Kinni's E-bike questions and stuffs

[Kinni420]

here's the link to the previous post. read on if you like.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36274

Ok so I've got the battery thing down. I've decided on Lipo, 48v 10ah set up. 14s2p i think. not sure on whats the best out there lately for that kind of set up. I, of course, would like some more Ah but not sure if i can get it without tons of volume. thoughts?

I.m looking hard at this motor:

http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i22.html

funny thoughts: Ive been spending lots of time lately converting watts/volts/amps on random electrical equpiment just cuz I understand it now. Thanks Professors!

[rojitor]

For 48v 10ah you need 4 bricks 6s 5000 mah 12s2p,there's the 8000 mah option available as well so you could get 16ah.

[Kinni420]

can u link those two? I suck at searching that site.

[Drunkskunk]

12s lipo is only 44.4 volts. Its fine but not the same as a full 48 volts. It will be less complicated to charge 12s though.

14s is a 51.8 volt battery. Overkill but if you're wanting a 48 volt system instead of a 36 volt, you'll likely be happier with 52 volts instead of 44.

13s is 48.1 volts. But why have 13s when 14s is available?

15S is the ragged edge of what a 48 volt system can handle, and you run a real risk of burning stuff up, but many do it and have had the equipment survive. Not a good idea if you need reliability or on a budget.


Charging may be the deciding factor. cells come in packs up to 6s, with a few 10s options. but you won't find many 7s charging options. So you have to make a battery out of packs you can charge individualy. 12s is easy, its 2 6s packs in series. and those 2 packs can use the same charger and same settings. 14s isn't. you need 2 5s packs, and 1 4s pack in series, and you either need diffrent chargers, or change the programing between charging the 5s and 4s
13s would also be tricky, as you would either need 2 packs of 5s and 1 of 3 s, or 1 pack of 5s and 2 packs of 4s, meaning diffrent chargers or diffrent charging setups for each pack.

Mostly, its just the anoyance of changing charger settings, but there is a real danger of fire for a beginner if the wrong pack is used with the wrong setting on a charger. Lipo don't give much warning before they burn your house down, so the less complicated your charging setup is, the better.

[shock]

12cell lipo is the best way to go (IMO)

Easiest to configure and charge since most chargers do 6 cell, and 12 cell lipo is 50.4 volts hot off the charger. 44.4 would be a safe LVC for a 12 cell lipo setup.

I swear by Blue Lipo brand from hobbypartz.com, purchased 12 cell, 12 amp hours for $130.

[Kinni420]

so what should I get for batteries at the range Im looking for. Minimum of 10.5 miles with 3-4% grade on the return ride. Love to stick with 12s (light and small) and I dont mind pedaling much to help the batteries out (besides makes me look like I'm hauling ass without trying!). Shock's battery suggestion wasnt available on the site mentioned (2s @ 6000mAh) rest of the kit/motor would be mentioned above.

Im gonna ammend this post. since Im coming to really understand what id like.

1) do throttles for e-bikes give 100% all the time at any throttle position (on/off) or is it more like a regular gas vehicle throttle?
2) if I get the mac kit above, do i need to get anything other than the batteries and what I encase them in? Any upgrade suggestions?
3) Ive always been a torque guy. I love diesel trucks, 4 stroke dirt bikes and blowing off the line faster than anything out there. Top speed is a consideration but not as much as coming out of that 90 degree turn and punching it into a controlled wheelie, climbing big hills when others are pushing. This is why I chose the torque kit motor. Besides, drivers are nuts and its nice to have a big power boost when you need it crossing an intersection. How much of a difference are we looking at?

[shock]

1- It's linear, more throttle means more current means more speed.
2- The Mac kit should have everything you need sans batteries.
3- Not exactly sure what your asking here.

I got the blue lipo's on black friday for one hell of a deal. I got 22.2v 20c 2650mah, 10 of them.

With only 10 miles, at 48v, and a efficient geared hub, with some pedaling, you should be able to do that easy with 5 amp hours.

[dogman]

Well, you won't be getting wheelies out of a Mac at 12s.

Nor will you get more torque. ( It's a marketing tool that is a bit misleading, but easier for a noob customer to get) Nevertheless, the slower mac will do better from a stop sign. It will also get a heavy weight rolling better. It's easy for it to be percieved as more torque, but in reality it's just that the torque develops differently. The slow motors climb hills with less excess motor heating. But the price paid for it is slower top speeds.

Once rolling pretty good, ebikes perform a bit like a car already in its top rpm. Without a shift, more gas doesn't do so much. You won't be jerking your head back if you are already rolling 15 mph.

The faster mac will easily climb the hills you mention, so you might prefer it for the higher top end speed. But the fast mac is a bit sluggish for the first 20 feet off a stop sign. The slower mac will be a better motor if you decide to go climb some real mountians on the weekend.

I recomend trying out 12s lipo, for it's greater ease of charging and such. 4 6s packs should just do you.

