Evolution of Skill....

[GCinDC]

Just since we're on the topic of the battery, a couple of Q's..:
- what C ratings do those prismatic A123's have for discharge/charge?
- So it's ONE 24s pack made of a 15s and a 9s subpack, with one BMS, right?
- How low will the BMS let an individual cell go? 3V? Is it a signalab?
- Did you get one charger or two? How many amps are those?
- How wide are the packs? How wide is the bike frame at it's widest?
- Does cell man have a site or just work off email?

Should be a nice weekend! Have fun and RECORD!

[gtadmin]

... Does cell man have a site or just work off email?

click me!

[Lenk42602]

Just since we're on the topic of the battery, a couple of Q's..:
- what C ratings do those prismatic A123's have for discharge/charge?
- So it's ONE 24s pack made of a 15s and a 9s subpack, with one BMS, right?
- How low will the BMS let an individual cell go? 3V? Is it a signalab?
- Did you get one charger or two? How many amps are those?
- How wide are the packs? How wide is the bike frame at it's widest?
- Does cell man have a site or just work off email?

Should be a nice weekend! Have fun and RECORD!

Have to get ready for work, but here's a few answers as I know them to be.

1.) Continuous discharge rate should be round 12-15c?

Specifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Normal Voltage: 3.3V
Capacity (1C to Vmin=2.0V): minimum 18.5AH, typical 20Ah
Dimensions(mm):7.2 x 161 x 227
Weight (kg): 0.495
Volume (l): 0.263
Operating Temperature: -30c to 55C
Storage temperature: -40C to 60C
Number of Cycles : minimum 300, typical 2000
Max Discharge (SOC and Temp dependent): 300Amps
Wh/kg: 130.5
Wh/Cell: 64.6
Wh/Liter: 245.6
Self Discharge @ 25C: <2%/month
Nominal Voltage and maximal / minimal discharge voltage (recommended and critical) 3.3 nom, 3.6 max, 4.0 critical. 2.0V min, 1.0V critical
Nominal Capacity: 18.5Ah min, 19.6ah nom
Internal resistance: 2 mOhm nom
Specific Power (nominal, W/kg): 2400
Maximal current discharge rate: 300 cont, 750 peak
Charge conditions: maximum voltage, charge current CC-CV to 3.6V. 300A max, 600 peak

2.) Yes, just based on my frame limitations with the highest capacity pack as a goal, with Cell Man's relentless input, we determned that the best/maximum config was 24s using these 20ah packs. Based on the actual cell dimensions, + the shrink wrap and safety packing, it turned out that the 15s/9s sub-pack arrangement was the answer.

3.) There is one single 24s BMS. I do not know yet how far it lets each cell go. I am sure Paul (Cell Man) will be able to answer that. Don't now if its a Signalab. The BMS handles HVC,LVC, and cell balancing when charging.
4.) I have one charger, connected by one anderson connector, capable of charging at 6 amps. He also offers a 4 amp charger. The charger is a little bigger than any of the chargers i have had before, but I could certainly still throw it in a back pack. If I needed more range, say for example if I decide to ride to see you in DC and opportunity charge along the way...
5.) Pack Dimensions are listed above, but the shrink wrap insulation should add at least 1-1.5mm. I had Paul reduce the amount of packing due to my frame design and the security it provides for the cells. My frame at its widest point is 113mm. the 15s pack is 115 mm. Crank set clearance on each side is 4-5mm. Real tight.

6.) You have seen Paul's website, but the bulk of my conversations (24+) were through email.

At the end of the day, This pack can handle any amount of continuous amps I intend to draw from it, now or in the future. I am not expecting to pull more thn about 45 amps continuous from my 5303, and at most for 30-45 seconds or so. In the future, if I go for a slower wind and decided to bump the amps to say, 80-90 it will do just fine, as will my controller. It has a BMS that will keep the cells in check. Stable chemistry, and ll I need to do is plug in the charger.

A bit heavier than Li Po, but less hassle, and my girl is big boned anyway.....

edit - just proof read my post. made a few typos....

[cell_man]

I think Len covered most stuff.

