Ebike lighting and power -- a discussion

[hillzofvalp]

I have a new 100W bmw e30 (late 80s early 90s) headlamp laying around. They are the round ones. I thought it would make a nice headlight, but i feel 100W is too much for an ebike!!!!! Some of the Xenons run at 55W.. Also some HIDs down at 35W.. anything lower for H1 bulbs?

update: I just tried it outside at night and BOY is it a nice beam! I can see for blocks! I may have to have a dedicated 12V supply since my dc-dc is only good for 3A.. this thing sucks almost 9A.




(moderator edit: This post and those following were split off from a discussion started over here:
viewtopic.php?p=496040#p496040
at the request of multiple members)

[amberwolf]

(LEDs just don't seem bright enough for me.. Or at least not as bright as a 100w Halogen or Xenon.).

I'm guessing you just haven't tried the right LEDs. I'm using a set of "12VAC" MR16 LED white bulbs from Texaspyro at 12.3Vmax/11Vmin in place of the original automotive incandescent 1357s in CrazyBIke2's scooter/motorcycle turn signals, and they are bright enough even thru the amber lenses to light up the direction I am turning into very well (like having a second headlight pointed in that direction!). They're brighter than most car/truck turn signals, excepting only the brightest of the OEM LED signals, and are clearly daylight visible in any lighting conditions. Certainly many times brighter than the incandescents they replaced (even when I had those incandescents at 16.4Vmax).


Still using a car headlight (~50w each filament, usually using only one) for the main headlight, though, until I get optics worked out for a good beam out of a repurposed LED spotlight.

I have a new 100W bmw e30 (late 80s early 90s) headlamp laying around.

Are you running both filaments in it or just one? Usually the low-beam is only 50W, and the high-beam adds another 50W. Also, if you lower the voltage running to it, it'll lower the current draw. But it will also dramatically lower the brightness, and change the color downwards into the yellow.

[hillzofvalp]

No.. the e30s had separate housings for the high beams. 100W Lows. Looks so good, but would drain almost 5-10% of pack capacity. I wish I could run some cheap 35W HIDs... but I can't seem to find a single bulb with a single ballast for it.. I would have to get a complete conversion kit. Edit: actually amazon has some universal ballasts and single bulbs.. bringing in total to under $30. Another 7 A123 cells at $6/cell would do the same thing, and I could run it at 100W. Or I can just run it at 55W with a cheap incandescent replacement and forget about it.

[sangesf]

No.. the e30s had separate housings for the high beams. 100W Lows. Looks so good, but would drain almost 5-10% of pack capacity. I wish I could run some cheap 35W HIDs... but I can't seem to find a single bulb with a single ballast for it.. I would have to get a complete conversion kit. Edit: actually amazon has some universal ballasts and single bulbs.. bringing in total to under $30. Another 7 A123 cells at $6/cell would do the same thing, and I could run it at 100W. Or I can just run it at 55W with a cheap incandescent replacement and forget about it.

I'm running a 12v 35ah SLA battery for my accessories at the moment, so I don't have to worry about the amperage from the lights and directionals.. I don't really have more than 4 hours of motor batteries anyways.
As soon as I feel like it, I'll replace it with 12v 60AH Thunderskys I recently acquired. (4 - 3.2v 60Ah ones)... I'll change out the SLAs for the TSs when my new sub amp and diamond plate aluminum boxes come in.

[hillzofvalp]

that must be nice.. but how much does your bike weigh?!?! 100 lbs? My build (above) doesn't have space for a lead acid battery. I think I'm going to machine an enclosure to hold my e30 lamp.. a nice looking one.. and have a built in compartment for a small lipo pack that I have. And by the way: it could very well be a high-beam bulb.. I was mistaken. The e30s I thought had high beams coming from the bottom near the fog lights... but it appears 2 of the 4 circles were for high beams.

