Kinni's E-bike questions and stuffs

[Kinni420]

basicly Ive been looking at 18p2s for cost.

6x ZIPPY Flightmax 5000mAh 6S1P 25C (64v 10 Ah @ 18s2p)= $285.72
4x Turnigy nano-tech 4500mah 10S 25~50C Lipo Pack (72v 9Ah @ 20s2p) = $399.96

is it really worth the extra $115 bucks with less Ah?

what if I went 24s2p with the same batteries? cost would be less than the 4 10s @ $381.04 (86v 10Ah) lol more power someone stop me before I hit 100v.

Tomorrow is my birthday!!!! send gifts NOW!

BTW is there an Ebike chat forum with voice? i.e ventrilo, mumble etc? I wait two days for a short answer but could learn a ton in 30 min on voice chat. Or if someone wouldn't mind spending a bit with me on a chat program before i spend a small fortune on something just to replace it?

[dogman]

I'd go with 18s of the 25c. You're not building a racing bike yet. 10 ah of 25c is quite a few amps with not that much sag. Cut the c rate in half like normal, and you still have a usable 125 amps of power there.

Ought to do ya for the first build.

[Kinni420]

going with Shock's recomendation of the GT A-6-10 200W Balance charger & discharger. good price, fair reviews. $43 bux falls in my budget well.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... arger.html

[shock]

Actually I use the AC6

http://www.hobbypartz.com/thac6smbachw.html

and 2x of them. They are the same price ($44) but use 12vdc or 120vac input. I use em in the house to charge or in the field on my truck battery. Very good charger for the money. It only does half the rate (5a) of the chargers you mentioned though...

[Kinni420]

oops where did i get that from

[dogman]

Have a look at EP buddy for chargers. US based, so returning one is possible.

[Kinni420]

ya I like that. any comments on this one?

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=73 G.T. Power A606 Battery Charger

with

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... c1qfilo9r0 ParaBoard-XH T-plug

[dogman]

50 watts will take all day to charge a few packs. It's really too small and slow.

My personal rig uses two 150w ones like this one.

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=29
I believe my chargers are idendtical or close to it, but with HK branding. I run both on a 350w meanwell. For me, it's a good setup. The i-chargers might be better, but this has been working fine for me for more than a year.

You need the meanwell to have a decent wattage PS, so you may as well get at least some more wattage on the charger. Shocking what good charging costs, but it's mandatory to charge lipo safely.

[Kinni420]

so, youre charging 4 or 6 battery packs at once on two chargers? If not how do I balance all those cells perfectly? Im still a little fuzzy on how to charge everything properly.

good suggestion. thanks for noticing.

Just got an email back from patrick.

To be honest I dont like your charger choice one bit. There are two reasons:

1) You will have to charge your pack in steps - 3 steps - that sucks and leads to imbalance. Dont even think about taking your pack apart to charge in parallel and discharge in series. This always, always, ALWAYS leads to mistakes that cost you a lot of time and burnt fingers.

2) That charger is only 200W. 66V 10Ah = 660Wh so that means it will take a minimum of 4 hours to charge your pack. More likely much longer. 750W is a nice charge power.

I understand you are making due - but please try to get away from changing pack configuration to charge ASAP. At least 1 in 3 of my customers who try this end up making a big mistake. At least 2 in 3 make a small mistake. Take it from a guy who has burnt the skin off his fingers many times..... and I dont make mistakes.

[shock]

I charge 6 packs at once with 2 chargers. 3 parallel per charger. I don;t have my balance taps paralleled. I just rotate the balance taps every charge, so every third charge single packs are balanced. Has worked very well so far.

[jkbrigman]

so, youre charging 4 or 6 battery packs at once on two chargers? If not how do I balance all those cells perfectly? Im still a little fuzzy on how to charge everything properly.

Hey Kinni - check out my "Basic LiPo Charging" thread at:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36097

Beware: the priority of my thread is to explain balance charging and how I'm using my 250W iCharger. In doing so, I do have to reconfigure my pack to charge it in parallel and discharge it in series (and I show the harnesses I've made for each operation).

This means I'm violating the idea Patrick puts forth, but I agree with him - you don't want to reconfigure the battery between use and charging. But I don't yet know how much battery I need for my mission - when I do, then I'll build out the battery and not reconfigure it between charging and use.

