Buying from Mac, ElifeBike and BMS Battery

[greenspark]

I am up to three ebikes. As a novice two months ago, I thought it might be helpful for newbies if I document what I have learned.

2011 Greenspark Ulisse $1,230 new

Greenspark Ulisse.jpg (68.61 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

I bought our first ebike in October 2011, a black and silver Greenspark (Italy) Ulisse http://www.greenspark.it/ulisse.htm.html pre-made ebike. 250w Bafung motor, European spec, not that powerful up our steep hill. 27 kg. Front shocks, shock absorbent seat post, front disk brake, speed & battery display, full fenders, etc. Very nice, comfortable. Total discounted price at store in Italy: EUR1,100. 21% tax rebated at Rome Airport dropped the price to EUR 910 (about US$1,230) and the 30KG shipping as checked luggage on Emirates was free. My wife loves it. Very Euro looking even though it really is an Italian design using Chinese parts. Added a front basket and bike lock.

1996 Gary Fisher conversion $1,382 Mac 500W rear motor kit plus old bike

GF-BeforeAfter.jpg (82.5 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

The next was a MAC 500w rear motor kit (9 FET controller) 48W triangle battery on a 1996 Gary Fisher mountain bike converted to street use (street tires, fenders, rear view mirrors, removable wire basket, etc.). The Mac motor kit and battery cost about $1,363 including fast EMS shipping. PayPay transmitted on 28 October, Package arrived in New Zealand on 11 November. As an Englishman in China Paul had excellent communication and the kit arrives with all the connectors pre-installed, so it really is plug and play. The black painted motor looks fairly plain and utilitarian and the triangle fabric bag holding the battery makes the bike look like a kit - not a surprise since it is a kit. The performance makes it more like an electric scooter than an eBike. Pedalling is optional.

- Mac Torque Kit 1 26" rear DH19, 10T, 9 fet, full twist 3S, cruise, ebrakes $350
- Battery Triangle 16S 5P A123 1 $600
- Triangle frame bag 1 $30
- 48V 6A charger $72
- EMS Shipping $234 (2 boxes)

The wheel uses the older 7 speed gear cluster. Paul had offered to send me one, but I presumed my Gary Fisher gears would fit, which was an incorrect assumption. When I had a bike shop install a new cluster, they commented that this was old technology and the Chinese tended to be about 20 years behind. I cannot comment on this, so I quote it. In any case it works fine, and I hardly do any shifting at all. In fact, I wish I had a larger front gear as the motor drives the bike faster than I can effectively pedal. But at about NZ$200 to switch over, I figure I should save my money and buy a new bike one day. The kit arrived with no wiring diagram, and Paul went on a month vacation, so I had to fiddle a bit. The twist throttle has switches that do nothing, although it looks like they should be the on-off switches. Using plug-and-play, the battery remains on at all times, something that caused grief when I accidentally grabbed the handlebar to move the bike and twisted the throttle which promptly upended the bike and scratched the new rear fender. I had discovered that one set of wires had to be plugged into each other for it to run at all, thus I wired these into a boat toggle switch that allows me to shut off the battery when not in use. When Paul returns, I will ask for the wiring diagram. Performance is excellent for city streets, I can stay out of trouble. At stop lights I have to be careful to not pop a wheelie. It's no fun riding it on an outing with my wife, because I am always too far ahead. Which is why I then bought a third bike...

2011 Globe Specialized Live 1 with Cute100 front motor and BMS bottle battery $1,046 new -

eGlobeLive1.jpg (64.8 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

I was at the bike store getting the Gary Fisher gear cluster installed and the had this old-fashioned looking delivery bike for sale at half price. I picked it up expecting a heavy bike and was surprised that it was so light. Specs say it is about 29 pounds (13 kg). It was an unsold 2009 model (according to the sticker on the bottom), and it is designed to take heavy loads on the front which means it would be a good candidate for a front wheel drive motor. It has a single speed chain and an old-fashioned foot brake. It was the last one in size large, and it was attractive looking. I bought it on the spot and brought it home. Paul was on vacation for a month, so my choices in Chinese motors were more limited. Given the awful stuff written about the Golden motor and its huge physical size that screams look at me, I decided to go with the Cute 100 motor kit.