[sangesf]

LOL.. I WISH my bike only weighed 100lbs..
More like 140 with everything on it.. Will be 10lbs lighter with the 12v 60AH Thinderskys and the Tread Plate aluminum boxes. But I basically run 72v 20ah (Soon to be 84v or 96v), so weight really isn't an issue.

On a side note, I'll be looking for a fog light setup with a 35w Xenon bulb, as long as it's REALLY cheap..

[hillzofvalp]

Wow, that's heavy. I have to carry my bike up a couple floors, and 60-70 lbs is practically impractical. The 35W headlights I believe are just the HIDs, which require a ballast to convert dc to AC. If there is a bulb that is 35W and NOT HID then please let me know. I don't know the terminology.. maybe xenon is hid.

edit: what about this guy (35W)?
http://www.amazon.com/HELLA-HLA-H831352 ... 44&sr=8-14

I was just talking to my dad, and he said that this housing and bulb combo I have is illegal for low beam.. it's a "city light" type that's popular in europe.

[sangesf]

Most states (I think you're in Indiana..which is one of those "most states") just want your front light to be able to be seen from at least 500' away.. So, if your light can be, it's legal.. There are no "lumen laws" that I've ever seen.. LOL.

[Alan B]

Most states (I think you're in Indiana..which is one of those "most states") just want your front light to be able to be seen from at least 500' away.. So, if your light can be, it's legal.. There are no "lumen laws" that I've ever seen.. LOL.

Really? There are DOT approvals for car lights. Lots of aftermarket lights are illegal. And European standards are quite different.

[sangesf]

Most states (I think you're in Indiana..which is one of those "most states") just want your front light to be able to be seen from at least 500' away.. So, if your light can be, it's legal.. There are no "lumen laws" that I've ever seen.. LOL.

Really? There are DOT approvals for car lights. Lots of aftermarket
lights are illegal. And European standards are quite different.

We're talking about a front light for his "moped" (In Indiana).
Don't care what the DOT requirements are for cars, just his bike.

[Alan B]

We were talking lights made for cars.

On a bike use a good bright LED or two. A couple of 900+ lumen LEDs work wonders. Car lights are too heavy and power hungry and designed for 60 mph plus.

[hillzofvalp]

This lamp is actually quite light.. It would look sweet and it was FREE. I will try to run it at a lower voltage and see what effects that has on the wattage and light temperature. I have a 55W bulb installed and it pulls around 4A. not bad if I don't need it for very long. 55Wh is a little more than a mile for me on my big 29er.. i would never be riding for an hour with the light on.. so lets say it consumes half that.. or about 1/2mile off of the 15-20 mile range

[amberwolf]

Car lights are too heavy and power hungry and designed for 60 mph plus.

Yep. But they do work, if you don't mind that. (especially for the extremely budget-limited like me).

[sangesf]

With my current setup I'm about to install... (Pun intended)
I can run theoretically, for 3 hours straight (60 miles, WHILE DOING all of these things at the same time.)
1.) Front and Rear lights constantly running.
2.) Blinkers / Brake light when needed.
3.) Play my radio continuously.. (Radio, 2 speakers, 10" sub and amp at 3/4 volume (re: kinda loud - [50w each for regular speakers and 75w for sub] RMS).

I've tried using LED lights instead of incandescents and they just don't seem as "full of light"...

[sangesf]

We were talking lights made for cars.

On a bike use a good bright LED or two. A couple of 900+ lumen LEDs work wonders. Car lights are too heavy and power hungry and designed for 60 mph plus.

I'll tell you what...
Find me an LED Headlight that's as bright (and has the same "field of vision") as a 100w Halogen Headlight (Meaning I need it to light up, not only to 150' ahead of me, but also 20' to either side) and costs less than $9 and I'll buy one and never use a Halogen again...
(Or give me a cost comparison between a really good LED headlight and a 35w Xenon HiD in terms of the same lumen production).

P.S. I think a Halogen 55w bulb produces about 1600 lumens and my 100w produces 2900 lumens!

