My ultra-sufficient semi-recumbent tricycle project

[amberwolf]

it must just be my *specious* powers of fail

That's ok...Me and wheels (and brakes) don't often get along very well. Cant' keep one true more than a month.

[ddk]

it must just be my *specious* powers of fail

That's ok...Me and wheels (and brakes) don't often get along very well. Cant' keep one true more than a month.

ya gotta stop jumpin' da curbs man!

Seriously, I'm hoping the bent springer fork's front suspension, such as it is, might help with my occasional debris collisions.
The trike definitely rides smoother over the speed bumps in my area.
ATM I need to take some 'time out' with the EMoto's front rim, as I can see it's a bit out of round, although not so much to degrade rolling or handling... (too much crap on the bike lanes, only recently cleaned up by the roads department)

[amberwolf]

Pretty much *any* suspension will be better than nothing, for preventing wheel damage.

Also, making sure the wheel is built rigth and well-tensioned (even more important than how true it is) will help keep it from being damaged by some kinds of loads/etc.



I wish it was curb-hopping that destroys my wheels...I could avoid it then. But it's the roads here, and it's impossible to avoid some of the damage, when it comes up unexpectedly and there's traffic to my left so I can't go around it--or it fills the entire lane or even roadway. When I am laoded with cargo is the worst times, as I may have 250-300lbs on the rear wheel alone--and it has no suspension other than frame flex, which is not enough.

[ddk]

I wish it was curb-hopping that destroys my wheels...I could avoid it then.

'twas but a j/k

But it's the roads here, and it's impossible to avoid some of the damage, when it comes up unexpectedly and there's traffic to my left so I can't go around it--or it fills the entire lane or even roadway.

same same problems with the roads here, esp. after a storm

When I am laoded with cargo is the worst times, as I may have 250-300lbs on the rear wheel alone--and it has no suspension other than frame flex, which is not enough.

Any time I think I'm going to carry over 100#s of cargo I hook up the trailer with the motorcycle wheels/rims... cargo carrying is why I initially choose to buy a tricycle over a bicycle.
Now that I've had a tricycle (now two lol) for a few months I can't believe how convenient they are... and you always have a place to sit if things go bad...

Speaking of things going bad I have NO idea how i MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT THAT GOING TWICE THE DISTANCE ON HALF THE BATTERY MIGHT BE A GUD IDEA.
lol-caps lock ftw

that's right... I wasn't paying attention.
Instead, enjoying the ride, watching whales and raptors playing in the sky when all of a sudden... I ran out of battery.
***oh noes***

Good News
I have now successfully tested the LVC on the controller.

Not So Gud News
Walking the trike home

Stopping every so often to rest by sitting on the trike's comfy chair made me a little less grumpy than what I might have been.
ATM in whipped mode

[ddk]

(after the long nap)

today's ride revealed I made more wrong assumptions about the tricycle:

-While the riding position is very comfortable, my knees sent their complaints to the editor.
possible solution- re-installing the 170mm crank arms. With the bent springer fork there's plenty of clearance between the shoes and front wheel.

-the steering is extremely touchy... so much so that if I feel a sneeze coming on I should probably come to a complete stop.
possible solution- none, although I might point out that I've already unconsciously adjusted for the trike's tricky handling after only a few miles of riding (old dog learns more new tricks)

-Band brakes... Both the EMoto and "my" tricycle share the use of band brakes on the rear axle. Band brakes only start to work correctly after they have been wet once or twice. The wetter they get, the better they work... unlike rim brakes and possibly even disc brakes under wet conditions. They also continue to work well after they've been wet.
However before they get wet, they suck eggs.

-One of the 5S LiPo batteries had discharged to 3.15V. Possibly an underrated pack.
While it took several false starts with MAX80 charger, I eventually tricked it into doing a 100mA charge on the this overly-discharged LiPo battery. One out of the 5 cells was initially taking a charge faster than the others and the MAX80 responded by giving the less-than-informative message "BREAK DOWN" I needed to get the cells above 3.4 V before I would be able to change the charger's mode to 'balance charge' and I continued to reset the charger (three times)
After balance-charging to 3.71 volts per cell, I then let the battery rest for a couple hours, after which I performed a 'fast' charge @ 0.6A per cell to finish it up.
All cells are now sitting @ 4.10 volts
I suppose I should do a capacity test on this string of pearls, err... cells

[amberwolf]

Any time I think I'm going to carry over 100#s of cargo I hook up the trailer with the motorcycle wheels/rims... cargo carrying is why I initially choose to buy a tricycle over a bicycle.