On 14 November I ordered the Cute 100 front motor kit from Steven Deng at ElifeBike.com because I read that he shipped faster than BMS bikes. It seems he used to work for them, and left to set up competition. I ordered the 100 instead of the 128 because of the size. I wanted it to look like a normal hub, and I was successful in this. On the same day, I ordered the 36v bottle battery kit ($199) from Judy Lui at BMSBattery.com. I told both Steven and Judy that I would document their performance in hopes that would avoid delays. In both cases I selected their cheapest air ship option with DHL. Somthing is happening with DHL because both came back to say that I needed to pay more and go with EMS (which I prefer because they use the post office, which is faster than the private carriers on this end). However, Steven came back with this on the 16th of November, while Judy did not ask for the additional shipping until 25 November. Nine days of doing nothing. Note that in China, domestic customers expect products to ARRIVE three days after they are ordered. BMS's treatment of overseas buyers shows a lack of respect. In the case of Steven, I telephoned him twice to get information on the EMS tracking number but found his command of English to be almost incomprehensible. I did not try to call Judy. I sent her several emails with questions, and it is apparent that she does not speak good English and can give no satisfactory answers. If you ask a question with a product number, she will tell you the price. Any other question is ignored. If you are persistent and include photographs, she replies with a flat "no". Questions regarding getting the EMS number are answered with "OK thanks". However, when it finally arrived their bottle battery looks great and using a tester I was able to figure out that port 1 & 2 are both live (+) and 3 & 4 are (-)... you have to solder the battery connector (provided) to power cable (not provided).

Bike (on sale) US-$525 (includes 15% NZ sales tax)
Cute 100F kit $109 (250~350W M100 Front E-Bike kit - Voltage: 36V - Power: 350W - Wheel size: 700C - Fork Size: 100mm Disk Brake Type Front-Drving(fit Disk Brake and Rim/V Brake) - Hall : Hall Sensor)
BMS Bottle bat - $199 36V 8.8Ah Bottlle battery pack with charger - AC Voltage : 200V~264V
KU63 Controller case - $3 (modified to house wires and electrical connectors)
Motor Kit EMS Shipping $128
Battery EMS Air Shipping - $82
Total $1,046

(Note that I probably would have saved on shipping had I purchased the motor kit from BMS (Steven does not carry the bottle battery) but I wanted to try out both vendors, and BMS is $128 for the same kit... and Steven supplied a 350W controller)

Steven's package arrived on Monday, 28th Nov.
Judy's package, ordered the same day as Steven's did not arrive until 3 December.

Mac (Paul the Englishman in China) arrived six days after ordered. Excellent communication and informative answers.
Elifebike (Steven Deng in China) arrived two weeks after ordered. Tried hard, but has difficulty with English.
BMS Bike (Judy Lui in China) arrived three weeks after ordered. Hmmm.

None arrived with any instructions or wiring diagrams, and only Steven's site has good downloads. I ordered a few extra things from Steven, including a thumb controller where I did not notice that one must specify the voltage so I got a 24v instead of a 48v. He has not replied to my email about this. I ordered a disk brake kit from Steven that fits the front motor. When I tried to turn the motor it would not turn. When I removed the disk bolts it would turn, so either there is a spacer I need, or the bolts are too long. I did not bother, but just removed the disk and instead installed the eBike brake handle (that cuts off the motor) for the existing front brake. The most serious problem was the diameter of the wheel shaft. It was bigger than the fork slot, which meant I had to use an angle grinder to very carefully shave away aluminium to get it to fit at all. For a novice, I recommend this be done by an expert (or pick a bike fork that fits) since this is the part that holds the wheel on the bike. Also, Steven's wheel needs a bit of truing. Paul's did not.

The controller box has a wiring diagram in Chinese, but Steven's web site has a set of downloads that shows what each wire does. It's slightly confusing, as he identifies the controllers by ID number, but that number is neither on the controller nor on the invoice, which instead describes it by performance (36v 9 fet). Turns out the "Wiring Diagram fit all of the controller" http://elifebike.com/upfile/dtpic/2010/9W/9UJ7.992VA/7UR9T0_KNFD8.pdf is the most useful. While the controller has all the appropriate connectors, the other ends do not (except for the motor). While this means one can easily cut the cables to fit, for a novice this can be off-putting. So here is my quick lesson in soldering:

I use a label maker http://www.amazon.com/Epson-LabelWorks-LW-300-Printer-C51CB69010/dp/B005J7Y6HW/ref=sr_1_5?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1323032615&sr=1-5 to label each set of wires. So the battery wire has red = hot, black = ground and orange = key (or in my case, the orange went to the red button on the thumb throttle. Press the button and it has power. Press again and it shuts off). These plastic labels prevent mistakes now, and will be of great help in the future when the pdf diagram is lost.