P.P.S. A 35w HiD Xenon bulb produces an amazing 3,850 lumens!!!!

[Alan B]

MagicShine 900's are pretty amazing (geomangear.com, dealextreme). The Cycle Lumenator (ebikes.ca) is also impressive, and runs directly off the high voltage pack. Small, light, efficient and bicycle compatible. Use 10-15W. Not as cheap as halogen, but what's your life worth.

This discussion is off topic here, might be best to move to a separate thread. There are already threads on ebike lights.

[veloman]

I use a $30 "900 lumen" flashlight
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/spiderfire ... 8650-19767

I was on multiuse path and a guy walking with his gf said to her he thought a car was passing them.
My thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32146&hilit=+flashlight


It's good for 30mph. If you're going 50 in complete darkness, then you will want more.

[sangesf]

I use a $30 "900 lumen" flashlight
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/spiderfire ... 8650-19767

I was on multiuse path and a guy walking with his gf said to her he thought a car was passing them.
My thread: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... flashlight


It's good for 30mph. If you're going 50 in complete darkness, then you will want more.

I use (at this exact second) a $9 1900Lumen 55w halogen that you can see literally for a mile.. So that's what I'll stick with..
(I'm a bit prejudiced only because I have the (12v-35ah-SLA) battery power capable of running it anyways.. Soon to be ugraded to 12v 60ah Lifepo4. )

P.S. I've noticed that once you start getting into the 1000+ lumens arena with LEDs, the amps start going up.. I saw a 1200lumen flashlight, like the one you're using, but it requires 2 amps anyways..
I think I'll stick with 55w Halogen, it's the best bang/lumens for the buck.

[Alan B]

The older LEDs have been about 70 lumens per watt, the newer ones are about 100 lumens per watt. Halogens are about 15 lumens per watt. Your choice.

[sangesf]

The older LEDs have been about 70 lumens per watt, the newer ones are about 100 lumens per watt. Halogens are about 15 lumens per watt. Your choice.

LOL..
That's not exactly true...
Halogen bulbs have a MIN of 35 lumens / watt..
NEWER - LEDs white.. Have never had more than 70 lumens / watt and those are EXPENSIVE ones... (the ones that put out the same as Xenon HiD (~110lm/watt) are REALLY expensive..)
Every single one of those normal costing LED flashlights say 900 Lumens and are $30...
My "Halogen bulb headlight" (re: ENTIRE HEADLIGHT ASSEMBLY PLUS BULB AND WIRES) is $18/pr or $9 each (actually replacement bulb is only $5) AND are double the lumens of those LED flashlights...
I have seen a $35 1200 lumen LED light, BUT it uses 12v - 2000mA. So ok, my halogen uses 12v - 4000mA to produce 18-1900 lumens and that LED one will do 2400 lumens for the same power but it's 4 times the price and only gets 500 lumens more..
A xenon hid Kit with (electric) balasts are about $25 and give 3,200 lumen output!

Yes, of course, LEDs CAN last a LOT longer, but I've never had any luck with regular LEDs, either the control board or the actual LEDs burn out!

But like I said..
Halogen/Xenon for the price can't be beat..
UNLESS you can show me an LED Headlight/lamp for a bicycle (or a car) that puts out 1900 lumens, full spectrum White Light for less than $10 AND THEN I'LL BUY IT.

[Alan B]

The older LEDs have been about 70 lumens per watt, the newer ones are about 100 lumens per watt. Halogens are about 15 lumens per watt. Your choice.

