Nissan Leaf Battery Life

[o00scorpion00o]

How long do people think the Nissan Leaf battery would last ?

afaik it's nmc ? so that means around 1000 cycles, maybe 1500 because rumours say that Nissan use about 21 kw/hrs out of the 24 maybe to increase life, but that's still only rumour!

Regular reports on the internet that the range is only around 60 ish miles at 70 mph, even in a moderate climate like here, it's the same.

So say it has a range of 60 miles on a charge at 70 mph that would mean 90,000 miles at 1500 cycles and only 60,000 miles at 1000 cycles.

If you fast charge then you kill the battery even faster, and according to Nissan could be as much as 10%, but they didn't say how often the fast charging reduces life, is it once, twice a week ?

Nissan say you can replace "modulus" but they will all have the same life, meaning that you could be frequently replacing modules at a very high price!

[Kin]

NMC has more than 1000-1500 cycle life, I believe. LiPO4 is more like 1000-1500.

I think there's been a decent amount of talk about NMC and the leaf, but it's mostly been in the battery technology section. Perhaps I am wrong, I get things all jumbled when I go through all of them.

[NickF23]

Its very hard to work out cycle life for any of the batteries used in EV's unless you at least see the spec sheet and all the discharge and charge data and temperatures etc

Its innaccurate to estimate based on the chemistry because it may very a lot between batteries for example in NMC how much coblat nickle and maganese? What about the electrolite, what is the separator? How are the cells constructed?

EV batteries made my by top manufacteres should be much better than most of what we can get our hands on for cycle life and calendar life . Only with time and real world testing will we actually know.

For anyone actually buying an EV the warranty on batteries is an important number. I imagine the manufacturer will be conservative otherwise it will cost them money.

If I remember right,the Prius Nimh batteries were warranted for 8 years . I don't think there were many replacements despite a lot of people in the sillier parts of the MSM scaremongering about this at the time.

[o00scorpion00o]

I still find it hard to find out the cycle life of nmc, not much info that I can find on e.s ? or the net ?

I know Nissan have a warranty on the battery, but that doesn't include "normal" degradation due to ware and tear. They didn't say what "normal" was. Is it miles ? years or both ?

If their new generation of batteries can be installed in the Gen I leaf that would be really good for 2nd hand buyers and giving peace of mind to the new owner. One can only guess as to what the cost might be.

[scotticeberg]

NMC supposedly lasts 3000 cycles at 80% DOD. I've even seen 5000 cycles claimed. Time will tell.

Of course I'm talking along the lines of LG Chem, and not stuff like BMS Battery.

[o00scorpion00o]

NMC supposedly lasts 3000 cycles at 80% DOD. I've even seen 5000 cycles claimed. Time will tell.

Of course I'm talking along the lines of LG Chem, and not stuff like BMS Battery.

Wow that would be cool, so if the leaf does 60-70 miles at 65 mph that would mean 180,000-210,000 miles, not to mention the amount of partial cycles.

Of course fast charging would reduce that too, then environmental factors. It will be interesting to find out. It shouldn't be too long before we hear about the Nissan leaf with 100,000 miles.

I would certainly consider a 2nd hand one provided the battery has decent life left.

[Hillhater]

I would certainly consider a 2nd hand one provided the battery has decent life left.

do the on board systems keep a log of recharges?, part recharges? , total kWhrs recharged ? etc
how "hack - proof" is any of this data ?
Or how will a buyer know the remaining "life" left in the pack.?
Is there any accurate way of testing the true condition of one of these high $$$ packs ??

[o00scorpion00o]

I would certainly consider a 2nd hand one provided the battery has decent life left.

do the on board systems keep a log of recharges?, part recharges? , total kWhrs recharged ? etc
how "hack - proof" is any of this data ?
Or how will a buyer know the remaining "life" left in the pack.?
Is there any accurate way of testing the true condition of one of these high $$$ packs ??

I think Nissan have made sure the leaf battery will never be fully discharged and there are plenty of rumours from leaf owners on the net that the net that it uses only 20 of the 24 kw/ hr battery.

No one will ever drive it until fully discharged anyway.

If we hear that the average leaf battery lasts 150,000 + miles then would it be wrong to think that that's the life of the battery ?