Patrick is right about wanting as much charging power as possible, but don't be afraid to start out smaller. I'm very happy charging at 250W (I sized my system similar to what "dogman" uses). When I figure out the battery size I need, then I'll spring for a higher-power bulk charger. I'll probably go with 450-500 watts.

JKB

[jkbrigman]

And if you want to look at my machine in it's current state, check out my build thread at:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35076

Or just click on the link in my .sig...

JKB

[Kinni420]

im spent the day burning my brain trying to figure out how to go from series to parallel for charging. Im pretty smart but wtf? I could use a lot more wires and some switches, would rather not. currently working on a pattern for building a battery/controller box in the triangle out of plastic. Ill post some drawings later

BTW methods wife kit is on the way to my door.

[jkbrigman]

im spent the day burning my brain trying to figure out how to go from series to parallel for charging. Im pretty smart but wtf? I could use a lot more wires and some switches, would rather not. currently working on a pattern for building a battery/controller box in the triangle out of plastic. Ill post some drawings later

BTW methods wife kit is on the way to my door.

Good job on the Wife Kit!

It's not too difficult on the series vs. parallel thing. The way to think of it is "parallel first, series second". You want to work in "units of parallel blocks", then put those blocks in series. Photos in my Recumbent Commuter build thread.

Folks will advise you to go ahead and get a BMS-type product whether it's methods or ggoodrum. That can work out the question of serial vs. parallel. But you don't have to buy one right away. You can balance the cells with an RC balancing charger. Photos of that are in my "Basic LiPo Charging" thread.

I don't have a BMS yet because I don't know how big the battery needs to be. I'm working on that question tonight. When I size it properly then I'll buy a BMS or make one myself.

[Kinni420]

I understand the whole series vs parralel thingy, its just how do you get around switching from series to parallel? I mean with 2 chargers, Im looking at charging three batteries per, all in parallel; when Im running 2p during discharge. seems like I have to unplug everything from the discharge harness, then replug into the chargers harness? I read your lipo charging post cover to cover twice. and I dont recall you showing anything about building a balancing harness. (if its possible).

great stuff to see it step by step btw.

doesnt the Cycle Anylyst work somewhat like a BMS? And im smart enough to know to shut it down before minimum (65.7)

Voltage Cutout: A low voltage cutout is used to protect a battery pack from being discharged too deeply, which can cause cell reversals in NiMH/NiCad packs, permanent cell damage in Lithium packs, and sulfation in Lead Acid batteries. The programmable low voltage rollback allows you to set an appropriate low voltage point tailored to your pack.

[dogman]

Numerous ways to make the s-p switch.

In my case, I have a nice paralell - series harness I use on my 12s 10 ah pack. Icecube 57 sells them in the for sale section. This rig does not provide for balance charging. I balance charge about every 10 cycles or so, but typicaly it does not need it. Any pack that needs balancing every charge is weeded out asap. By needing it, I mean it's .1v off every time. .05 off I don't fret about.

So for the balancing charge, I may charge packs individualy, or paralell two packs at the main wires and at the balance wires to balance charge a set of two at a time. Having two chargers, I can get through the whole pile of packs twice as fast. Gives me a backup if one charger goes poof too. You can balance with a slower cheaper charger as well, so you could have a 350w meanwell, a 200w charger, and a couple more cheap 50w chargers all running at once on the meanwell. So you could top up the packs on the 200w charger, then balance them using the cheaper chargers. I tend to balance only the packs that actually need them, so I'll do a non balance charge, then check the packs. Only need to balance if it's out of balance right?

On my 72v10 ah pack I use a slightly different approach. Each of the 4 5s sections of the pack is a pair of packs that are paralelled at the main wires. Normal charging, I take two of these units and paralell them agian with a Y adapter I made. So for non balance charging, I have two chargers each running at the same time charging 4 paralelled packs at a time. Balancing is done two packs at a time, with y adapters for the balance wires.

So my equipment is this. One Icecube 57 harness for 6s-12s or 5s 10s. Many harnesses that paralell two packs at a time, three of them used to paralell 4 packs at a time, and two sets of Jst balance wire harnesses that paralell two packs at a time for balancing charges.