Yeah, I do the same thing if I am planning to carry lots of cargo...but frequently I simply run across stuff I need to carry home *now*, when I am already out and about just as a bike. If I go home first to get the trailer, usually what I find will not be there when I get back, be it a sale on something or a curbside/trashbin find, etc. So the bike has to be able to carry stuff too, and so that's why the new bike will have the motorcycle wheel on it at the back, and heavy duty cargo rails, etc. Not because I always need them, but because i need them just often enough to be an issue.

Hauling the trailer around *all* the time isn't an option either, because of the road and traffic conditions; there are some places I can't take the trailer and have to go around the long way...I don't want to do that on my work commute, for instance, every workday, etc.

[ddk]

@amberwolf
yep I hears wuts yur saying
The EMoto trike is limited to about 100# above and beyond all the crap I carry on it, which includes The Hitch, an overbuilt trailer hitch made from 1/8" steel plate and 2"x2" 1/8" thick steel tubing ... -weighs about 20 pounds (heavier than the trike's whole frame LOL)
sumtimes ya just have to let those finds go to someone else... (my motto, not yours)
I scarfed a shower door yesterday- made of aluminum, nylon wheels and guides and some weird, semi-flex textured plastic
I can see it as a future lower battery box for My Trike (this project )
I already used some nylon for a chain guide so the pedal chain can comfortably clear the jackshaft.

However that leads me to today's discovery:
Today I did speed trials except... I have no speedometer so I just went as fast as the motor would take me, which seems to be faster than I want to go... even up a 5% grade- in reality...this was another battery capacity test. hmmm
I traveled 4.2 miles with a 42V discharging to 39V... the actual current use is still being determined by my charger.
-Installed the jackshaft after remounting the 13 tooth gear
-mounted the MY1018 motor
-installed 170mm crank arm... gotta love single-piece cranks because the only 'special' tool needed is a large crescent wrench.
I have the 15" model (crescent wrench, that is)- also useful for chasing small children off my lawn except- I have no lawn... and there's a distinct lack of small children anyways. Might be the reason there's also a severe shortage of used or discarded bikes. And NO, I wouldn't think of chasing small children... they run too fast.
The 170mm crank made my leg muscles hurt... however my knees voiced their approval.
I realized my knees hurt yesterday because I was likely spinning the cranks at a rate I shouldn't be doing.
The problem, and it's likely I knew about this then forgot about it, is the gearing.
My Trike uses the same gear set as the EMoto trike, which is known to have a top speed of 8MPH.-as seen on those in-the-bike-lane radar thingies-.
The difference is My Trike uses 20" drive wheels, whereas the EMoto has 24" drive wheels.

time for a gear-up.
The simplest solution is a (much) larger chainring. I pretty sure the largest I've seen online for a one-piece crank is 56 teeth. 44/14 vs 56/14 (3.14 vs 4 = not enough)
The not-as-simple-but-I-already-gots-sum-of-the-parts is reversing the order of the gearing, using a 6 speed gear cage and a (have to buy) 17 tooth sprocket on the jackshaft driving a (have to buy) 9 tooth sprocket on the drive axle, along with the 44 tooth freewheel for the MY1018 motor's 9 tooth sprocket and engineer a derailleur arm mount on the bearing hanger (likely the derailleur would then shift all SIX gears instead of it's current 5.)
(confused yet LOL)
-did I mention a motorcyclist did "the wave" LOL
so (44/14) + (17/9) = not much better (~5 if you're not handy with the calculator)

Surf's Up!

[amberwolf]

You can make your own chainrings if you want, with just a drill, a file, and something at least large enough to drill out. And a lot of patience.

There are programs out there like Sprocketeer and another I can't recall the name of ATM, that let you print out the pattern for the chainring, then you stick that onto your material, drill out the holes as marked, separate the chainring from the leftovers, and file it smooth.

The only limitation in number of teeth is the size of the material you have available, and your patience.

[ddk]

You can make your own chainrings if you want, with just a drill, a file, and something at least large enough to drill out. And a lot of patience.

There are programs out there like Sprocketeer and another I can't recall the name of ATM, that let you print out the pattern for the chainring, then you stick that onto your material, drill out the holes as marked, separate the chainring from the leftovers, and file it smooth.

