NEW FR-DH E-Bike project >3Kw

[panurge]

Hi guys

I'm new in this forum and in the E-Bike world but have years of bike frame projecting-construction experience and near me artistics welders and designer.

Before I start explain the topic-subject let me say sorry for my bad engl. and thanks to all who post here, I read a lot of topics before deciding to write and was an exciting-learning experience.

The project is to use a well tested strong&light DH-Freeride handmade frame to make an Electric fun-climbing-DH-bike with like 3000Kw power but maintaining the light characteristics of the frame (around 16.5Kg race-ready / 3.5Kg frame+rear shock).

The goal is to stay inside 30Kg (mean 13.5Kg for all the electric stuff) or better near 25 (mean 8.5Kg), so I need the best for materials/reliability, price is important but secondary, obviously the max speed is not important but the climbing ability and the acceleration.

The idea is to redesign/change some of the ergal CNC lattice plates of the downtube and to enlarge some of the holes like the pivot and the bottom bracket to accomodate a central motor (maybe RC?) with a simple as possible transmission and the battery without compromising the geometry of the bike.

I'm also searching for info about brake recharging

Wath I ask to the forum is to help me decide:

- the motor (type - brand - model), advantages and disadvantages
- the simpliest way to efficiently transmit the motor power and reduce rpm
- the best battery packs avalaible - controllers and electronics stuff, advantages and disadvantages

the two possible frame base are:

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 5867442258

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 6071439266

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 0677593154

Thanks all

Jules

[torker]

Welcome ! Awesome looking frames too

[Whiplash]

Very interesting frame! It looks to be modular in construction, is it? Very cool idea!

[etard]

First, welcome! Your English is fine, very understandable. Second, Matt (recumpence) new 14 KW motor would look the shit in that frame. Those frames are some ofthe coolest designs I have seen in awhile! How much does one of those weigh? It would be cool to put everything in carbon fiber containers inside the structure.

[ev_nred]

welcome to the forums! those frame look sick!

[panurge]

Hi guys

Yes is a kind of modular system.
As you can see, the start bike base is really a good base.

Ther's No weldings, all parts CNC machined from solid Alu70 and ergal or hand made with hi-profile carbonfiber, Screw and lettice plates made by ergal, hubs made by Ti Alloy, superlight air-shock, DH air-fork lightest DH guarniture on the market........I miss the best motor-transmition-controller-battery solution.

I'm searching for lightweight, power and reliability....( I know...the holy Grail...)

Help me choose the right way....!!!!!!

P.S. Maybe 14Kw is a lot of power... I looked at the Matt's motor and is a great work but is it already avalaible? how is the battery weight for a reasonable Km range per charge for this motors size? what's about heating-reliability? and sensors/controllers?

An Idea is to use mini-motorcycles chain/chainring/pinion cause the weight/power involved is similar and the avaliability on the race market of 6-12 teeth pinions but have to give up the derailleur and the road go easily to motorbike...what are you thinking about?

Thanks all

Jules

[damonjackson_spl]

Very cool frame. I just love single pivot dh frames!!

The frame also looks very versatile. Swap 2 cnc plates to house the motor and bang u hVe a dh frane with ebike add on capabilities!!

Looks like Ti bolts no doubt!!!

[flyinmonkie]

For the motor and batteries, I would go with Matt's current set up. An astro with his reduction, his throttle set up, and a castle creations controller. You can get all of that from him currently. It is great kit. If you want crazy power you can go with a double motor set up. Check this thread to see the possibilities.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16486

If you want it more tame then a single motor setup. Go with Lipo batteries for low weight and power. The RC setups are proven to work well if you aren't trying to push them beyond their limits and you pedal just a little at the start.

Personally I don't like the look of the frames, just my preference. But, they are a great base for an ebike as they should be easy to add electric components to. I look forward to seeing what you do and how it turns out.

Clay

[Hillhater]

Frame sure looks impressive...but i doubt it would be as light or rigid as a welded Al, or one piece CF frame..
...and a real b1tch to keep clean !
Im thinking "Show pony" rather than "Race horse" ..
Maybe we should start a "Book" on guessing the cost !

[gogo]

Frame sure looks impressive...but i doubt it would be as light or rigid as a welded Al, or one piece CF frame..

