Back in the Saddle, 'Bent Mid-drive project!!

[Rassy]

Thanks for the pics in "short" mode. Nice conversion job, looks pretty slick.

How do you like riding it in "short" mode compared to when it was in "long" mode?

How do you like the Over Seat Steering compared to the Under Seat Steering?

With the beefier tires does it still feel efficient pedaling up your hills?

[LI-ghtcycle]

Thanks for the pics in "short" mode. Nice conversion job, looks pretty slick.

How do you like riding it in "short" mode compared to when it was in "long" mode?

How do you like the Over Seat Steering compared to the Under Seat Steering?

With the beefier tires does it still feel efficient pedaling up your hills?

You know, in a word it's a bike again!

The under seat steering was so alien and uncomfortable, and it's more limited turning radius coupled with the "long" mode really made it difficult to maneuver especially when moving the bike while walking along side it, like parking it in my garage.

Now that I have the over seat steering, I can go bombing down my favorite hill with out the fear the USS induced making things feel extremely twitchy and unstable.

The bigger tires really don't make the bike feel sluggish, the turning is less sharp of course, but this lessens the "twitchy" feel it had before, and other than the fact that I will probably have to goto a 1 3/4" taller 24" fork to make room for a fender with that 2.35 x 20in Big Apple up front, no problems at all!

If anything they make it easier to go up hills since now at low speeds I can keep things more steady instead of wobbling all over the place at a walking pace going up the really steep stuff.

If anything I think the extra 1 3/4 inches will give me considerably more clearance for my heels when turning sharp at lower speeds in SWB mode, that is the only thing about being shorter, you do occasionally bounce the heals off of the tire at slow speeds, but it has yet to do anything more than that, never caused me to feel the least bit uncomfortable, just a "bonk!" every once in a while to remind me.

I'm also getting my Lyen custom controller here soon to run this motor, it appears to have standard Golden Motor hall wires plug, so I'm thinking it should be pretty simple to get a CA Direct Plug-in model for it too, never realized before that you could get the DP model of CA and eliminate the speed sensor of a traditional cycle computer.

How is your mid-drive treating ya?

[LI-ghtcycle]

Whoo-Hoo!!

My front drum brake wheel built, gonna pick it up Wednesday, pics will follow!

[Rassy]

How is your mid-drive treating ya?

It's been about 15 months since I set it up and I have no plans to make any changes at this time. It's not as fast as many bikes, but it will go the "legal" 20 MPH. And the 48V 10AH Ping seems to be holding up great.

I seldom pull over 15 amps, usually much less. When climbing hills in low gear it will maintain about 6 MPH and the amp draw is about equal to the grade %. I.e., if I am pulling 12 amps (low gear, full throttle) then I am on a 12% grade. The amount I add with light pedaling has little effect.

So my advice to anyone that has big hills and is having trouble keeping a hub motor cool while lugging it down and pulling high amps, watch this build that LI-ghtcycle is doing. Whether you use a hub motor, an RC motor, or something in between like he is doing, once you give the motor some gearing options via a mid-drive set up you can eliminate the lugging and over heating problems.

[StudEbiker]

Whether you use a hub motor, an RC motor, or something in between like he is doing, once you give the motor some gearing options via a mid-drive set up you can eliminate the lugging and over heating problems.

I sure am looking forward to trying a mid-drive, but my machinist has had my motor mounting plates for almost a month now. Getting pretty itchy to get the Bike E on the road. You're build is looking great Li-ghtcycle! Looking forward to seeing this progress. Heck, you might have yours on the road before I get mine going.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Whether you use a hub motor, an RC motor, or something in between like he is doing, once you give the motor some gearing options via a mid-drive set up you can eliminate the lugging and over heating problems.

I sure am looking forward to trying a mid-drive, but my machinist has had my motor mounting plates for almost a month now. Getting pretty itchy to get the Bike E on the road. You're build is looking great Li-ghtcycle! Looking forward to seeing this progress. Heck, you might have yours on the road before I get mine going.

Well here is hoping that you don't have much longer to wait!