The only limitation in number of teeth is the size of the material you have available, and your patience.

patience I gots lot of, as evidenced by my walk up the 8% 1/4 mile hill while pushing My Trike yesterday, stopping every 50-100' to rest. only took 1.5 hours.
if


IF


if I were to extend the distance between the jackshaft and the drive axle I could implement DUELING DERAILLEURS

or... let's just go to the pic

so wut speed would ya like?

gear up discussion.jpg (16.88 KiB) Viewed 327 times

would only take some frame extensions, a bit of welding, a 15 tooth freewheel a.........

screw it. I'll likely just make my own chainring.

[Rassy]

I have a 56 tooth chainring on the shelf. Went from 48T to 56T when running the Nexus 8 speed. With the NuVinci auto shift I had to go back to the 48T.

I don't have any plans to get down that way for the next several weeks, so send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll drop it in the mail.

[ddk]

I have a 56 tooth chainring on the shelf. Went from 48T to 56T when running the Nexus 8 speed. With the NuVinci auto shift I had to go back to the 48T.

I don't have any plans to get down that way for the next several weeks, so send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll drop it in the mail.

thanks for the offer Rassy.
Unlucky me, your chainring is for a 3-piece crank, which is quite different than a chainring for a 1-piece crank.

I just made a call to my neighbor who's conveniently in Medford (home of CK Enterprises) He's going pick me up a 6" crank (150mm the rest of the world) and a larger chainring.
A 52 tooth will get me up to 8MPH, which is probably as fast as I should go. Ck may have the larger 56 tooth ( a rare beasty)

There's also a 60 tooth sprocket from OMB warehouse, if i want to increase my grinding and drilling sk17zr
http://ombwarehouse.com/Steel-Sprocket-60-Tooth-41-Chain.html
41 chain is really thick, compared to 410 chain so the teeth have to be ground down appropriately. And since this SOLID CHUNK OF STEEL weighs 4 pounds it might be a good idea to have fun cutting out large chunks of unnecessary stuff.

or not.

[Rassy]

Okay. It didn't fit my freewheel crank either. When I used it I just drilled 5 holes in the smaller chainring and bolted them together.

If you should decide you want it just let me know.

[ddk]

Okay. It didn't fit my freewheel crank either. When I used it I just drilled 5 holes in the smaller chainring and bolted them together.

If you should decide you want it just let me know.

LOL SOLD!

PM being written

[ddk]

bummed-
not just because there's been two semi-solid days of rain but because CK's largest chainring was 44-tooth and he didn't have a 6" crank in stock.
So I've added a 6.5" crank to my collection.
The next sunny day will tell if a 6.5" crank is the majick bullutt fixing the knees AND legs complaints. (they have many many many...)

On a further 'bummed' note my sister thought My Trike looked like something a home;less person should be riding.
-yes, the homeless may be homeless but they seem to not lack for bicycles

-so much for 'cool'

[ddk]

stopped raining long enough to chain up the MY1018 and the jackshaft...
Had some light left in the day for a quick one mile run to make sure the chains would stay put.
verdict: no problemo

who said stokemonkeys are hard to do?

LOL

one from column A

should have bought colored chains.jpg (53.76 KiB) Viewed 292 times

three points for chain adjustment so no idlers needed

chained forever.jpg (49.55 KiB) Viewed 292 times

just another pic of the same stuff lol

nothing complex about it.jpg (36.4 KiB) Viewed 292 times

[ddk]

who said stokemonkeys are hard to do?

likely anyone who's attempted to make a homemade chain drive.

no pics... it's raining again.
This might be caused by living in a rain forest

On a three-mile test (*Reality Speaking*- picking up his shipment of LiPo batteries recently purchased from HK)
my final drive chain from the jackshaft to the gear cluster came off!
While all sorts of scenarios tumbled around my head on the trip back home, what actually happened is mr-know-it-all either forgot, or inadequately tightened the setscrews on the collar stop for the left bearing.
The bearing worked it's way to the right, freeing itself from the bearing hanger ( "FREEDOM AT LAST!!!")
The end of that story.