The price should have dropped by then + Nissan might offer money for the old battery ?

[Hillhater]

If we hear that the average leaf battery lasts 150,000 + miles then would it be wrong to think that that's the life of the battery ??

That may be OK providing nobody figures out how to "Clock" the mileometer !
..which is why i asked about on board data storage.

[DanCard]

afaik it's nmc ?

No, its lithium manganese. NMC is next generation battery which in 2009 Nissan said would be available in 2015.
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOL ... on_ev.html
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/ ... -car-5991/
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/11 ... 91129.html

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi DanCard,

Welcome to the Sphere!

Thanks for those links, very interesting!

[Hillhater]

.......So say it has a range of 60 miles on a charge at 70 mph that would mean 90,000 miles at 1500 cycles and only 60,000 miles at 1000 cycles....!

but who gets to drive at 70 mph consistently or average. The only way you could do that is on a country /interstate freeway...
..... and that is not the use cars like the leaf were designed for.
They are intended for urban commuting, which is low average speed , multi stop start situation.
Example :
my ebike battery has a capacity of 37v x 15 Ahr = 555Whrs theoretically, and i know it uses 1180 W at 30mph ( Wattmeter )
so by your calculations method i would have a range of < 15 miles and need to recharge every 30 mins or less .
Well the reality is i rarely get to ride at 30 mph around town (?) often riding for over 4 hours and traveling over 30 miles distance, without ever draining the batteries ( 400 Whrs used).
OK, on a Ebike there is the possibility of pedaling, but i dont do that much, the real difference is speed and power demand for that speed.

I suspect a typical Leaf is going to be doing a lot of 20 -30 mile trips with few full discharges. Majority of recharges will be "top ups" ... does anyone know how that affects battery life ? ..

[o00scorpion00o]

.......So say it has a range of 60 miles on a charge at 70 mph that would mean 90,000 miles at 1500 cycles and only 60,000 miles at 1000 cycles....!

but who gets to drive at 70 mph consistently or average. The only way you could do that is on a country /interstate freeway...
..... and that is not the use cars like the leaf were designed for.
They are intended for urban commuting, which is low average speed , multi stop start situation.
Example :
my ebike battery has a capacity of 37v x 15 Ahr = 555Whrs theoretically, and i know it uses 1180 W at 30mph ( Wattmeter )
so by your calculations method i would have a range of < 15 miles and need to recharge every 30 mins or less .
Well the reality is i rarely get to ride at 30 mph around town (?) often riding for over 4 hours and traveling over 30 miles distance, without ever draining the batteries ( 400 Whrs used).
OK, on a Ebike there is the possibility of pedaling, but i dont do that much, the real difference is speed and power demand for that speed.

I suspect a typical Leaf is going to be doing a lot of 20 -30 mile trips with few full discharges. Majority of recharges will be "top ups" ... does anyone know how that affects battery life ? ..

Yes I'm sure Leaf drivers will be doing that mileage and Nissan seem to think the range is enough by knowing from the communications system that the average distance is under 30 miles a day, well that's because the Leaf driver is restricted in the mileage they can do, not because it's enough.

The Leaf would do 95% of our driving needs, but at the weekend we drove about 240 miles yesterday and about 96 of that was motorway and about 85 miles was 120 kms or 75 mph all of 85 miles, the rest between 60-100 kms. So it would have been useless.

However, the Renault Zoe has it's 3 phase charger built in and needs only a cheap 3 phase supply. The Irish electric company (E.S.B) have several 20kw charging points and many more to follow, and soon there is nowhere on the Island I wouldn't be able to drive, afaik the on street chargers are being upgraded to support the full 42kw capable Zoe, very impressive.

So the Zoe would suit my needs much better, the only problem is Ireland has no service stations on the motorways at all and means a detour, inconvenient especially when charging would take 20 ish mins!

[Hillhater]

Seems like you are the ideal candidate for a range extender trailer ..extra battery or genset on wheels ...for the weekends !

[liveforphysics]

You can not judge a batteries cycle life from its chemistry.

Chemistry is maybe 20% of it.

I bet it lasts about as long as Nissan's public estimates for pack life.

[o00scorpion00o]

But the NMC is supposed to last longer than their current battery ?