Looks light enough to me and I'd bet money its more rigid than a conventional frame. It reminds me of my high school physics project. We made 2" X 2" X 8" "bridges" out of a limited amount of tiny balsa wood sticks. They were tested by supporting each end and pressing in the middle with a valve spring tester. I copied the triangulation of freeway sign holders making sure the middle was meant for downforce. All the other students' bridges held less than 10 lbs and bent considerably before they broke. Mine was absolutely rigid and finally snapped somewhere after supporting 69 lbs.

Never underestimate the strength of triangulation.

[Whiplash]

YEP. what he said!

[Hillhater]

...Never underestimate the strength of triangulation.

And never underestimate the strength AND RIGIDITY of a full skin monocoque component ( Tube)
Every connection is a stress concentration
Every connector is a failure risk
Every space contributes nothing to the strength of the component

[Timma2500]

Welcome to the forum Jules
Mate, they are some of the most stunning alloy frames i've ever seen!
That would be an awsome starting platform to work with, many options open up to you for various setups.
My frame's swingarm is similar to that but with an RHS instead of the round tube.

A powerful setup would be a 3220, Matt's drive unit, Matt's throttle setup / HV160 for now then when one or some of the boys on the forum get a high powered brushless controller built for sale to suit RC / Matt's 14kw motors, you could switch to that and fit halls to the motor for sensored use.
Although it might be a little over 3kw

Can't wait to see how it turns out



Paul

[panurge]

[quote="Timma2500"]
.......Although it might be a little over 3kw

I assume minmum 3Kw and not a lot more because I wanna stay inside 25-30 kilos...if I can get more power in this weight range.......perfect....so what I need is the max power for a 13.5 Kilos kit (battery-motor-sensor-controller)

[panurge]

Frame sure looks impressive...but i doubt it would be as light or rigid as a welded Al, or one piece CF frame..
...and a real b1tch to keep clean !
Im thinking "Show pony" rather than "Race horse" ..
Maybe we should start a "Book" on guessing the cost !

You may like or not the frame but it has 8 year racing experience and improvements and the strenght and light are not in discussion .
Remember that the welded part is the true weak point, especially if not performed well and with approximate techniques and/or fast assembly line... ...aeronautics and arospatial use screw and structural glue...
The cost is less then you can immage, less than comparable frames.
But all this is really off-topic

Look at the show pony in action...

[Wheazel]

Intresting project! I did not quite understand how you plan to accomodate the batteries yet, what are your thoughts?
And how much Ah are you shooting for?

You want to stay within 30kg, which I think is a very good number for a high power bike. Will be abit painful to pedal it without assist, but manegable.
If we look at some numbers, a decent motor will be about 1kg, CC160HV controller obviously very light and small, batteries will be about 6,2kgs per kWh(Based on hobbykings 5000mah lipo packs and 3,7v/cell).
1 kWh is obviously alot of batteries on an ebike, you will likely use less.
To that some throttle, all the gearing etc and other hardware needed for mounting/protecting the equipment.

I am thinking that adding 10kgs will get you alot of power and is very doable.

[panurge]

For the motor and batteries, I would go with Matt's current set up. An astro with his reduction, his throttle set up, and a castle creations controller. You can get all of that from him currently. It is great kit. If you want crazy power you can go with a double motor set up. Check this thread to see the possibilities.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16486

thanks Clay, these are a starting good suggestion, so I try to ask Matt's for infos about his kit....

If you want it more tame then a single motor setup. Go with Lipo batteries for low weight and power. The RC setups are proven to work well if you aren't trying to push them beyond their limits and you pedal just a little at the start.

This is one of the problems I'd like to overcome....As I'm a motorbiker maybe it's my bias but have to pedal on start with kilowatts under the seat it's a bit strange....

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 4944077522

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 6918249938

[panurge]

Wheazel

Thanks for the infos...
what you're saying about the 10 Kilos is a good confirm.

In the 2002 the bike was about 24 Kg in race config and was not light to use outside downhill...but as you say was manageable, this is an objective, now with the 16.5 kilos the bike is more than acceptable also in a flat surfaces.