LOL..
That's not exactly true...
Halogen bulbs have a MIN of 35 lumens / watt..
NEWER - LEDs white.. Have never had more than 70 lumens / watt and those are EXPENSIVE ones... (the ones that put out the same as Xenon HiD (~110lm/watt) are REALLY expensive..)
Every single one of those normal costing LED flashlights say 900 Lumens and are $30...
My Halogen bulb is $18/pr or $9 each (actually replacement bulb is only $5) AND are double the lumens of those LED flashlights...
I have seen a $35 1200 lumen LED light, BUT it uses 12v - 2000mah.. So ok, my halogen uses 12v - 4000mah to produce 18-1900 lumens and that LED one will do 2400 lumens for the same power but it's 4 times the price and only gets 500 lumens more..
A xenon hid Kit with (electric) balasts are about $25 and give 3,200 lumen output!

Yes, of course, LEDs CAN last a LOT longer, but I've never had any luck with regular LEDs, either the control board or the actual LEDs burn out!

But like I said..
Halogen/Xenon for the price can't be beat..
UNLESS you can show me an LED Headlight/lamp for a bicycle (or a car) that puts out 1900 lumens, full spectrum White Light for less than $10 AND THEN I'LL BUY IT.

Your data may be out of date. Some of your numbers are beyond possible. 1900 lumens from 48 watts incandescent? That's 40 lumens per watt which is arc-lamp territory. Not likely, or not suitable for ebike use. You can push halogen bulbs to somewhat higher than usual efficiency by overvolting but at the first pothole they will fail. For vehicular use they must be operated at a lower temperature and efficiency for rugged service. Halogen bulbs are low cost, and the cycle replates tungsten onto the filament allowing the filament to have a longer life and be operated at a higher temperature than standard tungsten. But in the end it is still a tungsten bulb with only hot body efficiency.

A 12V 4A bulb is about 50 watts. At a generous 20 lumens per watt that is 1,000 lumens. That's bulb lumens, by the time you account for reflector loss and lens losses you get about 30-50% of that so maybe 500 lumens out the front. Hardly 1900 lumens, that's advertising smoke. A $30 "900 lumen LED" will also get about 500 lumens out the front. LEDs get about 70% out the front efficiency because much less of their light hits the reflector which is lossy. Filament bulbs radiate most of their energy into the reflector whereas LEDs concentrate it more out the front.

Why are you shouting?

By the way, it is not "12v 2000mah" - milliampere hours are incorrect units. Milliamps are the proper units for current. Time is not part of this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy shows about 16-20 lumens per watt for halogen incandescents. Car headlights at 60 watts are rated at 1,000 lumens which is 16 lumens per watt. Some halogen lights are more efficient but the filaments are not designed for the high vibration environment of a vehicle, especially a bicycle. How long do your bulbs last? Are they designed for vehicle service? Bicycle service?? Bicycles are harder than motorcycles or cars on their lights due to the lack of suspension and vehicle mass.

From the same chart above you can see LEDs rated up to 150 watts per lumen (not including power supply). Not all power supplies are efficient, many flashlights are optimized for low cost rather than high efficiency. Good power supplies are 80-90% efficient. Adjusting for power supply efficiency makes only a small difference in overall efficiency.

The filament lights that show 35 watts per lumen are very short life bulbs such as photofloods or projector bulbs. They are operated at extreme temperatures to increase the efficiency, have short operating lives, cannot handle vibration and are unsuitable for bicycle use.

Bulb life and efficiency is a trade-off. High efficiency bulbs run at higher temperatures and the tungsten is closer to its melting point and more sensitive to vibration and physical damage. Tough filaments are longer lived, operate at lower temperatures and produce less light.

LEDs are rated for tens of thousands of hours of service, while filament bulbs have a wide range of ratings from a few tens of hours for bright photofloods on up. The longer the bulb life the lower the efficiency. The gasses used in the bulbs help the life in a complicated tradeoff. Bulb operating voltage changes the life and vibration sensitivity characteristics significantly as it affects filament temperature.

It seems odd to spend many hundreds to a few thousands of dollars on batteries, motors, brakes, tires, controllers and only $9 on the lights. I would rather have something small, rugged and efficient on my bike or ebike. One tank of gas in a vehicle costs more than a good LED headlight. To each his own.