I'm having to light a fire under the Ebay seller with my new Power Supply coming, and it could still be another week before I see the motor. I am sure that I will have my new Lyen controller before anything else even though it's the last thing I have ordered of the group.

[LI-ghtcycle]

How is your mid-drive treating ya?

It's been about 15 months since I set it up and I have no plans to make any changes at this time. It's not as fast as many bikes, but it will go the "legal" 20 MPH. And the 48V 10AH Ping seems to be holding up great.

I seldom pull over 15 amps, usually much less. When climbing hills in low gear it will maintain about 6 MPH and the amp draw is about equal to the grade %. I.e., if I am pulling 12 amps (low gear, full throttle) then I am on a 12% grade. The amount I add with light pedaling has little effect.

So my advice to anyone that has big hills and is having trouble keeping a hub motor cool while lugging it down and pulling high amps, watch this build that LI-ghtcycle is doing. Whether you use a hub motor, an RC motor, or something in between like he is doing, once you give the motor some gearing options via a mid-drive set up you can eliminate the lugging and over heating problems.

Sounds like it's treating you well!

I really like how you just wrapped the chain around the outside of the cog to reverse the direction very elegant solution! Did you have to lock-tight the cog or is it kept on with just normal pedaling like that of a standard freewheel?

Thanks for the support and kind words, all!

I have a lot of "on paper" plans, we will have to see how it works in the real world once I have it in hand.

[Rassy]

I really like how you just wrapped the chain around the outside of the cog to reverse the direction very elegant solution! Did you have to lock-tight the cog or is it kept on with just normal pedaling like that of a standard freewheel?

First, remember that the motor is flipped over, so when it runs it is spinning counter clockwise when looking at the cog side, and the cog is actually screwed onto the disk brake threads.

So the motor torque is trying to screw the cog on tighter. When pedaling without using the motor the cog would try to unscrew. But is doesn't, because I loc-tite'd a bottom bracket lock ring outside the cog. The motor, with peaks over 1000 Watts screws the cog on tighter than I could unscrew it with normal pedaling. In fact, I have a freewheel on my other 9C that I was using, and I can't get the freewheel off, even with a commercial removal tool I got from Sick Bike Parts. And there was no loc-tite used on it.

[LI-ghtcycle]

I really like how you just wrapped the chain around the outside of the cog to reverse the direction very elegant solution! Did you have to lock-tight the cog or is it kept on with just normal pedaling like that of a standard freewheel?

First, remember that the motor is flipped over, so when it runs it is spinning counter clockwise when looking at the cog side, and the cog is actually screwed onto the disk brake threads.

So the motor torque is trying to screw the cog on tighter. When pedaling without using the motor the cog would try to unscrew. But is doesn't, because I loc-tite'd a bottom bracket lock ring outside the cog. The motor, with peaks over 1000 Watts screws the cog on tighter than I could unscrew it with normal pedaling. In fact, I have a freewheel on my other 9C that I was using, and I can't get the freewheel off, even with a commercial removal tool I got from Sick Bike Parts. And there was no loc-tite used on it.

Very kewl, I thought that might be the case, I've solved that problem with just locktighting the entire cog onto my 9 X 7 hub, but in my case the it was unscrewing it since it is running direct drive no freewheel (the motor turns all the time when the pedals move) yet there is the freewheel on the pedal chain, so I can still coast.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, I guess I have my first long wait on a product from China, seems someone forgot to ship my motor .... well, I'm willing to give them a mistake here and there before getting to upset, we are all human beings, hopefully I receive the motor in the next couple weeks or sooner!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Finally my motor arrived tonight! It was very strange, not the usual EMS shipping, arrived by UPS, just wish I had received a tracking number so I knew when to expect it.

***EDIT!!*** I just realized that this was sent to me UPS Next Day Air!! Not sure what that cost, but I know it wasn't cheap! Kudos to Golden Motor for doing that much since it was so late.

Weird but very well padded packing (they put a layer of bubble wrap on the OUTSIDE of the cardboard box, but still managed to damage the wiring (from the looks of it, the heavy motor of almost 19 lbs! must have fallen on the wires since the cut in the shrink wrap is so close to the casing, at least 2 hall wires are cut in half).

