from the site that seemed to back up their claims. You can't really knock them for putting together a descent website and push a bit of marketing spiel to get some sales. Not everyone is an Electrical/Electronic Engineer, so they need to sell to the less well informed and unfortunately a bit of a BS is the norm, so they are just playing by the rules IMO.

[Gordo]

We are finally getting somewhere on this subject. The first thread contained arguments that they really were making Lithium cells in the US. This of coarse is factually incorrect. The tiny matter of using cheap Chinese cells to make an "American Battery" is finally agreed upon by all. Kind of like putting a turd in a ziplock and claiming s**t don't stink.

[dogman]

I understood that the cells are made in china, I just wondered what the c rate was for the bike battery in his possesion. I'm guessing 2c most likely.

Sure would be nice if cheap lifepo4 caught up some with cheap lipo. No doubt there are reasons a123 costs so much more than 2c pouches, but wouldn't it be nice if relatively cheap 10c lifepo4 pouches hit the market?

Re the subsidies, Every ebike owner in the US should be getting a $1000 tax credit to buy a battery. Look at all the oil we don't use. Way offsets our china purchase. Benefits our trade balance and carbon footprint a whole lot more than buying a prius. If you got a tax break for buying a new furnace or fridge, why nothing at all for buying an ebike? Stupid. A tax break like that would jump start the consumer battery market in a big way.

[slowlane]

The latent heat method of cooling has a US patent , don't have the reference , just recall of interesting details . Within patents is technical info not readily available elsewhere , such as Springer / pay for papers site . Not always .

If I recall correctly this patent details thermal barrier of pouch cell wall materials , the reason for heat accumulation . Also within this classification (maybe its this patent ) is the chemistry of pouch cell gassing . Its a solvent leaving the electrolyte ( LiFePo formula ), results in a cathode coating causing a permanent 25% capacity loss . Applies to the specific brand tested (?) .

I read a ES thread talking of slitting pouch and taping shut . Claimed no further battery damage , worked fine . Don't recall if the coated cathode causes further heating because of increased resistance .

[miro13car]

American made batteries?
Lifebatt manufacture batteries, all range of them from Taiwan-made cells.
Don Harmon can for sure confirm this.
MC

[lester12483]

The cells are not made in China!!

From what I was told the cells are made by Panasonic in Japan.

[dogman]

Well that is interesting and important information. Panasonics would be likely to be nice cells. Even if the actual factory was outsourced to someplace other than Japan, the bosses would make sure quality was up to the standards they insist on.

Now all we need is an easy way to buy em.

[lester12483]

Thats the thing. Allcell is a company and we are just indivduals. Im sure they get bulk discount rates we cant get.