To solder I use a Ronson gas tech torch http://www.amazon.com/Ronson-Consumer-Products-80011-Torch/dp/B005UPA1E0/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1323032807&sr=1-3. It is fast, one-handed and it works.
For solder I recommend a 60/40 rosin core thin wire http://www.amazon.com/Qualitek-Rosin-Core-Wire-Solder/dp/B004GIDTK0/ref=sr_1_17?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1323032882&sr=1-17
To hold the parts together, I recommend a friend or a "helping hand" http://www.amazon.com/Excel-Double-Extra-Hands-Magnifier/dp/B0006N73G0/ref=sr_1_2?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1323032995&sr=1-2

Label the matching wire, so you know what to join together.
Measure the right length of cable and cut accordingly.
Select and test the right connector. Test before soldering.
Strip each wire and clamp one brass connector tab to hold wire in place before soldering.
Wrap the solder around where you intend to solder.
Heat the brass connector and then heat the solder until it melts.
This should cause the solder to flow in and among the wires and lock them into the connector.
Clamp the other tab and heat the solder so all is locked together.
Avoid a drip that when solid would prevent the brass connector from going into its plastic housing.
Assemble all, with the battery hookup going on last.
Test with the motor wheel not touching the ground (bike upside down is good).
If the motor does not turn, make sure the battery is charged, the switch is set to on, the orange battery wire is sending current to the red battery wire, the brake (motor cut-out) handle is not depressed and any keys wired in are switched on.
If the motor goes backwards, you wired the battery in reverse, swap red and black wires.

Once wired, I used a KU63 plastic controller case http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/365-ku63-controller-case.html I purchased from BMS to cover the wires. It is too small to hold the controller, but if you drill a 3/4" hole in one end, it will cover the wires and connectors, to keep them out of the weather and looking clean. The advantage of the Globe Specialized Live bike is the large wooden front tray. It makes it exceptionally easy to mount and hide the controller and wires. I fabricated a thin brass plate to prevent rain water flowing through the holes into the electronics and then used locknuts and stainless bolts to hold it all together. Below is a photograph of the motor, controller and wires.

eGlobeLiveElectrics.jpg (85.79 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

The resulting kit and bottle battery (8.8 Ah, 36 volt) brings the total weight of the bike to 19.6 kgs (43 pounds), substantially less than the 27.3 kg (60 pounds) Greenspark. The extra kgs on the front works because the front rack is designed to carry 20kgs rated and probably a lot more. The bottle battery puts that weight in the center and it looks like a thermos bottle. I was tempted to cover the bright silver bottle battery with some beautiful Italian book leather I have, but my wife, the designer in the family vetoed this, saying it looked great as is. The installation looks subtle and completely professional.

eGlobeLive1front.jpg (67.17 KiB) Viewed 3652 times

.

Test ride: Starting up our steep hill, the motor made loud gear noises that were amplified by the wooden deck of the front luggage carrier - it sounded awful. Once the hill flattened out, the noise dropped off and it was manageable. The speed is about the same as the Greenspark - perfectly matched and great for the leisurely country ride. The single-speed gear is all one needs with the motor. It is just powerful enough to make the hill manageable. It's the perfect country-going-into-the-village-bike, and the retro look fools people: "What a great restoration" was the first comment, the person presuming it was a 50 year old bike, not one freshly minted in Taiwan in 2009. The seat that came with it is awful, designed for the hunched over racer, not a town bike. Off it came, to be replaced by a 1972 Brooks Professional, which also is not a town bike seat, but a whole lot more comfortable.

Conclusion: It's clear that all three are still in the early stages of eBikes, sort of the IBM PC-XT era. In the bang for buck department the Cute 100 electrifies a bike for under $500 and gives enough power to flatten hills, but not take away the sense of biking. Best to buy the front wheel drive, since it is not powerful enough to lose traction in the wet, and a lot easier to install. The rear-drive high torque Mac is a whole different class - faster, serious power (and higher cost), but could use the design touch and a bit more refinement in throttle control. In customer support, Steven and Judy's language limitations are a real barrier to more sales. If you need support, buy Mac. In durability, I have no idea, but in the case of the Cute motors, they are cheap enough to replace rather than fuss about warranty claims. $109 for a nice rim, motor, throttle, brake lever and controller? Jeez, that's cheap. It's a pity the Cute kit is not supplied with attached connectors that one can shorten if need be, rather than expect the buyer to make up the connectors. I've put instructions on how to solder simply because not everyone knows how and if you get a wire wrong, it could fry something.

I probably have missed including important details, but hopefully, this is enough for a novice to get a sense of what is involved. Bottom line, if you have mechanical aptitude, buy a kit. If not, buy an eBike. Because I am technically in Asia, I went with Chinese products. They all delivered on their promise, albeit with a bit of uncertainty. Feel free to add other tips that I may have missed.

Important links:

Mac: http://www.emissions-free.com
BMS: http://www.bmsbattery.com
elife http://elifebike.com

UPDATE 25 January 2012 - The Cute100F motor from Steven Deng has quit. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36033&p=522845#p522845 for the problem. I'm in communications with Steven and we will see if he honours his obligations. $109 plus expensive shipping is no bargain if it only lasts six weeks. I've ordered a MXUS kit from Paul (cell man). Used slow-sea rate $43, so it will be a while before it arrives.

[dogman]

Nice work, Gives a good picture of what to expect from three different approaches.