I will have some pics tomorrow, still pretty under the weather, we all seem to be getting the stomach flu at different times and then passing it around in the family, at least I know why I am sick!

I put the motor in behind the bike seat of my recumbent, and it fits with better than an inch to spare!

It's very compact despite the weight, and I am glad of it, just means more copper inside to soak up heat.

[valsislav]

My Burley Canto with an old sensorless geared hubby.

[LI-ghtcycle]

My Burley Canto with an old sensorless geared hubby.

Nice video!

Interesting perspective of the back facing camera, looks like it made for a very solid shake-free mounting too.

Feeling a bit better today, gonna have some pictures later on.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Here's a pic of the motor, not many exciting pics to come until I get the pedicabs finished, but here ya go.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok, I had a great brain storming session with the neighbor, and here is the game plan: (feel free to critique!)

I'm going to to remove the bolt-on brackets and add a simple " T " shaped bracket on the bottom, and a connecting rod on the side of the motor as it's going to be hanging most of it's weight on the left side to line up the drive sprocket. (this is just an out-line of the bracket shape, I might not have an actual " T " on top, and leave material in the corners of the top as to keep from making places for the bracket to fatigue, the pic is cropped I'm too lazy to fix it, but the slots you see are where T-Clamps will go through and attach to the 2in. main tube of the frame)



And then I might use two of the bolts on the end cover to make a hanger to keep it fro being able to moving up and down. (This will attach to the side of the seat bracket)

[LI-ghtcycle]

Slow and steady wins the race right? Well, slow anyway when it comes to this build.

I got the wires repaired and ground down the 420 motorcycle sprocket on it to run single speed bicycle chain, and I am really pleased with the results!





It didn't seem to be going as well as I wanted at first (not exactly an exact science using a belt sander to take the better part of 1/10th of an inch off) but it really came out great, and with-in a thousandth or two!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well I had a very good development today! I got some of the motor mount finished, and I discovered an easy way to make a much better mount to the frame than the original T-Clamp design, I never really liked that idea, and now I have come up with something different by using a hole saw on recycled 1/2 x 3 in steel tubing from a exercise bike (Ideally I would use aluminum tubing, but free is a very good price! )

I will cut the diameter of my main tube (2 in) into the steel near the top of one end, and create a clamp with 2 bolts that will be resting on a metal shielded no-hub clamp used with cast iron vent pipe like this:



available at any hardware store, so that the rubber of the clamp will be against the frame with the metal shield to prevent my clamps cutting into the boot and scratching the paint.

I promise to have some pics tonight, but for now I will be building my clamps!

The best part of this, is it will give me an easily accessible base to later build a kick-stand mount.

[LI-ghtcycle]

As promised pics!





(Starting to look like something now eh? )





Rule # 1 ... when using a 2 in hole saw in a drill press, ESPECIALLY one with really aggressive bi-metal type teeth, HOLD ON to the part really firm!
(I forgot this rule momentarily, and was reminded when the piece spun with the drill press and reminded me to hold on tighter next time! amazing it didn't break the skin!)
Rule # 2 .... if your going to forget to hold on, at LEAST have a heavy welding glove on so you don't get smacked so hard!







This is just the first of 2 mounts that will have the black rubber boot trimmed down to just slip over my 1.8 in main tube with metal sleeve to prevent the mount from digging into the rubber, and I will have to notch one to make room for the rear brake cable, but other than that, it's done!

The extra 2 in or so of mount will hang down to serve as a part of the platform that will have the kickstand bolted through. Not sure how I will beef up the square tubing for that or if I will just have another piece of 1/4 in aluminum for it to attach to, but either way it's going to make attaching the kick stand a breeze!

[LI-ghtcycle]

More pics!

I was able to stream-line the design a bit, and eliminate the need for a support on the left side with the fitted clamps, as the motor is more centered than I thought previously, (a lot less left side biased) the front mounts are spreading a bit, so I will have some tabs welded onto them so they can't spread, but other than that, it's looking pretty strong.