Bear in mind, there are about a hundred different ways to connect up to charge, all correct. The method I use makes sense to me, but others don't remove the battery from the bike each charge, and use very different methods.

[jkbrigman]

I understand the whole series vs parralel thingy, its just how do you get around switching from series to parallel? I mean with 2 chargers, Im looking at charging three batteries per, all in parallel; when Im running 2p during discharge. seems like I have to unplug everything from the discharge harness, then replug into the chargers harness? I read your lipo charging post cover to cover twice. and I dont recall you showing anything about building a balancing harness. (if its possible).

great stuff to see it step by step btw.

doesnt the Cycle Anylyst work somewhat like a BMS? And im smart enough to know to shut it down before minimum (65.7)

Kinni- hey, THANKS for the good feedback on the Basic LiPo thread. Three things:

1) You are right, I didn't show how to build a balancing harness. I wimped out and bought one.
2) I haven't gotten to the big question of series discharge vs. parallel charge but I am close and will post photos to the Basic LiPo Thread, possibly as soon as this weekend. Will that help?
3) When you bulk charge, all you have to do is unplug the controller from the battery and plug the anderson connector to your charger. It will bulk charge and taper off when HVC is met, but with no cell balancing.

You CAN balance charge and not have to reconfigure your pack to do so. I have one balance charger, which I will connect up to the three basic paralleled blocks of lipo and move it from one to the other to the other as charging completes. I'll show how I do this in the thread.

JKB

[Kinni420]

JKB...this is perfect...exactly what I wanted to hear. Id love to see pics of everything...I already built the charging harness today exactly as you laid it out. with every single part. I also got lucky today and found this lamp/ alligator clip wire holder for 3 bux in the thrift store. ill get a pic tomorrow. looks like a robot or something great for soldering.

I have a ton of this wire. http://www.jr.com/monster-cable/pe/MC_OMC500/ all 12 gauge. as long as Im not an idiot and cross colors (I would probably die of embarrasment anways) would it be good wire to use? seems like a stupid question to me lol.

no-one commented on the Cycle Anlyst question

[jkbrigman]

JKB...this is perfect...exactly what I wanted to hear. Id love to see pics of everything...I already built the charging harness today exactly as you laid it out. with every single part. I also got lucky today and found this lamp/ alligator clip wire holder for 3 bux in the thrift store. ill get a pic tomorrow. looks like a robot or something great for soldering.

I have a ton of this wire. http://www.jr.com/monster-cable/pe/MC_OMC500/ all 12 gauge. as long as Im not an idiot and cross colors (I would probably die of embarrasment anways) would it be good wire to use? seems like a stupid question to me lol.

ROKK and ROLL man! Looks like you're making progress! Congrats on finding the alligator clip wire holder - I've never used mine so much as when I'm making cables!

I think the Monster cable will work OK. And yeah, just don't cross it, but that should be easy, since you've got one copper and one silver colored.

I TRIED to use 10 gauge for a battery cable to the controller, and it didn't work so well. It wouldn't fit the anderson connector. I could jam it in my barrel connectors, but it seemed foolish to use wire and then have to trim it back at the anderson connector - inviting it to break and/or heat up at that point.

Then I looked at what's on the controller- 12 gauge - and that made up my mind. So I used 12 gauge coarse-threaded cable to make my battery harness for connecting up to the motor and it worked beautifully. Seated just fine in the anderson connectors. I've rammed 35A through it with no problems. Things to be aware of of you use the Monster cable.

1) Keep it as short as possible.
2) The jacket on speaker wire isn't "hi temp", so watch it to see if it's melting anywhere. You can aid that by adding shrink wrap - I did to the jumpers I made.
3) Be careful not to nick the cable when you strip it. I use one of those automatic squeeze strippers - you can get 'em at Radio Shack, they are awesome and work great.

JKB

[Kinni420]

Ive never liked automatic anything but have used those strippers and find them pretty good. I have a very nice pair of wire strippers I use to wire stereo systems, dont use the old "bite and pull" method.

btw I never noticed the polarity thing on those AC wires. Learn something new every day. Monster Cables are designed to handle up to 10000 watts I believe? although its very flexible so I really dont trust it. Think I'll research some better heat resistant 12g wires.

