Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Electric Motors and Controllers

Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Thud » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:00 am

Cheers Burtie,
Is there such a thing as "Extra" When it come to tourque producing copper? :mrgreen:

Outrunner topology is at a slight disadvantage regarding heat transfer out of the stator.
I have bee debating if there would be any gain to "potting" the stator in silicone rubber to aid the transfer to the bearig tube & ultimatly out of the motor.
Then a actve cooling system could be employed either on the motor mount or in the actual end cap of the motor.
I know the Colosus guy's have made allowance for water cooling.

Any thoughts? Anyone?
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Miles » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:26 am

Thud wrote: I have bee debating if there would be any gain to "potting" the stator in silicone rubber to aid the transfer to the bearig tube & ultimatly out of the motor.
I'm sure it would be an improvement. Luke would know the best potting material...
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby johnrobholmes » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:30 am

Regarding copper volume, I have ran into a point on brushed motors where higher copper fill didn't get anything better on the dyno. Power or torque didn't increase, and it wasn't because of saturation in the brushes or steel. Going to hotter winds produces more power. I'm still trying to figure out why this occured, I figured that more copper would allow for more power at all levels.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:36 am

Thud wrote: I have bee debating if there would be any gain to "potting" the stator in silicone rubber to aid the transfer to the bearig tube & ultimatly out of the motor.
Then a actve cooling system could be employed either on the motor mount or in the actual end cap of the motor.
I know the Colosus guy's have made allowance for water cooling.

Any thoughts? Anyone?


Like Miles, I'm sure pretty much anything has to be better than the limited amount of air cooling that the windings get. Air is a pretty poor way of shifting heat unless you can get a lot of it through the motor. I'd think that one of the filled, high temperature epoxy resins might offer a pretty good way of doing this, although I'd not want to try and take the motor apart. I wonder if you can get something that's highly heat conductive, yet still an insulator that could be mixed with a high temperature resin and infused around the windings? It might need a vacuum system to get resin into all the nooks and crannies, but might just offer both enhanced thermal conductivity and better physical protection for the windings.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Thud » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:50 am

Jeremy,Miles,
I was a bit shocked to see that silicone rubber has some decent thermal transfer properties & is good for temps aproaching 800f. The Idea struck me as I was mixing some tooling rubber for my hall sensor molds. I think it was Fechter who mentioned silicone in one of the axial threads.

John, that is interesting about the copper. I really need to get a dyno built someday to do some direct compairisons of motor configurations. I have the spindle on my cnc wound straight LRK with 6 teeth...it "seems" every bit as powerfull as my DLRK 12 tooh re-builds. I have no idea if we have reached the point of diminesed return with the materials in hand. It really is a ballancing act of copper & magnets & ellectricity after all is said & done.

Thanks for the input fellows.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Jeremy Harris » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:07 am

If silicone will do the job then that has to be the best option, as at least you could still get the motor apart again if you had to. It's probably well worth doing so research to see how effective it might be.

I'm also intrigued by the 6 tooth wind, as it offers the possibility of lowering the total winding resistance. I guess the limiting factor has to be core saturation - just how many amp turns will a stator tooth take before saturating.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Miles » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:19 am

Thud wrote: It really is a ballancing act of copper & magnets & ellectricity after all is said & done.
I guess the balancing starts with the ratio of Copper to Iron when designing the motor?

Great tutorial! Thanks, Todd.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Miles » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:11 pm

Jeremy Harris wrote:If silicone will do the job then that has to be the best option, as at least you could still get the motor apart again if you had to. It's probably well worth doing so research to see how effective it might be.
I found this:
http://www.sinus-electronic.de/datenbla ... 31K_EX.pdf
http://www.silicone-solutions.co.uk/The ... h%20V3.pdf
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby texaspyro » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:46 pm

Jeremy Harris wrote: I wonder if you can get something that's highly heat conductive, yet still an insulator that could be mixed with a high temperature resin and infused around the windings?