The batteries may be accomodate inside the plates structure in CF or alu box.
The image in my mind is:
- Batteries and control inside the lettice
- The motor hosted between 2 customs new ergal plates of the downtube lettice (near the crank) with shaft/pinion on the left.
- A short chain from Motor-pinion to an axle hosted in the pivot hole, this axle with chainwheel on both side but with different teeth numbers with a chain..
-1 This chain can go direct to the cassette and connected with crank axle (maybe trial-type) by another small chain (so 2 chainwheel on right-side of the axle).

or

-2 This chain go direct to the cassette and ther's no pedal (motorbike way), but this open a lot of new doors and compromise the weight objective as well as the bike-mind....

or

-3 This chain go to the crank axle where a free-chainwheel system transmit all to the cassette.

or

-4 a new central gear-transmition have to be designed

Interesting discussion for me:
-Geometry
-tipe of chain/pinions (I was thinking on mini-motorbikes stuff as I post before)
-belt/chain hybrid hypothesis
-power integration between pedals and motor
-Brake recharge


P.S. The flexibility of the frame include 4 interchangeable dropouts (DH 12mm through - quickrelease - 29er - single speed)

Thanks all

Jules

[etard]

Another good feature of that frame style would be the ability to turn one of the junctures into a jackshaft tube. Mount the motor up high and toward the front sending power to the shockmount which could have a jackshaft built inside and crossover to the other side of bike and then back to the rear wheel. A member here was going to do that with his Brooklyn Machine Works frame but ran into some other problems. It seemed a very good platform to start with though. I suppose a 3220 Astro will be plenty enough power for what you are wanting to do, I just thought the 14KW motor would look sweet in your frame. I would go with a sensored Astro 3220 ( ask Matt which KV he thinks you should get) driven by a modded 6 FET controller, definately HobbyKing Lipo in a 16S configuration with a Meanwell power supply for charging, or the new Hyperion 14S charger, a Ggoodrum BMS Balance board for battery health, and then do a 2 stage reduction with both stages chain driven. I would get the DH dropouts (150mm wide?) and use some spacers so that I could have the rear sprocket attached to the rear brake flange and have a disc brake as well, again Matt can help you here with the adapter plate for the sprocket to brake flange. But that's what I would do, your ideas may be completely different.

[flyinmonkie]

This is one of the problems I'd like to overcome....As I'm a motorbiker maybe it's my bias but have to pedal on start with kilowatts under the seat it's a bit strange....

I thought this as well and I can start without pedaling on my bike. But, I tend to pedal a stroke or two first every time I start. It just feels natural and allows me to get my feet in the right position to ride. A couple of revolutions is all you need with Matt's setup. If you want to go with foot pegs instead of pedals, then like Etard suggested get a hall sensor set up for the motor and use a sensored controller. Burtie and Gwhy have had success with this and can help you with the sensors.

Clay

[panurge]

Thanks etard for your interest and your suggestions, that's what I'm looking for...

I have nothing to say against 14 KW it's only hard to stay within the 25-30 Kg primary objective...anyway Matt's project is really interesting for me.
Your idea seems not far from mine (my Technical English is a disaster, I know)
I immagine to put a jackshaft (thanks for the word) in the Pivot and the motor, with his shaft/pinion on the left side of bike, mounted in a rebuilt couple of ergal plates. the crankset at his place.
The batteries in the remainig space inside the lettice (there is enough space?).

For all concerning CNC or Al-Ti welding or CF I have no problem to build everything.

My problem is the electric stuff

Here the dropouts, the new Ti Alloy Hub and the new dual shock

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 2252415314

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 9788343842

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75 ... 5764789746

Jules

[panurge]

News

I start to design 2 or 3 totally new "downtubes" of the DHframe, the one that has plates up and Alutubes or CF-alu box (or CF-ergal lettice in the prototipe picture) as a downtube.
The same geometry with the same holes-juncture points for the upper plates. The idea (I will post some painting/cad later) is a monocoque machined form solid Alu-box or maybe 2 pieces, that from my calculation can accomodate, in 3 internal separated chambers, 12 packs of Li-Po 4s 5800mAh batteries and an Rc motor, externally it may seems to a monolithic alu rect. prism with holes for the motor. I change idea from:
- put batteries into a box between the plates
- into Make the downtube like a box

Remaining the plates in the upper side, in fact it will be the 5th version of the Downtube of this bike.
I stay always with my Idea to put a jackshaft onto the shock pivot and use a dual stage reduction.
I like to do the first stage with belt cause the highRPM and the small number of teeth.