[mrezzy]

Can you post specs for the max distance you can cover with that 36V 8ah battery no pedaling? and max mph?

[greenspark]

Can you post specs for the max distance you can cover with that 36V 8ah battery no pedaling? and max mph?

I generally pedal and use the motor for hills. Don't have a speed device. Where we live would not be reliable... lots of hills. Best to rely on a calculation.

[cell_man]

The twist throttle has switches that do nothing, although it looks like they should be the on-off switches. Using plug-and-play, the battery remains on at all times, something that caused grief when I accidentally grabbed the handlebar to move the bike and twisted the throttle which promptly upended the bike and scratched the new rear fender. I had discovered that one set of wires had to be plugged into each other for it to run at all, thus I wired these into a boat toggle switch that allows me to shut off the battery when not in use. When Paul returns, I will ask for the wiring diagram. Performance is excellent for city streets, I can stay out of trouble. At stop lights I have to be careful to not pop a wheelie. It's no fun riding it on an outing with my wife, because I am always too far ahead. Which is why I then bought a third bike...

I test all the kits before they go out. The integrated 3 speed and cruise which are located on the throttle are amongst the checks that are made, so I can only assume that whilst modifying the connections to make a power switch, something was changed to prevent those functions from working. I would suggest that any equipment is used in as supplied state initially before making any changes, the connectors can only be fitted in 1 way. Cruise is enabled by pressing the momentary green switch on the throttle, the 3 speeds are enabled by the red 3 position switch, there is not an on/off switch on the throttle, nor is there any connections to the throttle that could be used for a power switch.

There should be a linked plug on the battery to controller adapter cable (if there is not then please let me know and I can advise how this can be added). If the link is removed, the controller is powered down. A low current switch could be fitted here as a remote power switch, any sort of low current switch would suffice. With the controller disabled there is zero current drain. If the kit is too fast a lower speed setting will do the trick (if the function is working) and if the current levels are higher than required, the controller can be re-programmed for lower current. 3 speed settings are also programmable down to as low as 30%. Speed 1 is set to 50% as standard, speed 2 75%, speed 3 100%.

[cell_man]

Just to clarify 1 point. Mac only supply the bare motors to me to my spec, all of the rest of the parts are specced and put together by me, including the wheel build, controller, throttle, ebrakes, battery and charger. Mac do not make kits.

[BikeFanatic]

Thank you for such a great review of 3 different ebikes, It is a lot of work to review them.
I know I will be pointing a lot of newbies right here.

I wonder if you could comment on what it is like to pedal each one is there resistance/drag felt, or does it feel like a regular bike

[bobale]

I really like your last bike. It is incredibly beautiful, wiring is very neat, and it's so stealth with that bottle battery and Cute motor. But, you should consider covering it in leather. Battery case looks nice, but it doesn't match anything on the bike.

[greenspark]

The twist throttle has switches that do nothing, although it looks like they should be the on-off switches. Using plug-and-play, the battery remains on at all times, something that caused grief when I accidentally grabbed the handlebar to move the bike and twisted the throttle which promptly upended the bike and scratched the new rear fender. I had discovered that one set of wires had to be plugged into each other for it to run at all, thus I wired these into a boat toggle switch that allows me to shut off the battery when not in use. When Paul returns, I will ask for the wiring diagram. Performance is excellent for city streets, I can stay out of trouble. At stop lights I have to be careful to not pop a wheelie. It's no fun riding it on an outing with my wife, because I am always too far ahead. Which is why I then bought a third bike...

I test all the kits before they go out. The integrated 3 speed and cruise which are located on the throttle are amongst the checks that are made, so I can only assume that whilst modifying the connections to make a power switch, something was changed to prevent those functions from working. I would suggest that any equipment is used in as supplied state initially before making any changes, the connectors can only be fitted in 1 way. Cruise is enabled by pressing the momentary green switch on the throttle, the 3 speeds are enabled by the red 3 position switch, there is not an on/off switch on the throttle, nor is there any connections to the throttle that could be used for a power switch.

There should be a linked plug on the battery to controller adapter cable (if there is not then please let me know and I can advise how this can be added). If the link is removed, the controller is powered down. A low current switch could be fitted here as a remote power switch, any sort of low current switch would suffice. With the controller disabled there is zero current drain. If the kit is too fast a lower speed setting will do the trick (if the function is working) and if the current levels are higher than required, the controller can be re-programmed for lower current. 3 speed settings are also programmable down to as low as 30%. Speed 1 is set to 50% as standard, speed 2 75%, speed 3 100%.