Most of the thermal epoxies for CPUs, etc use aluminum oxide as the filler. The CPU people want like dollars per gram for the stuff. I went to the local ceramics supply store and bought a pound of aluminum oxide for less than $5 and make my own thermal epoxy. You can also get diamond powder (natural or man made) for almost reasonable amounts...
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby bobc » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:58 pm

Gents,
I can't help feeling that the best way of conducting the heat out of the stator slots is along the copper windings themselves. Whatever you put into an epoxy matrix will be hobbled by the epoxy content. Al oxide is 50W/mK heat conductivity compared to ~370-400 for copper. Al nitride is a LOT better at 150W/mK. (as suggested diamond is great at 2000W/mK!). the most disappointing stuff is heatsink compound at less than 1W/mK - but this is considerably better than air (which it replaces when used).
I've heard of thermal conductor filled plastics going up to 20W/mK, but these materials' mechanical properties are poor enough to make them practically unusable - otherwise they would have made interesting combined housing/heatsink for some of our procucts at work.
Oh yeah - in the olden days some high power components used to be filled with beryllium oxide - but I have no idea what its thermal properties are - check google - ooh 330W/mK good stuff - hideously poisonous mind you
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Biff » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:51 pm

Interesting idea of making your own thermal epoxy. I wonder if the aluminum oxide or diamond would risk shorting coils.

The standard thing to use is something like this

http://www.epoxies.com/therm.htm

Product 50-3150FR is about as thick as chocolate syrup or ketchup (according to Wikipeida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity )
Product 50-3100 is about as thick as peanut butter

I think those are the best two products from that supplier, there must be more suppliers of products like that, those kind of epoxies are very common in the motor building business. It is important to get vacuum on the parts when you apply the epoxy, that way all the air is removed to ensure that there is good conduction within the coil itself. If there are air pockets in there you will have local hot spots that can be significantly hotter than the rest of the coil which could cause problems if you are pushing the limits of the motor.

to bobc .. the idea of using the conductor itself to remove the heat is attractive, but the length of the copper and small cross section of the leads makes it infeasible. There are large motors which actually have hollow copper wire, and they pump cooling liquid right through the center. I haven't found any hollow conductors that would be suitable for small applications.


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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby texaspyro » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:57 pm

Aluminum oxide and diamond are two excellent insulators. Unless your diamonds are boron doped blue diamonds... they conduct and are used as pacemaker electrodes.

Another good possibility is silicon carbide... The best possible conductor is isotopically pure C6 diamond... twice the conductivity of natural diamond.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Biff » Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:45 pm

texaspyro wrote:Aluminum oxide and diamond are two excellent insulators. Unless your diamonds are boron doped blue diamonds... they conduct and are used as pacemaker electrodes.

Another good possibility is silicon carbide... The best possible conductor is isotopically pure C6 diamond... twice the conductivity of natural diamond.


Thats neat. Did you ever do any tests to measure the thermal conductivity of the epoxies you mixed?
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby bobc » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:30 am

Thought about this a bit more: How about putting a single copper tube in amongst the windings, zig zag it all the way round the motor & bring it out with the power wires. Pump water through this. Now you will get effective cooling of the windings.
PS the highest thermal conductivity I've seen for a thermally loaded paste has been in single figures (W/mK) (I think that had a load of silver in it) (why is it always expensive stuff....??)
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby olaf-lampe » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:38 am

bobc wrote:Thought about this a bit more: How about putting a single copper tube in amongst the windings, zig zag it all the way round the motor & bring it out with the power wires. Pump water through this. Now you will get effective cooling of the windings.
PS the highest thermal conductivity I've seen for a thermally loaded paste has been in single figures (W/mK) (I think that had a load of silver in it) (why is it always expensive stuff....??)


I had a similar idea: put watercooled aluminium plates on the heads of the stator. ( same shape as the lamination ) before you wind it.
Maybe a combination of both is the best way... zigzagging pipes is not as easy as it sounds...
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Jeremy Harris » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:21 am

olaf-lampe wrote:... zigzagging pipes is not as easy as it sounds...


Plus it'd probably cause increased eddy current loss and take away winding space that could be used for more copper to lower the winding resistance that would reduce losses.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Thud » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:17 am

Active cooling:
Given the design or the motors, I would think it would be easyer to encase the entire unit in a liquid tight enclosure.
Just some attention to details to remove all the "pumping" surfaces & sharp edges that would create drag & a shaft seal on the output. An coolant input through the stator & a few proper designed orafaces for flow...

Again, that would be for a much larger motor than my 7kw rebuilt turnigys :D
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Jeremy Harris » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:27 am

Thud wrote:Active cooling:
Given the design or the motors, I would think it would be easyer to encase the entire unit in a liquid tight enclosure.
Just some attention to details to remove all the "pumping" surfaces & sharp edges that would create drag & a shaft seal on the output. An coolant input through the stator & a few proper designed orafaces for flow...