One vital acessory for running lipo without a bms is some kind of "fuel guage" . At the very minimum a readout of pack voltage, better, a wattmeter, best of all the Cycleanalyst wattmeter. The stand alone one is still good if your controller is not CA enabled.

[dogman]

Just to throw a monkey wrench at you one more time....

Go to the for sale section, and look for Methods "wife kit" sale. It's a slow version of the 9 continent motor, and ideal for future upgrade to a much more powerfull ebike. The Mac, while a great motor, is not so good for pushing 3000w into for a dirtbike.

The kit is very good, complete with a CA at a very very very good price. Get the rear motor of course. At 12s lipo, you'd see about 18-19 mph top speed on the flat, and have ability to climb hills to 15% grades with pedaling, 10% is a piece of cake no pedal.

But later on, Mhahhahhahaha , Put a lyens 12 fet 40 amp controller on it, and go to 18s lipo. Now you have a very nice setup for trail riding. and still can ride street fine. The only compromise would be an enduro type tire tread.

Seriously, it's a good choice. 3 of 6 ebikes I own are running the slow winding 9c motor for good reasons.

You want torque, feed a slow wind 9c motor 2000w. It'll plow deep sand, through snow, up hills, beautifully.

[Kinni420]

thanks dogman for your many replys but in your 100's of replys a day your forget what Im looking for. 99% road, 700c rims. not dirt so much. not a superbike but fun fun fun. Im thinking of buying a MTB just for the function of getting the 26" rims, and off road capability. (cant possibly fit a 26 on this bike...refer to the original post link at the top of the topic) so the "wife kit" with only 26" rims isnt an option unless I buy a bike to fit it.

Your torque expination was great, but Im moving soon back to Marin County, California where the hills are steep unlike here in colorado where the hills are constant. Im still a meek 165 lbs so the weight isnt much of a factor.

lets make this easy. Im still deciding on batteries atm. Lets forget motors for now. How about this set up for batteries at 12s2p with the motor in question. 44v 10aH.

4 of these: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _30C_.html

possibly upgrading for aH to 20 (4 more)

Id like the best but very good will do.

[rojitor]

How about this set up for batteries at 12s2p with the motor in question. 44v 10aH. 4 of these: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... _30C_.html

Yeah 4 of these will do. I got the 25c packs ( slightly cheaper).

[Kinni420]

awesome advice, short and sweet...

next question. why should i worry about C rates on batteries? will a higher C rate affect preformance in any way?

[dogman]

Not so much forgetting what you wanted, you start talking about liking to wheelie, etc. I just see you wanting to dirt ride in the future. I did forget about your 700c wheel though.

Nothing wrong with your choice, for a 700c commuter. Later, you can build a more powerful dirt bike, or street fun hot rod.

Those batts should be fine. 12s is a really simple configuration that makes it less likely to screw up while learing to lipo.

The c rate matters most for people that are hot rodding a bike. On my dirt bike, 72v 10 ah provides me plenty of amps when using at least 20c batteries. With a lower c rate, feeding a 40 amp controller could take 2-4 times the size of battery.

In general, the higher the c rate the better the quality of the battery. This means potentialy longer lifespan, and definitely less voltage sag under load.

If you run a 20 amp controller, a 15 ah battery with a 1-2c discharge rate is fine. But if you want to run 10 ah or less, then a higher c rate is a huge advantage. Mandatory if you run 10 ah with a 40 amp controller.

[Kinni420]

ok you guys are gonna love this, this is the new e-bike instead of the commuter I had planned.

I traded this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/403/img20120216132812.jpg/

for this:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/138/004spv.jpg/

for a total of ten US dollars

couldnt get the image to work for some reason.

[Kinni420]

ok so Ive pretty much settled on the battery set up i want. Time to talk motors.

considering the new bike I got with 26" rims instead of the 700c. AND considering this new bike lets me sell my old one for 350, I have a lot more cash to deal with, thinking 18s. So now I have questions. Dog redirected me to methods wife kit. sounds hawt. AND nice price. I dont understand Fet or controllers much at all. at this point im settled on the batteries so i need input on the rest. time to change the tone of this post.

Id appreciate some understanding into controllers/motors and the terminology associated with them. Method was selling three dif kits. considering what I want NOW, something fast and (around 1k bucks without going too nuts) what should I be looking for in methods kits. btw I understand electricity aka amps watts volts etc at this point. winding is my main qustion atm...what is the diff in windings like dog posted earlier compared to the 9c? be gentle, its my first time.

edit, duh, front and rear kits. rear is my choice so no problem there.

for those of you born in my era. "Its great to learn and knowledge is power!" - Schoolhouse Rock.

[dogman]

Schoolhouse rock is cool.

I still tend to say get the wife kit, the rear 2810 9c. But at 18s the top speed will be less than 30 mph. I think you'd have to get a different controller than his kit though, I think it's only a 48v one. The main advantage will be when you go off road riding, or climb steep hills. A slower top speed means a better efficiency too, since the wattage a motor can draw is less at slower speeds.
Lyens 12 fet 40 amp 72v controller is popular. ( look for Lyens in the for sale new) That's theoretically 3000w. Call it 4 hp.