I have now sorted out the electronics. It was just my bad luck that at the time Paul was on his holiday and not available for questions. It may very well be that the cruise button and the "I 0 II" switch worked all the time, but lacking any written instructions or wiring diagram, I did not figure out what they were to do. Obviously, both buttons only work when riding the bike, whereas I was looking for an on-off switch. In any case, the 3-speed now works, as does the cruise, and when the cable arrives, I will reprogram the "1" setting to be 30%. On country rides slowing down to smell the roses, the Mac is just too fast at 50%. As for the on-off switch, the wires are there coming out of the controller but I needed a better way to wire in a cut off. I had ordered a thumb throttle from Steven Deng, and it had an extra red button on it. I replaced the full grip with the thumb. I then wired the extra switch on the thumb to the on-off wires coming out of the controller box. This had the added advantage of having three "idiot lights" on the thumb that gave visual warning that I had forgotten to cut the power. I then cut off the grip part of the damaged throttle grip, and mounted that on the other handlebar to get the cruise and three-speed. I also spliced in the rear hand brake, so either brake now cuts power as well. Now everything works just fine, but I have also ordered from Paul a half-grip throttle and will probably replace the thumb with that one, provided I can still wire in an idiot light.

[greenspark]

Thank you for such a great review of 3 different ebikes, It is a lot of work to review them.
I know I will be pointing a lot of newbies right here.

I wonder if you could comment on what it is like to pedal each one is there resistance/drag felt, or does it feel like a regular bike

The Specialized Live 1 pedals like a normal bike, no drag.
The Gary Fisher pedals sort of normal, but there is a slight motor sound, power or not.
The Ulisse is a very big bike, and it feels it. But this is not motor drag, just size.

[greenspark]

I really like your last bike. It is incredibly beautiful, wiring is very neat, and it's so stealth with that bottle battery and Cute motor. But, you should consider covering it in leather. Battery case looks nice, but it doesn't match anything on the bike.

I tend to agree with you, and I have some beautiful Italian book leather than would look perfect. However, when I suggested I do that, my beloved, who is an artist was of the opinion that this would not work out as well as I would hope. So for now, I am holding off. But your second opinion may drive me to it. Thanks

[greenspark]

Just to clarify 1 point. Mac only supply the bare motors to me to my spec, all of the rest of the parts are specced and put together by me, including the wheel build, controller, throttle, ebrakes, battery and charger. Mac do not make kits.

Yup, that's why I bought my first kit from Paul (cell man)... and that is why I just ordered my second kit from him.

[cell_man]

Thanks

Well I think the kit should be a more controllable with the 3 speed and cruise working. So how fast is it on Speed 1? I wouldn't have though more than 25km/h?

I am now connecting both brakes to a single connector, so that concern is addressed. I'm still on the lookout for suitable external switches. Half grip throttles are now a no-cost option. I am not a fan of throttle with battery indications for a few reasons, they are specific to a battery voltage, they are pretty useless for LiFePO4 type packs, they put the pack voltage alongside signal lines, so easier to damage something and also the possibility to bleed voltage onto the throttle signal if the plugs get wet, I cannot find throttles with indication plus 3 speed and cruise. I have done some thinking about safety concerns and will try to offer some options that address this. I do already have some ratcheting ebrakes, so these will both keep a wheel locked and activate the motor kill, these can be a no cost option. Maybe I will have some simple displays that are both on/off switch and also give some basic info, I already offer Cycle Analyst.

Whilst I do think some documentation is probably in order, I would like to point out that all my kits have connectors that can only be made in 1 way, it's not like you need to start making up your own connectors or anything, so whilst pinouts for the connectors are nice to know, they are hardly essential. There is a throttle with a 3 speed switch and a momentary switch, plus ebrakes, that is all the controls there is. I always state the kit is with 3 speed and cruise.

Hope I didn't offend, but you did state I sent non functional parts. It was unfortunate I had to attend to some personal matters back home when you had your misunderstanding with the kit. I had intended to keep on top of emails whilst away but was unable to get a regular internet connection where I was. A post on ES would have almost definitely given you the info you needed until I was able to get back to you.

I hope the MXUS geared is ok on those steep hills and I'm very interested to hear your feedback. It is difficult to interpret what exactly someone is looking for. I just know that I will always recommend a slower wound Mac for hills as most want something with the power to get them up hills at a reasonable pace and be reliable doing it. The small motors will give a reasonable assistance on hills, but they aren't made to pull any sort of weight up a steed gradient on motor only. Look on the bright side, you can always turn down a motor that is too strong, you can't do much with a motor that is too weak

[greenspark]

Cell Man asked: "So how fast is it on Speed 1? I wouldn't have though more than 25km/h?"

Probably 25kph is about right. I use it when I want help up the hills and then shut it off and pedal. I've been meaning to add a speedo to see what I actually am doing, but with 14 tooth, in Speed 1 I still can do pedal assist. In Speed 2 and 3, it goes too fast for the gearing.

On battery lights, I agree, battery indicators are inaccurate and therefore somewhat useless, but using it as an idiot light to show the battery is on is important. All that is needed is an on-off switch that activates a light when on. For safety a removable key is what the Ulisse offers.