Again, that would be for a much larger motor than my 7kw rebuilt turnigys :D


Good idea, this is exactly what the Prius does. Toyota immerse both motors in the transmission oil and fit a cooling system. It allows them to push pretty high current through windings that don't look like they would normally take it.

It would be easy enough to see the effect of oil pumping/circulation losses, just by running a motor suspended in a tank of light oil. I bet they wouldn't be too high, even leaving the motor standard. If the motor was hooked up to a chain reduction drive and the whole thing immersed in light oil I bet it make for a very reliable drive system. It'd probably be fairly quiet, too, as I bet the oil would damp out a lot of noise.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby bobc » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:59 am

Jeremy Harris wrote:
olaf-lampe wrote:... zigzagging pipes is not as easy as it sounds...


Plus it'd probably cause increased eddy current loss and take away winding space that could be used for more copper to lower the winding resistance that would reduce losses.

Jeremy

I was thinking pretty small pipes guys.... 1.5mm bore say - in copper that would bend easy enough & shouldn't take too much room.
Thinking about it, it would be better to take 2 pipes round in opposite directions to cancel temperature gradients.
yes it would have to be varnished & terminated with plastic to prevent shorted turn(s)
You don't need a lot of water to cart a LOT of heat away....

PS read this - it's all true
http://www.dansdata.com/goop.htm
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby texaspyro » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:44 pm

Biff wrote:Did you ever do any tests to measure the thermal conductivity of the epoxies you mixed?


Nope, I used the epoxy to mount temperature sensors (LM35's) to high power (50-100W) LEDs (see viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23033&p=351762&hilit=dalewheat#p354447). I have used similar material to pot up some fairly high power electronics modules.

The thermal input to the sensors is through its leads, not the TO-92 plastic package. I left the leads full length and covered them and the sensor with my thermal epoxy. Seems to work very well.

The sensor readings matched a thermocouple spot welded directly to the surface, so the thermal conductivity is pretty reasonable.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby texaspyro » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:00 pm

On the subject of winding motors and detecting shorted wnidings, etc... I have more than a few Tektronix 1502 and 1503 time domain reflectometers (TDRs). See http://www.prc68.com/I/Tek1502.shtml for some background.

These send a very fast rise time pulse down a wire and wherever there is a short/open/impedance anomaly in the wire, some of that pulse gets reflected back to the TDR where it is detected and displayed on a CRT or LCD screen. They also contain a chart recorder or plotter output module. The resolution of the 1502 on short runs is around 0.6" (the pulse rise time is measured in picoseconds).

I have not tried using one on a motor, but it would probably work rather well. You could certainly compare the various windings for matches and differences.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby phyllis » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:01 pm

I know thas some steam boilers (SAAB, in the 70's I think) have been made with lots of parallell 1mm inner diameter pipe.
But what about galvanic corrosion if it is used for watercooled windings? Anyone know?
Mcmaster has some high conductive copper pipe but even the smallest has 6 mm2 copper cross section (OD 3.18 mm ID 1.55 mm)

Heat pipes are very conductive and you wouldn't need a pump.

Since there is so much open space in the stator (even with a good wind) it should be possible to encapsulate only the stator, in fiberglass or something, and run liquid coolant through it in direct contact with the windings. Then there wouldn't be any friction loss due to liquid between the stator and rotor.

EDIT: anyone know how to calculate roughly the drag between rotor and stator with various viscosities fluid in between?
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Ludo91 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:08 pm

My 80- 100 HTX 180 Kv died toady... loose stock windings didnt mange to take the heat... :roll:

So its time to rewind!

I was thinking to to rewind it with a copper tube, something with 1.8mm ext diameter and .5 external diameter so i could pump coolant in it.... Seems some of u had the same Idea, I`ll let u know if I find something intresting my friends :D :D
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby phyllis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:35 pm

Condolances! Let me know if you find some suitable tube, and either way how it goes!
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Postby Ludo91 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:57 pm

For sure! anyway it was a pretty expected death since i was brutally abusing of it :twisted:

edit: I am sending inquries to many producers over the net, how many meters of wire do i need to rewind a htx 80 100 motor assuming 8 turns of single wire? tnks :wink:
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