Having two motors controlled by two different throttle systems and two sets of batteries allows for a SUPER EFFECTIVE safety margin in all it's redundancy redundancy

[ddk]

OK
more anti-progress
the stoke-the-monkey along with the front motor climbs trees (no, not really but My Trike(TM) effortlessly climbed the 15% hill)
uhm, one *cough cough* minor setback.
-pedaling backwards derails the jackshaft drive chain
note-pushing the trike backwards doesn't have this effect, which is why I missed it.

what happens is the derailleur arm* bunches up because the backwards-pedaled chain is trying to reverse-drive the MY1018 motor.
Hey, did I ever say I've done the gearing this way before?
DID I?
(quiet down, rabble-rousers, rabble rozers, ribble roosers... whatever)
AND STOP LAUGHING SO LOUD!

Mr-know-it-all now knows something he didn't before this moment in time (but immediately thinks of a simple fix)(because that's how I roll)

solution: add a reverse freewheel on the jackshaft gear that drives the derailleur gear cage
(see picture)

duh yup

complete drive train 4 10 2012.jpg (15.72 KiB) Viewed 441 times

---cha-ching about ~$20 if I read Stanton-inc's web site properly... if I. misread it then ~$35... -or ~$20 for the 15-tooth freewheel + ~$15 for the 5/8" axle adapter. (+ whatever shipping will be)
Stay tuned because:
We'll find out tomorrow

*If I didn't feel the need to always have the option of a pedal-only trike, I would just drop the derailleur arm altogether.
Otherwise with both motors I have no real need to ever shift gears.
BTW the stoke-the-monkey has a top speed of 5-6MPH on the flat and LOL 5-6MPH on a 15% grade.
***successful gearing guesstamation-proven by pudding*** the 15-tooth freewheel will change this a little bit i.e slightly faster on the flat and slightly less guder on the 15%

[ddk]

if Hobby Kreeps doesn't get their back-ordered +1010B chargers in stock soon I'm gonna have to re-evaluate my charging requirements.
Charging multiple bricks of 5S cells with only one MAX80 charger is detrimental to my mental.

on a different note: in the past two days 2 sets of 2x6volt batteries on my solar system have failed. After six years the Energizer Bunny took a walk!
(the batteries were marketed as Energizer batteries but were manufactured by (if I remember right (unlikely)) Interstate Battery)
I guess it's time I put all those Rassy-supplied SLA batteries to use, as I've only been de-sulfurcating them or otherwise rejuvenating them. But so far only two have recovered completely.
Although my solar batteries have all failed I still have two in-fairly-good-shape Costco 6V batteries on the line/gen/motor re-charge system so I don't lack for a 12V source... which is gud because I'm looking at a financial meltdown in my checkbook

[ddk]

today's off-topic discussion point:
living with LiPo...

Having decided (due to cost) to power My Trike with R/C LiPo , as so many before me, have had these same insights.
1) LiPo batteries don't seem to easily get unbalanced unless you discharge them below 3.5V or so.
Therefor it's best not to discharge them below 3.5V or so (yup)
2) Bulk charging makes the most sense if your battery array is over 2 packs in parallel or 3(packs) in series because the wait time is awful using (one) balance charger. (one balance charger per paralleled battery seems to make sense, however)
3) Not knowing if anyone noticed this, but if you happen to leave your battery's balance leads and discharge leads plugged into your un-powered MAX80 balance charger overnight what happens is ... nothing.
The battery doesn't discharge at all... so I'm gonna conclude this is a safe thing to do, although I only own the MAX80 and none of the other HK chargers.
4) Of the 8 Turnigy 5s 5000ma @20C R/C LiPo batteries I now own I have two slightly over-rated packs, 3 slightly under-rated packs and 3 packs the are close enough to be called "just right". I have no fear of mixing the packs in any misch-mosh manner, although I've marked the slightly over-rated packs for reference.
5) there is, atm, no fifth point to make...

I haven't made up my mind about my charging needs. HK continues to lack stock of the few balance chargers they supposedly sell that interest me the most. (never in stock)
I suppose it's time to visit other on-line hobby stores.