In terms of documentation, I suggest you first offer the equivalent of a one-page owners manual that shows what each switch and connector does. The "I-0-II" switch intuitively means "low-off-high", not "low-medium-high" for example, so an owners manual would explain that when it is on "0" it is not power-off, but Speed 2. You can write such a manual in Word with a few digital snapshots, save it as a pdf and upload it to your site for easy download by customers.

The other thing I would suggest for your web site is a list of everything you have for sale, such as the Cycle Analyst. Because shipping is expensive, it is worthwhile for the buyer to lump everything together, and you may want to suggest that for parts which are cheap it makes sense to buy extras on the initial order. For example, from Steven Deng, I bought an extra controller and an extra thumb throttle switch that cost very little, and proved very useful when his first kit failed (although since installing the replacement controller and finding it fixed nothing, I have not heard from him again). If you list all the stuff you carry, some folks will order more, especially of the smaller, lighter, cheaper accessories.

I am hopeful the MXUS will do the job, but if not, I'll keep shopping. You may want to chat with MAC about making a smaller-diameter, silver-finish, slower-wound, front wheel motor that is a step down from their 350W (300W maximum in NZ) and is all about hauling a 110kg payload (bike and rider) up a 20 degree hill (slowly, but with enough grunt to make it with moderate pedalling assist). On that bike, I really am looking for a pedal bike with a motor that flattens the hills rather than a motor scooter in bicycle clothing. I believe the largest potential market out there is the hill-flattener market, and the front motor does it without messing with the gears... simple and if the diameter is small, the hub is machined silver and the battery looks like part of the design, it will be a winner. Having said that, I think the Vivax Assist http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist.html sounds like the best solution, except for their €2,199 stunning price. It would be nice if they shifted manufacture to MAC and cut the price to about 10%.

Finally, Paul, I realise that you have said the bottle battery case does not fit your 123 batteries, but I do encourage you to see if something similar could not be purchased that does fit. It is so much cleaner than all the other battery boxes out there, it offers the on-off switch, is removable with a key, does not rattle, and it looks like it is part of the bike. The design can be painted, powder-coated or leather upholstered and yet BMS sells the empty (no battery) one for $25. Perhaps you can have a talk with the manufacturer to find out what they may charge you to make up a batch that would fit your batteries. On my bike, as the photo shows, you could make it another 150 mm longer without any problem.

[dnmun]

nope, let cell-man do what he does best. he really seems to care about his clients.

he was trying to help when he told you to get the battery voltage out of your throttle. when water gets into the throttle, it shorts the battery lead to the hall sensor and shorts out the hall sensor. dead throttle. in the rain, at night.

i think i told you the same on another thread or maybe it was someone else.

[cell_man]

Cell Man asked: "So how fast is it on Speed 1? I wouldn't have though more than 25km/h?"

Probably 25kph is about right. I use it when I want help up the hills and then shut it off and pedal. I've been meaning to add a speedo to see what I actually am doing, but with 14 tooth, in Speed 1 I still can do pedal assist. In Speed 2 and 3, it goes too fast for the gearing.

On battery lights, I agree, battery indicators are inaccurate and therefore somewhat useless, but using it as an idiot light to show the battery is on is important. All that is needed is an on-off switch that activates a light when on. For safety a removable key is what the Ulisse offers.

In terms of documentation, I suggest you first offer the equivalent of a one-page owners manual that shows what each switch and connector does. The "I-0-II" switch intuitively means "low-off-high", not "low-medium-high" for example, so an owners manual would explain that when it is on "0" it is not power-off, but Speed 2. You can write such a manual in Word with a few digital snapshots, save it as a pdf and upload it to your site for easy download by customers.

The other thing I would suggest for your web site is a list of everything you have for sale, such as the Cycle Analyst. Because shipping is expensive, it is worthwhile for the buyer to lump everything together, and you may want to suggest that for parts which are cheap it makes sense to buy extras on the initial order. For example, from Steven Deng, I bought an extra controller and an extra thumb throttle switch that cost very little, and proved very useful when his first kit failed (although since installing the replacement controller and finding it fixed nothing, I have not heard from him again). If you list all the stuff you carry, some folks will order more, especially of the smaller, lighter, cheaper accessories.

I am hopeful the MXUS will do the job, but if not, I'll keep shopping. You may want to chat with MAC about making a smaller-diameter, silver-finish, slower-wound, front wheel motor that is a step down from their 350W (300W maximum in NZ) and is all about hauling a 110kg payload (bike and rider) up a 20 degree hill (slowly, but with enough grunt to make it with moderate pedalling assist). On that bike, I really am looking for a pedal bike with a motor that flattens the hills rather than a motor scooter in bicycle clothing. I believe the largest potential market out there is the hill-flattener market, and the front motor does it without messing with the gears... simple and if the diameter is small, the hub is machined silver and the battery looks like part of the design, it will be a winner. Having said that, I think the Vivax Assist http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist.html sounds like the best solution, except for their €2,199 stunning price. It would be nice if they shifted manufacture to MAC and cut the price to about 10%.