The BMS has 2.0V LVC, it is 80A continuous rated with Max current close to 200A. The 12 and 16S BMS I generally supply have proven to be very reliable, conservatively rated, reasonably priced and compact. I checked the pack capacity before it shipped and it came out at just over 20Ah. Len's pack came out at circa 13kg or just under which isn't bad for a finished pack, 79V nominal, 20Ah including packing and a pretty high power BMS, for a safe, long last chemistry with big current potential, that is pretty good I reckon. Look forward to hearing how Len finds the performance when he hits it with some descent current.

[Lenk42602]

well, on my way in to work thursday, my 1st floor tenant let me know his water heater just exploded.
left early from work friday, had it installed by 7 pm. Too tired to mess with the bike, I woke up this am, ran around all morning with the missus, cooked a nice brunch, and then finally got back to squeezing the controller inside the frame along with the batts. it is extremely tight. here's what I had to do:

- change the angle the power leads connecting the two sub packs together on the 9s pack to exit horizontal(out the side) vs vertical (off the tops). had to carefully slot the shrink tube on the sub packs, and then tape down the leads/balance wires to be well secured and insulated. This was necessary as the main power wires connecting the packs on the 9s side was interfering with the controller fitment.
- massage and elongate the mounting holes for the 9s sub pack nose piece/cowl, fit, remove, massage, fit, remove, massage, etc.
- sand down the top cover panel inside that the controler mounts to, in order to gain about 1.0 - 1.25mm of wiggle room between the controller and 9s sub pack
- remove the end caps on my 18 fet LYEN controller, elongate the holes, and drop the end cap flush with the bottom of the controller, gaining another 1mm.

yes. this is how tight it is in that frame.

i was getting a bit frustrated today, with all this effort in order to massage every thing to fit; if the frame dimensions were just 15mm larger in all directions I would be done. But they are not.

Anyway. I took a deep breath this evening, sat back, and reminded myself that this build will be done when it is done. The last thing I want to do is stuff this battery and controller into the frame in haste, overlook something that may cause problems down the road due to not stress relieving or routing the wiring perfectly (shorts, solder fractures,chaffing, etc) and have 80 volts worth of probems on my hands.

Controller fits in frame now. Took about 6 hours of work to get to this point. Sure doesn't feel like I completed much today.

I'm done for today. Tomorrow -
1. soldering the controller connectors for the hub motor
2. industrial velcro install on the two sub packs so that they can be connected to each other and the side panels
3. install high density foam in the open spaces around the sub packs
4. insulate and secure the BMS
5. notch out the speed nuts so that the can sit flush into the mounting tabs and reduce chaffing risk on the sub pack insulation
6. install the key switch on the top cover panel

Plug the mofo in and see what happens.

later,

len

[Lenk42602]

Got everything wired this afternoon. After a test run, some hall/phase wire testing, I finally reflashed the controller correctly and everything is all set.



let the games begin.....

Len

[GCinDC]

she looks a lot thinner than i thought! for some reason from the photos i thought she was twice that wide. looking good. i like that big screen CA too.

[Lenk42602]

Bit of an update

for all intents and purposes, I must say this bike is COMPLETE.

I have logged about 70 miles so far and everything is working together well. Wanted to slowly ride the the bike to be safe and i think everything is all setlled in.

Took it to a local bike shop owner and long-time friend while out on a ride ths week - he has watched the evolution of my bikes from the beginning. It was fun watching the HUGE grin on his face when he was wipping the bike around his shop like a mad man

of course I then had to stop at my dad's place, my mechanic's garage, the UPS guy that dropped off packages in my garage while I was working all the time - just about everyone that heard about this machine.

Last week while at work, I met a fellow that used to race superbikes and he stopped in again today - of course he had to see it- with wild eyes, I explainedto him the battery specs, power consumption characteistics, pikes peak, all the nutballz on the west coast racing, even mentioned Jay64, as he said the riders are a pretty close knit group and really know each other.
Anyway, I gave him the link to our forum. Hope he shows up, might be some good exposure..Just got home a little while ago. I have a ~10 mile ride home on a narrow two lane 45 mph stretch. In the dark. This machine hauls ass - so much so that an 18 wheeler could not pass me.... :

In the coming weeks I would like to get some photos up. Plan on getting a camera sooner for video footage, but santa is bringing that....