(Here I am turning the no-hub boot inside out and have trimmed off the rib in the middle)



Coming along!









Unfortunately, it's a bit high since I went with the standard mounts instead of making a totally new one.

Sitting on the seat, it just barely bottoms out and touches the motor, not good!

I will take off another inch here to allow it to slide back, but it's so perfect now! Wonderful chain tension, I might have to use a roller to guide the pedal chain a little to the right, but even right now it would only be enough to make a little noise and annoy, not enough to really cause a problem.

[sico]

Hi LI,

this is a cool looking project and well executed

The stickers say 650W but the aspect and apearance of the motor mounts from this pic:



make it look more like the 800W. Do the dimensions of the motor you have agree with the dimensions for the 650W?

Just curious, maybe you got more watts for you buck after the Golden shipping mess up.

Simon.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hi LI,

this is a cool looking project and well executed

The stickers say 650W but the aspect and apearance of the motor mounts from this pic:



make it look more like the 800W. Do the dimensions of the motor you have agree with the dimensions for the 650W?

Just curious, maybe you got more watts for you buck after the Golden shipping mess up.

Simon.

Holy @E$@#$~!!

You're right! I never occurred to me to check the length since I was so focused on the width for fitting purposes, and you know what, the "normal trike" they referred to must mean to them more of a "pedicab" trike, and this motor is the brushless big brother to the pedicab motors I was working on!

No wonder it's so gawd awfully heavy! The motor they were supposed to send is just under 15 lbs, this one is just under 20lbs!

Well, now my calculations are even further out of whack, this baby is gonna be geared for 50 MPH!

Too bad I won't be pushing it with enough juice for that kind of speed, might have to try it once though, just to see!

P.S. Thank you for the kind words, and your keep eye! I hope to have less or maybe even no need for any cooling with the extra 5lbs of copper!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, just a seat of the pants guess, but sure enough, I ran the gear calc, and it comes to 49.6 MPH in max overdrive of the NuVinci, unfortunately, this motor also makes less torque than the 650W (I'm building a cargo/touring bike, I want maximum torque) but it might work ok, I'm going to ask GM what it will take to get me the motor I ordered, and I'm guessing they will want another $169 .... but I think I will check with the local GM dealer first, they might have a motor similar in stock that I can actually look at.

Thanks again for pointing out the size of the motor! Not sure how I managed to miss that, maybe because I was just so happy to get a motor at all after such a long wait.

[LI-ghtcycle]

OH! I almost forgot, I was messing with the motor to see how well it spins, and the pedals don't really have more drag on them than a DD hub motor, and then I couldn't turn them at all!!

NuVinci tells me that my N171B (Model just prior to the newest N360) 350% hub will freewheel internally, and the fact that phase wires being crossed locked it up tells me different, either that, or it freewheels very poorly and under a ton of resistance, which is not going to be bad at all if I am using regen braking.

Maybe at speed it won't have as dramatic effect, but I'm really hoping it does and I will have the regen braking I was designing this project for.

[Rassy]

Looking good LI. Hope that larger faster motor works out ok, sounds like a real pain to get the one you were after.

Sitting on the seat, it just barely bottoms out and touches the motor, not good!

At least the motor can isn't spinning like my 9C does, which is mounted in about the same position.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Looking good LI. Hope that larger faster motor works out ok, sounds like a real pain to get the one you were after.

Sitting on the seat, it just barely bottoms out and touches the motor, not good!

At least the motor can isn't spinning like my 9C does, which is mounted in about the same position.

True! I think I have solved that issue now, and I didn't even have to remove the bracket! I removed the fender mount, slid back the mounts as far as possible, and then drilled and tapped a hole into the back and attached the fender, now I have a fender that has a decent amount of space between it and the tire.

I found some information on the GM website on this motor, but it looks like it's not easy to find a replacement sprocket, I might just have an adapter made so I can thread on bicycle track cogs/freewheels onto the motor and retain all the normal manner of a using bicycle parts available just about anywhere.

If I go that route, I will very easily attach the hub portion of a track hub with the LH threaded locking ring and never have to use locktight to hold on my track cogs.