Adding hall sensors to outrunners

[olaf-lampe]

The motor seems to run with wrong timing. But at least, it seems you've found the right firing order.
Label the hall signal cables in the connector like 1-2-3;
then put cable 1 in position 2; 2 in position 3; 3 in position 1. ( position in the connector )

If that doesn't work; put 1 in position 3; 2 in position 1 and 3 in position 2.
If that doesn't work too, you connect the signal cables as they were originally and put the hall sensors in the neighbour stator-slots. Then try again, what I described above.

When the motor runs the wrong way round, you have to exchange two phase wires and the corresponding hall wires. The motor will also run in a different direction, when you try out one of the above mentioned hall-wire placements.

Good luck
Olaf

[Thud]

Here is my take on your situation cheese.

Is that an e-crazyman 6 fet controller? if so, there is a over-current limiting function that will need to be modified.

My fix these days is to add a resistor accross the capacitor labled C20. (1k seems to work well for me)
this will help tame the cutting out you are experiancing.

your motor is terminated delta?
Next thing apeares to me that you may need to move the hall's over 1 slot on the stator. the goal is to find true neutral timing & allow the motor to spin in either direction.

Now lets put an end to the 108 combinations myth. There are only 36 possible combo's IF you count the phase wires in the senario.

Here is the fast way to get your motor spinning:
hook up all your wires & try the throttle....if it Judders & shakes change out the PHASE wires on the motor untill it spins smoothly & sounds happy. you now only have 6 combo's to make it work....if you can not get a motor spinning with the 6 combo's, look for another issue. I have had bad or damged halls give me fits.

once you have it spinning, you only need to swap a pr of phase wires & the corosponding hall wires (color coded on the e-crazy man controllers) to change rotation.
good luck. T

[Cheeseboy]

Thank you very much for the replies guys

Nothing has seemed to improve the problem but everything I try that doesn't work is another thing crossed off the list of problems, so we'll get there eventually!

I have checked and all of my Hall sensors work, they either give off 5 volts or close enough to 0 volts depending on the position of the rotor, a sensor goes from 5 volts to 0 volts every two "clicks" I turn the rotor.

the Dots on the hall sensors all face outward towards the magnets, if that matters.

I made another video to help show some things, I said there was a gap of 4 slots between each sensor, that was a mistake, there is actually a gap of 3 slots, sorry about that

Thud, The 108 combinations comes from the fact that I've tried the 36 possible combinations 3 times trying to find the right wiring How would I be able to tell whether the motor is terminated in delta?

I moved all of the sensors 1 slot to the left, how many different positions do I need to try until I'm back where I started? do I need to try the one on the right of my original hall position or is there rotational symmetry which makes it redundant?

a Tesla Roadster goes to whoever can guess my accent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0BghYOY5b0

Thank you very much Olaf and Thud for your help

[AussieJester]

a Tesla Roadster goes to whoever can guess my accent.

I think you might be a Zimbabwean and or 'Seth Efrican' that has lived in Australia for a few years...do i win? ...

KiM

[Cheeseboy]

a Tesla Roadster goes to whoever can guess my accent.

I think you might be a Zimbabwean and or 'Seth Efrican' that has lived in Australia for a few years...do i win? ...

KiM

Astonishingly close, but no cigar

[Thud]

Hmnn,
What brand is that motor? By moving your halls 1 slot should have you in the sweet spot. I have never seen a factory outrunner that size that wasn't wound DLRK & terminated in Delta. Confirm you have 14 magnets in the can.

Here is a link to your controller. (you will find the c20 under the large cap laying on its side)
the board is labled EB206-A-3 its an xiechang 6fet standard offering. (the far left "FET" is a lm317 voltage regulator)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18641
This model controller is notorious for the cutting out issues your experiancing. if you want to try a work around. solder the shunt wire closed & see if that gets you working on the bench. I don't recomend operating on a bike that way unless you have some monitering going on.

Are you aware of the programability of these controllers?
Hope this helps.

accent? what accent...

[AussieJester]

a Tesla Roadster goes to whoever can guess my accent.

I think you might be a Zimbabwean and or 'Seth Efrican' that has lived in Australia for a few years...do i win? ...

KiM

Astonishingly close, but no cigar

OK then... 'Seth Efricana' living in the Motherland (England)

KiM

[Cheeseboy]

I got the motor from Hobbyking, it's called an E-Drive, but they do not sell this model any more. It's a really great motor, way better than I expected, chose it because it had the same dimensions and shaft size as the 100 watt scooter motor I was replacing with it.

Definitely 14 magnets.

I soldered some 14AWG wire across the shunt and problem gone! Thanks heaps for that!

Aussie Jester, I'm of Seth Efrican descent, but born in Botswana, living in Australia going on six years You've got a skill there sir!

I got this controller for $0.50 Shipped off eBay, without ANY info but I've heard of the programmability just never thought mine had it haha, I don't think I'll mess around with that side of things for a while though, until I deem it necessary or just get too curious

So one more shot with the halls moved to the left once more, Excellent.

Tomorrow I shall have this working Perfectly, I don't know why I didn't ask you experts earlier!

Thanks So much everyone!

[HumboldtRc]

Is the temp sensor in an sensored rc motor, connected to the positive of the hall signal wires or to the negative? I was just adding temp sensors in my motors when I was installing the hall effect sensors, and couldn't remember.

[marcexec]

Folks, I need your help.
I just managed to spin up my Turnigy 80-100B 130 RPM/v brushless outrunner with added hall sensors.
The no load current peaks at nearly 9A.
I put it in a video:


Controller settings:


Halls are SS411A, 120° mechanical apart:


Should I try to place the halls differently? Something broken?