Finally, Paul, I realise that you have said the bottle battery case does not fit your 123 batteries, but I do encourage you to see if something similar could not be purchased that does fit. It is so much cleaner than all the other battery boxes out there, it offers the on-off switch, is removable with a key, does not rattle, and it looks like it is part of the bike. The design can be painted, powder-coated or leather upholstered and yet BMS sells the empty (no battery) one for $25. Perhaps you can have a talk with the manufacturer to find out what they may charge you to make up a batch that would fit your batteries. On my bike, as the photo shows, you could make it another 150 mm longer without any problem.

They are all quite reasonable points and a few of your points are things I am already doing, intend to do or is on my To Do list, watch this space I would say the front 350W Mac would maybe fit the bill quite nicely, still might be a bit too strong though. At the end of the day, your kit uses a programmable controller, it can programmed with lower current if you wish, all the way down to 7A battery current if you wish. There are limits to what these little mini geared motors can deliver, but they can be fine as long as you keep within their limits. I don't think a small geared hub motor is in Mac's plan, not when the going rate for these motors is so ridiculously low and tooling costs for a new motor is so high. Mac are a small operation, the economies of scale are just not there, they don't run a sweat shop out in the sticks, it's just not viable for them to produce motors that can retail as complete kits for a little over 100USD.

The way I see it, it costs the same to ship 10kg of crap as it does to send 10kg of quality parts. I hate comebacks, I'm just not interested in selling the very cheapest products. I'd rather sell quality at reasonable prices that exceed expectations. It's difficult enough at my present sales level to develop products and keep on top of the sales. I'm not in a big rush to maximise my sales ASAP. I'll grow things at a pace I'm comfortable with, it'll come when it comes. Money is cool, I wouldn't say no to a bit more, but good reliable products are top priority in my opinion.

[greenspark]

Update: April 2012

Paul (cell man) sent me a new battery 36v and Infineon controller for his smaller 350W front motor kit (not the MAC). Even though on paper it is similar to the Cute 100 kit and BMSbattery's bottle battery, the performance is better. It takes me up my 20 degree hill with good pedal assist. it's not powerful enough to climb the hill on its own, but it does keep my leg muscles from screaming and the pedals from striking the frame... truly, the amount of muscle I have to use to climb the hill twists the Globe Live1 bike frame enough that the pedal strikes it.

Paul's kit has improved. He now wires both front and rear brake levers into the safety cut off switch, and he sold me a separate on-off switch that he hand marked with the place to plug it in. Whereas Steven Deng's kit required soldering everything (which first meant labeling everything - took an hour - to make sure I did not screw up and fry something by soldering it at the wrong place), Pauls was plug and play.

This time I went with the half twist throttle (which is less likely to be accidentally turned by someone moving the bike out of the way while the power is left on) and it has the 3-speed setting and cruise control. I find I use the cruise because the spring tension on the twist gets tiring. This may mean however that I use the juice more than I did with the thumb throttle.

I ordered a smaller batter (less Ah) because of weight and size, and I reckon on the island I don't need the extra distance. However, I may decide to carry the old bottle battery as a spare tank. We'll see how it goes. At present the front motor and the 3kg+ battery in the front basket makes it heavy. It is not noticeable when riding, but at rest, it's heavy. I installed a kick stand on the front axle, and this has ended the instability when I park the bike. I may however fabricate my own bottle case (using round aluminium pipe) and install Paul's battery where the water bottle goes.

The wheel that came with the kit was true and the 700c tyre fit on it tight whereas Steven Deng's was smaller diameter and it popped two inner tubes and one $40 tyre before I worked out how to get it to hold on. Much happier with Paul's rim.

Like Deng's motor, Paul's motor does make some noise going up our steep hill, and I am beginning to wonder if this is not the Globe Live1's aluminium frame amplifying the sound. It is not so bad on normal inclines, but not as quiet as the MAC on my Gary Fisher. We will see what happens when I move it to the Bella Ciao that I am buying in Berlin later this month. That has a Columbus Thron steel frame.

In a perfect world, this motor would have a wee bit more torque, the battery would fit in a round bottle design and I would like to have an idiot light to remind me that I left the battery switched on, but overall it's not bad. For the person wanting an assist (as opposed to making your bicycle into an electric moped), Paul's 350w front motor kit is a good, low-cost, easy to install solution. Make sure to ask to upgrade to the Infineon controller, ask for the on-off power switch and the longer brake handles. If you are willing to wait, he offers sea-freight shipping at a significantly lower price. I think it took about a month to arrive. One of the annoying things about Steven Deng and BMS battery is that they require one use the fast post (I wonder if that is not where they make their profit) but then take two weeks before they get the order in the post. Paul gets stuff out fast, and if there is a delay (in my case I ordered a battery in a size he did not have on the shelf), he keeps you informed before you send him the money.