I also plan on formally acknowledging all the skilled folks who helped this machine come to fruition. Without them this would not have been possible.

Thanks ES!

Len

[AussieJester]

Great to hear its performing as good
As out looks Lenk I very much look forward
To more pics and video. Is Santa bringing you a
GoPro is he?

KiM

[Lenk42602]

go pro - yes.

Santa is getting a pro deal through the shop for one of those mofos.

his old lady is footing the bill, MRS Clause!!!!

I have the week of 11/13 off, so I will probably be doig some fun stuff then. Until then, I have been thinking more and more about taking this bike to pikes peak instead of the mid drive idea I have been working through recently.

BTW AJ, thanks for your support! Wish I could join one of the Aussie role calls!

len

[Microbatman]

Couple of updates:

My 16" wheel arrived from John yesterday. What you see here is a 5303 (old style) laced to a steel 16" moped rim, 1 cross. He did a great job. Thanks John! Tires are BMX, 20" X 2.4", these: model IA-2021 - http://www.innovatires.com/menu.php?xCPId=B06
.

Confused about the wheels
Tires are marked 20 inch. But laced to a 16 inch rim.
What size is the rim you are using? 16 or 20?

Great build love to see MORE video.

[Whiplash]

I could be wrong, but I think 16" moped wheels equal 20" bike tires. They are measured differently but are essentially the same size..

[AussieJester]

I could be wrong, but I think 16" moped wheels equal 20" bike tires. They are measured differently but are essentially the same size..

Correct...the ID of motorcycle tire is measured
where as bicycle tires OD is measured IIRC?
essentially close too same size a motorcyle tire is
good to go on 20 in bicycle rims...

KiM

[Lenk42602]

Go Pro should be hear possibly when I get home from work tonight. If not it will be in my hands monday. Videos up soon!

[GCinDC]

Go Pro should be hear possibly when I get home from work tonight. If not it will be in my hands monday. Videos up soon!

what mounts?

[beast775]

Its going top be excellent seeing youre machine with a go-pro! yeehaw.i like a tight fit in the middle.

[Lenk42602]

Go Pro should be hear possibly when I get home from work tonight. If not it will be in my hands monday. Videos up soon!

what mounts?

Its 54 degrees and sunny here in Pttsburgh. I FLEW home on the bike, anticipating my new camera's arrival....

Fuddlesticks. no dice.

Greg, I Pro-Dealed the HD2 Motorsports Edition - I figured there was enough mounting options to get me started, and I could probably cobble something together if a better set up is needed.

Most likely it will be at the shop on Monday. I am off, but am planning a pedal - bike ride so I might swing by the shop, rig it up and test it out then.

Len

[fractal]

Hello Len, If you were to start over, are there any things you would have done differently?

[Lenk42602]

Hello Len, If you were to start over, are there any things you would have done differently?

Couple of considerations before I answer:

- I designed this frame /chassis around the X5. As a result, from the get go, I was looking at more of a moped than a bicycle-frame -derived ebike.
- Although I plan to in the future, I still have not yet "taken it in the woods" be it on dirt roads, single track, etc. This bike was planned as primarily a commuter.
- I also designed some variability in exactly how the frame can be spec'd particlularly with fork/wheel size selections.
- Also designed the bike to run dependably, and run, and run, not to produce neck snapping accelleration. No melted wires, shorted fets, blown bicycle tires, etc...

Those thing said:

- even though I built it knowing it would be heavy, Its heavy. About dead even with a stock Bomber. I probably could have gotten away with an even lighter guage tubing and mor extensive gussetting, but I can't see shedding more than a few pounds on the frame design while still maintaining the robustness I have.
- The wheels/hub motor/fork would be the only real way to shed some pounds. get a lighter hub motor, use bicycle rims/tires, and perhaps use a single crown long travel fork.
- All of these things start to compromise the original mantra of "strength before all else" when being altered.
- The only other place for weight savings would be going to Lipo, and this would probably be the greatest opportunity to lose about 10-15 pounds.