[sangesf]

Your first mistake is using Wikipedia as a reference..

Case and point..
Here is what Wikipedia says about the Florida electric bicycle laws..

Florida Bicycle Bicycle 60 mph 5,000 W No 10 No

According to Wikipedia, as long as I'm at least 10 y/o and my electric bicycle goes slower than 60mph and is <5,000w it is still only a bicycle?!?
Don't use Wikipedia.. LOL..

You still have yet to show me a decent LED headlight at a better price / better lumen output than my Halogen. You keep putting that off AND talk about how much I've spent on the rest of my bike, instead..

Also, you are right.. It was a TYPO.. (P.S. I edited the post) It was supposed to say 2000mA..

SHEESH, is the ONLY way, you can win a discussion, is by TRYING to belittle the other person? LOL... Try Again. Maybe try being a bit of a sesquipedalianist, that might work instead.. LOL

P.P.S. When did being "PC" become so ingrained into text input on the Internet..
FYI, The CAPS are for EMPHASIS, and NOT yelling.. (I know there is a bold HTML tag, but it's such a PITA to use, because I use my iPhone to post and I honestly, don't want to waste time and energy BOLDING everything I want to emphasize. -- LOL)

[Alan B]

Your first mistake is using Wikipedia as a reference..

Case and point..
Here is what Wikipedia says about the Florida electric bicycle laws..

Florida Bicycle Bicycle 60 mph 5,000 W No 10 No

According to Wikipedia, as long as I'm at least 10 y/o and my electric bicycle goes slower than 60mph and is <5,000w it is still only a bicycle?!?
Don't use Wikipedia.. LOL..

You still have yet to show me a decent LED headlight at a better price / better lumen output than my Halogen. You keep putting that off AND talk about how much I've spent on the rest of my bike, instead..

Also, you are right.. It was a TYPO.. (P.S. I edited the post) It was supposed to say 2000mA..

SHEESH, is the ONLY way, you can win a discussion, is by TRYING to belittle the other person? LOL... Try Again. Maybe try being a bit of a sesquipedalianist, that might work instead.. LOL

P.P.S. When did being "PC" become so ingrained into text input on the Internet..
FYI, The CAPS are for EMPHASIS, and NOT yelling.. (I know there is a bold HTML tag, but it's such a PITA to use, because I use my iPhone to post and I honestly, don't want to waste time and energy BOLDING everything I want to emphasize. -- LOL)

Wikipedia's data on luminous efficiency is consistent with other sources.

I did not offer to find a cheap LED. You can make your own LED bike light to save some dollars. An Iphone contract will buy a couple of good LED lights per month. I just looked up replacement halogen bulbs for my vehicle. At internet wholesale prices they run from $6 to $40 per bulb and many models are in the $20-30 range. Even in Halogen lights there is quite a range of price and quality. That is just for the bulb. One problem here is comparing the price of a fully complete light, ready for use, with a bulb that needs to be housed, socketed and wired for use. And comparing new highly efficient technology to old inefficient short-lived hot filament gear. One might expect to pay a bit more for newer and more efficient equipment.

I see GeoManGear is having a 20% off sale on most of their products, for those interested. The MagicShine 900 lumen lighthead only is about $36 and reportedly will run up to 16 volts. This includes the housing and mounts for bicycle use, and circuitry to regulate the current and indicate the battery status (for 2S lithium). The normal battery pack is 2S and some folks have indicated they use 3S or 12VDC. Of course a DC-DC converter would work as well.

Apologies for the OT content. Back to the regularly scheduled material.

[Racer_X]

The Topic here is Your Creation's Before & After Pics
This discussion is off topic here, There are already threads on ebike lights. Can you guys move your discussion to one of those?

[nicobie]

The Topic here is Your Creation's Before & After Pics
This discussion is off topic here, There are already threads on ebike lights. Can you guys move your discussion to one of those?

yea...