I braid all my wires. Since my background is really in 60-70's car wiring, boat wiring and rock climbing Im very used to creating harnesses and knots (but only 12v with boats sometimes going parallel on a '1-both-2-off' switch), i solder a lot, and get the DC thing. never had to deal much with 24v systems in vehicles except for snowcats, which i only drove, not worked on. still i want minimal resistace from a connection so if i could use gold wire, solder and connectors Id be happy but................

btw explain "wicking" more on the post...its fun to watch and makes a so-so connection into something to celebrate. I could hang my bike from that 3 to 1 connection.

need a triangle bag before i learn to sew and make my own and start my own business.

Goodbye Davy Jones, I loved ya.

[jkbrigman]

Ive never liked automatic anything but have used those strippers and find them pretty good. I have a very nice pair of wire strippers I use to wire stereo systems, dont use the old "bite and pull" method.

btw I never noticed the polarity thing on those AC wires. Learn something new every day. Monster Cables are designed to handle up to 10000 watts I believe? although its very flexible so I really dont trust it. Think I'll research some better heat resistant 12g wires.

I braid all my wires. Since my background is really in 60-70's car wiring, boat wiring and rock climbing Im very used to creating harnesses and knots (but only 12v with boats sometimes going parallel on a '1-both-2-off' switch), i solder a lot, and get the DC thing. never had to deal much with 24v systems in vehicles except for snowcats, which i only drove, not worked on. still i want minimal resistace from a connection so if i could use gold wire, solder and connectors Id be happy but................

btw explain "wicking" more on the post...its fun to watch and makes a so-so connection into something to celebrate. I could hang my bike from that 3 to 1 connection.

need a triangle bag before i learn to sew and make my own and start my own business.

Goodbye Davy Jones, I loved ya.

Kinni - you're "practically at home" here on E-S. Welcome!

Ya know, I had a bunch more written about "wicking" and decided to not put it out there - I didn't think anyone would give a flip.

re: Davy - he was cool man, all the way to the end.

[dogman]

Re the CA question, A dp CA can limit amps, but it's not a bms. I think you can program a lvc into it as well, but again, it's not a bms. A bms will monitor each cell group, while a controller or CA lvc only monitors whole pack voltage.

If you are familiar with your packs, and know damn well they are well matched, then just watching the total pack voltage on the CA can be adequate. That's what I do, and get by fine. I just stop early enough to not have a cell below 3.65, typicaly I stop with all cells not below 3.8v. Now if I should have a cell drop below 3.5v when all the rest are at 3.8, that packs going straight to the recycle pile anyway. So I don't feel so much need to have a bms. I simply check all my packs about every 10 cycles with a cellog 8, and balance those that actually need it. So far, I've not had any pack go bad in just 10 cycles, unless I just screwed up royal like having a paralell connection come undone. If something like that happens the overdicharged pack is obvious, it's the one scorching your hand when you touch it.

Typically I notice a pack needing balancing because it's .1v off on one cell every time I check. That pack gets marked for watching, and when it gets more and more unbalanced, I start checking that pack more often. Eventually I know it's time to junk it.

If you plan on discharging your packs deeper each ride, then of course you need a bms, or at the least a cell level voltage display.

[Kinni420]

heres a pic of the wiring stand i got for 2 bux.


RAWRRRR!!!!

so what about this charger

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ducts_id=1

with this power supply

http://www.microcenter.com/single_produ ... id=0349703

saves me over 80 bux, any reason I shouldnt use a computer power supply?

[dogman]

Good price. Just make sure the ps outputs the same voltage the charger likes. The meanwells got popular because of better reliablility. My first ps was a clone of a meanwell, and it went poof. So this really cheap deal could do the same thing. Only twenty bucks or so to find out though.

[Kinni420]

this should do fine then, 1 year warranty, and Ive never heard of a computer power supply going bad when new..... and the 120mm fan helps . 18 bux plus tax and a $2.25 bus ride. and a few bucks for re-wiring harness.

Kit should be here tomorrow, i hope. wait till you see what I have to do to get this thing roadworthy lol. Will post a long pic thread.