I am committed to this bike only, so as things break I will be replacing them. As an example, I am planning on taking a stab at Pikes peak with this bike this year. If I burn up the x5 in the process, its a perfect opportunity to upgrade hub motors. If I do so I may potentialy increase wheel diameter to 17" rear, 19" or 21" front. The primary reason I went with 16" rims was the efficiency gain laced the 5303, primarily commuting, and the cross compatibility of 16" moped rims with both moto and bicycle tires. I have pretty much come to see that when encountering consistent speeds of 30 mph or more, the sidewall strength of motorcycle/moped tires is a personal non-negotiable for me, even at the penalty of added weight. Also, if and when my A123 pack ever dies, which I just cannot imagine happening over the next 5 years, I would begin the process of selecting the "big thing" in batts at that time.

All things considered, the geometry of the bike feels like a nice balance between - I can take my hands off the bars at 35-40 mph and the beast is rock steady. The suspension pivot locations are near enough to optimal that the front and rear work well together. And I have yet to scrape the pedals in the turns in the high (#1) rear suspension setting. I have the controller limited to I think 53 amps, gets me to speed quicky enough. I am sure i can go higher, but I this is a nice level to have some comuter level high performance while not having to worry about components and wires getting too hot and melting....

Gotta suit up and head in now,


Len

[cell_man]

Hi Len,

I can't see how you would lose 10-15lbs going to RC Lipo unless you sacrifice some capacity. Your pack is almost 1.6KWhrs and weighs about 13kg including BMS etc. RC Lipo is about 140Whrs/kg at the pack level, A123 20Ah cells are 132Whrs/kg at the cell level, roughly 120Whrs/kg at the pack level with BMS etc. By the time you've limited the DOD and the charge voltage of the LiPo packs, the differences are not gonna be much if anything and definitely nowhere near the 35 to 50% weight saving you suggested.

Looking forward to seeing some video, I bet she moves along very nicely, job well done

Cheers
Paul

[Lenk42602]

Hi Len,

By the time you've limited the DOD and the charge voltage of the LiPo packs, the differences are not gonna be much if anything and definitely nowhere near the 35 to 50% weight saving you suggested.

Looking forward to seeing some video, I bet she moves along very nicely, job well done

Cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul, regarding my LiPo assertion that was just a WAG, but i was in my mind assuming less capacity.... So thanks. Somewhere I sketched up what I could fit in the frame with 6p and 5 p packs.

Regardless, The pack you built for this has been performing flawlessly. As a matter of fact it is on the charger right now after getting back from work.



still don't know what that hellish clacking sound is from my camera. Anyway, thats the last of the crappy grainy vids.....



BTW, if you had not gatthered by now, I returned to reality for a bit and decided to re-sell the mac I purchased from you. Can't be building ebikes every year! I decided to use this machine for Pikes Peak instead of a purpose built bike......

Len

[Lenk42602]

....and now a walk around with the GO PRO:


had an unplanned-for kitchen remodeling project these last few days - had to tear out my cabinets to fix a sink drain behind a wall. Old dishwasher (Aimee) is retiring.... new one (frigidaire) is getting installed the next few days.

Anyway, fiddling with this camera made me realize I need some pointers on how to optimize th footage I take. I have created a new topic in the general discussion area, so please throw any help out there that you can.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35437&p=516821&hilit=video+how+to#p516821

Tomorrow there should be snow on the ground when i pedal my way into work. I am going to attempt to record the pedal bike commute and see what happens...

[ohzee]

I would have to say that is pretty close to perfection in my mind.

Looks like something that could be commercialized to some degree.

Great work. Is it hard staying out of that camera's field of view ?

[johnrobholmes]

I gotta agree fully on the wheel comments. The more and more I ride the less I like bicycle tires over 30mph. Sure, they do the job and are lighter. I just feel like I'm gambling on every fast turn. Since I have a stack of moped rims and tires as big as my bicycle stacks, I don't have much to stop me from using moped weight stuff.

[Lenk42602]

JRH, you can't mess around where the rubber meets the road.....

Ohzee, thanks for the compliments. I love this thing!

len