I asked for a friend who work on minimotorbikes about chain-pinion, he said that life is the problem of these parts cause are made for race, the small pinion (6t) 4example have to be changed every race (these babymonsters can have more than 15Kw), but the 12t instead a bike's 12t is really more durable and strong; if the way goes to motorbike style, maybe one of these pack (pinion-chain-sproket) with asymmetrics teeth will be perfect, maybe if also using a central gearbox.

I will post the next step

Jules

[panurge]

Hello folks

Sorry for the delay but a new creature has come in my life, and is not the E-bike, He is my son Paul ^_^

But the E-project is still in action....

I remember you the frame base that I choose for the conversion, is the same frame in the 3 photos only downtube is different:

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75/Bikes#5571715246071439266
https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75/Bikes#5572375576537261554
https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75/Bikes#5572375667263788802

Until now these are my choices:

- Frame: new downtube and new cranck area.

The New downtube is ready to be machined, and combines with the top plates as the old one. It consists of 2 parallel boxes that holds up to 4 5000mAh 6s turnigy packs with wiring and board each, so can use up to 12s 20A; these two box from solid Alu have in the down-side connections for the drivetrain/crank unit.

Here the first rapid drawing:

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75/Bikes#5605862075393747586

- Charger: I go with http://www.tppacks.com boards/Hyperion config for one-plug charge/discharge/balance.

- Motor/ESC/Throttle: An Astro 3220, a CC160 HV, and throttle interface all from Matt.

- Drive: I'm always moving in two different ways as two single projects:

i) The first is a separate motor/pedals traction drive that requires sprockets and/or pulley on both wheel side as Matt's one, and I will buy his drive for this, but 1 or 2 stages? (4:1 or 12:1).

ii) The second is to use a a transmission that drive the motor line output and the cranck line (with a Hammershmidt or shlumpf) thru a single final chain, to a (single speed) freewheel hub in the conventional right side of the wheel, I like to put the jackshaft (with a freewheel for the chain coming from the cranck) in the swingarm pivot hole, but there's some size problem, as for the clutch, I will try.

Can the rear freewheel allow to exclude the torque limiter need as ESC-Motor protection? (Matt?)

I wanna try to use a centrifugal clutch for a stop-start climb ability and less stress for motor/controller.
Here in Italy there are a lot of manufacturers of these items for small motorcycles, gas-bike, karts and minimoto and I'm looking for the best possible solution (weight/dimension). Please comment.

When I will have stuff in my hands I will post photos and specs.

Any comment to ratios-architecture will be precious, especially related to the astro 3220 specs on a 26" bike, from Matt and all the Astro users/experts. I assume eventually to set the clutch for a 1500-2500 rpm range engagement, and a 2500-8000 motor rpm range of use; also for these assumptions any suggestion will be appreciated.

I have not a real need for pedaling and use motor at the same time, cause this is an up-hill down-hill project, but when downhill, with motor off, some pedaling is needed.

Later I will post some CAD's so you can better figure out the project.

PS

As for the bike base, all parts will stay in a briefcase ^_^

https://picasaweb.google.com/panurgos75/Bikes#5604751607604655794

Sorry for my English

Jules

[kfong]

Great project Jules, I really like the lattice structure of your design and look forward to the finished bike.

[panurge]

Hello Folks

Thank you Kfong for the interest...

But where are Astro users? I know that in the forum there are a lot of Info about 3220 motors but, without a real experience with it, I cannot well understand the correct RPM range of use..... same and consequently as for best total reduction ratio on a 26" 2.25 tire that look more to climb-ability than speed.

Waiting for components, I have the time to speculate: is a 18:1 ratio from motor to the wheel a good ratio for up-hill?

Here a custom drive calc. for 3220 motor based on Astro specs and 3 ratio hypothesis...

drivetraincalc..xls

(25.5 KiB) Downloaded 59 times

Any comment/suggestion will be appreciated

Jules

Edit: I correct the Astro data, with 3220 instead of 3210