But Methys has some very nice fast motors too. I bet you'd love 40 mph. Hopefully the cops won't notice you, but they might. Bear in mind that a fast ebike is an unlicenced, illegal, homemade motorcylce. 30 mph usually doesn't attract too much notice, but 40 mph will. Another reason I like the slower windings. Same HP, but less noticeable top speed.

Heres where you see vids of my even slower 2812 motor on 3000w. http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018? ... foFxm1GGwk

Yeah, it's not a fast ebike, but she rocks in the dirt.

[Kinni420]

who wouldnt love 40 mph on a bike but at this time of year Im a little scared of 10. slower, more eficient is great atm. I dont mind a slower motor. Ive gotten a speeding ticket on a bike..I beat it lol. but 40mph? naw. 30 would be fantastic.

[Kinni420]

So i took a good look at methods post and his site.

great price, great kit, just have a few questions for him and will PM him here after this.

gonna go with the 18s2p setup for this kit (2810R 72v with the 40A upgrade you suggested dog.) Any further condiserations? (torque arms etc?)
Got the marin bike for $16.11. Its too small for me(17 1/2"), needs a different gooseneck so I dont feel like im gonna fall over the front will post a decent pic in a bit here.

BTW since it hasnt been mentioned yet. For the above battery set up can you reccomend a charger and anything else I might need to keep these batteries running at best maintenance? (outside of anything in the kit?)
also, any idea of shipping times for batteries?

[jkbrigman]

So i took a good look at methods post and his site.

great price, great kit, just have a few questions for him and will PM him here after this.

gonna go with the 18s2p setup for this kit (2810R 72v with the 40A upgrade you suggested dog.) Any further condiserations? (torque arms etc?)
Got the marin bike for $16.11. Its too small for me(17 1/2"), needs a different gooseneck so I dont feel like im gonna fall over the front will post a decent pic in a bit here.

BTW since it hasnt been mentioned yet. For the above battery set up can you reccomend a charger and anything else I might need to keep these batteries running at best maintenance? (outside of anything in the kit?)
also, any idea of shipping times for batteries?

Hi Kinni -
I bought essentially the "wife kit" from Methods (Patrick) and I'm working on getting it installed on a recumbent. Some comments I'll make:
- I got the 25A controller. It can handle up to 88V. I plan to use it with 18S 2-or-3P also.
- I got the mod to handle 40A. I don't expect to need that much current but we'll see.
- I bought the "beefy torque arm"
- I haven't built my battery yet, I'm experimenting and learning using a brick or two of Turnigy LiPo. I bought a Hobby King "iCharger 106b+" balance charger. It will charge up-to a 6S brick. You can parallel all your bricks on that one charger and it will run at up to 250W.
- When I've got a battery I'm happy with, I may buy a small bulk charger and keep it at work for quick, simple pack charges to finish out the daily commute
- It took me a little over 2 weeks to get the LiPo bricks I'm playing with from Hobby King's "International Warehouse".

JKB

[Kinni420]

well since the post seems to have taken a big crap over the weekend Ill repost and try to get a couple more questions answered. So far Ive settled on:

6 packs 6s1p lipo for 72v 10aH 25C
methods wife kit:
2810R 9C laced into 26” rim (6x10 windings)
36V – 72V 25A controller with IRFB4110’s and 100V caps (upgraded to the 40A controller)
Large screen direct plug-in CA
Split-twist throttle (actually going with the full throttle)
adding the "Beefy torque arm"

just need to add a charger and anything else you all might recommend. Just about ready to drop the cash for this bad baby. Thanks for Idea #1 Jkb
Your input is greatly appreciated.

[shock]

If your going to go over 12cells I would recommend a direct drive hub, as any geared hub over 48v is going to start cooking you breakfast. So good choice on the 10 turn DD hub.

I use 2x AC6 chargers with good results. Always reliable and always balanced.

[DAND214]

I have thesehttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=16207 and Zippys. I like the turnigy better.
Great price and they have better grade wire on them. Also they are staying well ballanced more than the Zippys.

I think you should go with the half twist, much easier to handle and they don't pull off if you grab them wrong.

Dan

[dogman]

Curious how you get 72v from 6s packs, You can run 18s, 15 ah from those packs though. about 64v nominal. 20s for 72v.

18s on the 6x10 should get you a solid 25 mph for sure. You'll have a very reliable setup there.

[Kinni420]

my math fails me. When i count V I use 4 * (# of packs). guess i really should use 3.6

[dogman]

Yeah I get it. It's kind of wierd eh, that nominal voltage is so close to empty. 3.9v per cell makes sense to me for nominal voltage. More the middle of the discharge curve.

Lots of us using lipo now, so it makes just talking in number of cells in series undersandable to most. So now a lot of us just say 20s, rather than 72v.