[mdd0127]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

[marcexec]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

Thanks, I will try that.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

We will see about that - I will keep you guys posted.

[Ludo91]

guys I`m pretty in trouble placing my halls.

I have them with 17.15 degree spacing, but were relatively to the stator should I place them?

Should the "middle hall" or one of the two side halls match one of the "openings in the stator"? (I dont`k now the english name of the 12 "free spaces" between the 12 stator heads)

[gwhy!]

Put the middle hall more or less in-line with a slot, this should give you a starting point at least.

[modern_messiah]

Do all the principles for adding hall sensors to out-runners apply to in-runners? I can't see why they would differ if they did. I'd imagine that your sensor placement would be trickier because it would be harder to place the sensors on the "back" of the rotor can. Anything else I'd need to watch out for?

[marcexec]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

Thanks, I will try that.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

We will see about that - I will keep you guys posted.

I made another run with another set of bearings: .
NLC is now 4.8A @~50V on WOT.
good enough?

[gwhy!]

4.8A is what I was getting without the skirt bearing so yes I think its about as good as your gonna get. just for info I was getting around 8A with the skirt bearing !!.

[marcexec]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

[gwhy!]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

yes, if your halls are 120degrees apart then you only need to swap the phase wires but you will have to swap the hall wires also if they are not 120degrees apart or you can re-adjust the halls to bring it back in to correct timing ( you can also just about get away without swapping the hall wires at 60degree spacing ). As you have glued them in the motor then Im guessing they are 120 apart so you should be fine just swapping 2 of the phase wires.

[marcexec]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

yes, if your halls are 120degrees apart then you only need to swap the phase wires but you will have to swap the hall wires also if they are not 120degrees apart or you can re-adjust the halls to bring it back in to correct timing ( you can also just about get away without swapping the hall wires at 60degree spacing ). As you have glued them in the motor then Im guessing they are 120 apart so you should be fine just swapping 2 of the phase wires.

Just realized the sound was missing:
And yes - I got those saggy LAs for free, only 12.1V @5A - should be ~1C I guess.

[benediktsamuel]

hey guys,

I am really in trouble. I´m building a Mountainboard with 2 Brushless Outrunners. I have glued the sensors in . 1 Works fine. The Second dont . i also tried every 6 different combinations

- hall1 hall2 hall3
- hall1 hall3 hall2
- hall2 hall1 hall3
- hall2 hall3 hall1
- hall3 hall1 hall2
- hall3 hall2 hall1

one of the Motors is working fine but the other one isnt working yet. what is wrong? did I forgot something?

is there anything i have to put between the halls and the controller?

here is a Picture how i glued them in.






please help me...

[marcexec]

What's your no load current on the "working" motor?
my sensors are glued in between the stators, not behind them.

[benediktsamuel]

My nonloadcurrent is about 2 or 3 a ... not more than without sensors.. problem is that there isnt enough sp space in the slot ...because its only a c6364

[gwhy!]

Some thoughts:
I have reverted back to 60degree m spacing and flipped the middle sensor ( I was using 17.14 ) for my external hall setup, the reason for this is it is far more predicable and less critical to the distance that the sensors are away from the can of the motor . I also been playing around with internal hall placement @ 120d m spacing and I think I have worked out why its important which slots that the halls need to be place into to get reliable running, if a hall is in between a tooth that gets energized at very hi load current ( less effected with low load ) then this slightly pulls/pushes the switching/release point for that sensor.

[amberwolf]

I wish I had remembered this thread existed before embarking on my latest motor project...but now that I've re-found it...

I need to re-read this entire thread again (just finished reading it the first time now), but while I do that, and try to actually absorb some of the information that seems to be bouncing off right now, perhaps some input on my "project":

I've got a huge (20lbs+) brushless powerchair motor that's about the same size stator as something like the X5 series, I think, but it's wound to directly drive a small powerchair wheel (14", I think) at either 4 or 8MPH at 24V (really 28V, two SLA in series).

Built in it has SIN/COS analog sensor output...which is useless (without translation hardware) for ebike controllers (which is what I have avaialble to drive it). I added digital hall sensors at 120 degree physical intervals, gluing them temporarily with just superglue to hand-carved recesses in the material covering the windings between stator teeth.

It's a 45-tooth, 40-magnet, Wye-terminated motor. Presumably it is 15 poles? No idea on number of turns/etc, or inductance (yet, I have a plan to test that later once I find my signal generator).

Presently, the no-load full-throttle current at 40V is about 1.6A, and at 56V is about 1.7A.

There are pics and videos and further data in it's thread over here:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32838
if needed, or at request I can repost them over here in this thread.


What I would like to find out is what the optimum placement of sensors might be (for timing and high-load situations), if not where I already have them.

At present, there is definite clicking (of changing fields, not mechanical) at each part of a rotation equal to magnet passing stator tooth (or more than one tooth). That might simply be how it works with an ebike controller using trapezoidal commutation, and it might be smoother with a sine controller (but I don't have one). But if it can be made better by simple hall repositioning, I'm up for trying that, if anyone has a fairly certain idea of what might work better. I can't reposition them much, or I'll break the leads off (already did this to one and barely fixed it), and I have no spares except what is in other motors.

What I had planned was to install them on a ring on the outside of the mtor, but there isn't enough flux leakage for them to pick up, so they had to go inside on the stator.


There *is* another magnetic encoder source, which is the ring used for the analog SIN/COS output. I could probably mount them inside there where they can detect the domains on the ring, but I dont' yet know how many there are; if it's less than the number of magnets on the rotor, I'm not sure how things would work with an ebike controller.