Bottom line: Buy cellman, it's worth the extra price. Better product, better customer relations.

[motomech]

Since I read the original posting with interest, now that it's been up-dated I thought I would read the entire thread again. And the thing that jumped out at me is how small Q100 motor looks. I'm not sure what a "Q100F" is[google resulted in 0 hits], but it appeares to be smaller than the current crop of Q100's offered by BMS Battery. Could have Elifebike sent you a Q85 instead? Perhaps the larger tire/wheel just makes it look smaller. By way of referance, the Q100 motor housing is almost the same size as Cell_man's 350 Watt mini[MXUS], although BMS Battery claims it weighs less. I guess it really doesn't matter now.

Update: April 2012

Paul (cell man) sent me a new battery 36v and Infineon controller for his smaller 350W front motor kit (not the MAC). Even though on paper it is similar to the Cute 100 kit and BMSbattery's bottle battery, the performance is better. It takes me up my 20 degree hill with good pedal assist. it's not powerful enough to climb the hill on its own, but it does keep my leg muscles from screaming and the pedals from striking the frame... truly, the amount of muscle I have to use to climb the hill twists the Globe Live1 bike frame enough that the pedal strikes it.

[/quote
]Paul's kit has improved. He now wires both front and rear brake levers into the safety cut off switch, and he sold me a separate on-off switch that he hand marked with the place to plug it in. Whereas Steven Deng's kit required soldering everything (which first meant labeling everything - took an hour - to make sure I did not screw up and fry something by soldering it at the wrong place), Pauls was plug and play.

This time I went with the half twist throttle (which is less likely to be accidentally turned by someone moving the bike out of the way while the power is left on) and it has the 3-speed setting and cruise control. I find I use the cruise because the spring tension on the twist gets tiring. This may mean however that I use the juice more than I did with the thumb throttle.

I ordered a smaller batter (less Ah) because of weight and size, and I reckon on the island I don't need the extra distance. However, I may decide to carry the old bottle battery as a spare tank. We'll see how it goes. At present the front motor and the 3kg+ battery in the front basket makes it heavy. It is not noticeable when riding, but at rest, it's heavy. I installed a kick stand on the front axle, and this has ended the instability when I park the bike. I may however fabricate my own bottle case (using round aluminium pipe) and install Paul's battery where the water bottle goes.

The wheel that came with the kit was true and the 700c tyre fit on it tight whereas Steven Deng's was smaller diameter and it popped two inner tubes and one $40 tyre before I worked out how to get it to hold on. Much happier with Paul's rim.

Like Deng's motor, Paul's motor does make some noise going up our steep hill, and I am beginning to wonder if this is not the Globe Live1's aluminium frame amplifying the sound. It is not so bad on normal inclines, but not as quiet as the MAC on my Gary Fisher. We will see what happens when I move it to the Bella Ciao that I am buying in Berlin later this month. That has a Columbus Thron steel frame.

In a perfect world, this motor would have a wee bit more torque, the battery would fit in a round bottle design and I would like to have an idiot light to remind me that I left the battery switched on, but overall it's not bad. For the person wanting an assist (as opposed to making your bicycle into an electric moped), Paul's 350w front motor kit is a good, low-cost, easy to install solution. Make sure to ask to upgrade to the Infineon controller, ask for the on-off power switch and the longer brake handles. If you are willing to wait, he offers sea-freight shipping at a significantly lower price. I think it took about a month to arrive. One of the annoying things about Steven Deng and BMS battery is that they require one use the fast post (I wonder if that is not where they make their profit) but then take two weeks before they get the order in the post. Paul gets stuff out fast, and if there is a delay (in my case I ordered a battery in a size he did not have on the shelf), he keeps you informed before you send him the money.

Bottom line: Buy cellman, it's worth the extra price. Better product, better customer relations.

Would the battery from Cell_man be 39V's of Stout A123 cells? That alone would account for a significant performance increase over 36 of weaker bottle battery Volts. And the controller, any idea of max amps on that? With that battery, you might well be able to go up to 23A safely for a torque boost below no-load motor RPM.

Neptronix has used both the MXUS and the MAC and felt the MXUS was quieter, so frame/rack has some sort of resonance going on. My MXUS only emits a mild metalic growl at start and when climbing which serves to prod me to pedal harder. Above 10 mph, the semi-knobby drowns it out.

And just for the record-while I'm sure the Infineron is a nice upgrade, for those would need less features, the 17A Shenzhen[at least that is what my HTB kit came with]starts buttery smooth and is so tiny as to fit most anywhere[mine's under the seat].