If I were to build solar panels for My Trike(TM) at this point in time I would just go ahead and wire the cells for 42V and forget about using a MPPT, instead opting for a simple voltage cut-off circuit.
Note- an MPPT only really "kicks" in when a battery is within 20% of being recharged any ways- at least that's how three different manufacture's MPPTs I'm familiar with work. Before that point the MPPT bypasses itself connecting the solar panel array's total output directly to the battery---- "the more you know..."
yawn

[ddk]

see pic

the 6V on the right's been spewing it's acid all over the place

born to die

dead bunny.jpg (55.78 KiB) Viewed 418 times

the battery's plates were exposed to the air and warped to lala land

rest in peace...
I've only had to check/fill the water level in this pair once a year (although I checked them twice a year). Both batteries were good to go in December
but not no mo'
The battery on the left is likely still good but I'm gonna replace them as a pair

[ddk]

dropped in @LBS to get gear grease (I LIKE small amounts of grease for larger amounts of dollars)
Started talking about the gear ring from Rassy and what might be a suitable bolt. We go back to his used bike parts (shop) and digging around for a 56-tooth chain ring when he spies a BMX to 48-tooth chainring adapter plate

"So, how much?" (me)
"Oh, I dunno. That's a rare and exotic part..." He reply's
"Rare and exotic like a Huffy single-speed bike?" (me)
"And it's called a "Power Plate". THAT'S gonna cost you more..." (him)

$10 for the adapter plate and $4.5 for the bolts later I need to add 4 links to my chain...
...and I forgot to buy the gear grease

[ddk]

bigger than life

56 tooth chainring.jpg (60.09 KiB) Viewed 401 times

re-installed the 142mm crank with the 56-tooth chainring:
Top Speed ~ 30MPH (if I wanna crank the pedals @90RPM -which I don't)
I'll never be able to start in 6th gear again -although 2nd gear will get me up the 8% grade, which means the two motors will get me up the steeper hills without a problem

verdict: SUCCESS!
-56-tooth chainring is likely the best compromise for My Trike(TM)

Thanks Again, Rassy!

[ddk]

today was a GREAT day to ride a tricycle
which meant I decided to screw around with the seat.
I'd forgotten why I'd assembled the seat bass-ackwards so I re-assembled it in the Way Of Belize
- went through the same hilarious fumbles as described on Page 1 of This Thread ,..but with the help of my neighbor we managed to 'get er done'
My neighbor took off to enjoy the day
I loaded up batteries, sat on the trike
*NOW I remember*
too late, the neighbor left.
Installed the Belize Way, the seat is Too Far Forward by almost 5" making me crab my legs on the pedals with my knees almost touching the handlebars. ***And My Center Of Gravity Has Shifted***
But I thought-a quick trip to the lumber yard... get some ply... build a new seat-
batteries on... why change trikes?
so off I went
Bought useless stuff and rode back when a truck decided to pull out smack in the middle of the of the drive leading to my abode.
I carefully maneuvered around him but the crown of the drive to the right of the truck was so steep the trike started to tip over.
I was trapped by my legs and the handlebars so slo-o-w- lee over I went.

ouch.
Which gave me another emphany.
(pain does that to me sometimes)
Instead of building a new seat; modify the existing seat with extension brackets, solving the seat's location AND installation problems at the same time!

need one shorter bolt LOL

seat mod 2.jpg (24.18 KiB) Viewed 386 times

another angle

seat mod 1.jpg (29.81 KiB) Viewed 386 times

done
works great
I has sum lumburz I don't needs.

sticks and stones...

lumber After the Fall.jpg (56.31 KiB) Viewed 386 times

YET another view of the seat bracket

seat mod 3.jpg (16.77 KiB) Viewed 308 times

[ddk]

'nother day
and it's spitting rain

Time to build the battery box(s)
Decided against the "in-the-frame" approach because I don't want or need to bend that far over (see:above post)
Since I was still wishy-washing about the dashboard, I thought I'd start there.

Although it makes perfect sense to me to hang batteries over the fork by offsetting their weight with all the stuff I'd like to have in front of my face... it can't happen. (has to do with the 'undisclosed' solar panel holder-uppers (teknical term- means "I dunno yet"))
That limits the number of batteries I should consider hanging on the handlebars (weight, and all that goes with it)
...so I'm thinking 4 bats for 2.6kg thereabouts
There's also a charger (maybe) front motor controller, some battery monitors, two voltmeters and the structure of the dashboard itself getting the total weight up to ~7kg.
-I think this should work ok. (until I have some possible disastrous result )
Having only 10AH of battery up front determined my design of the rear bat box(s) (I'm gonna build 2 but expect to fill half of 1 for an additional 20AH -lol)
So...
using my precision methods of measuring stuff, I laid out the dashboard

precision layouts LOL

dashboard.jpg (42.11 KiB) Viewed 370 times

I cut out the pieces from 6mm oak plywood.
and then started my battery box(s) design that becomes 'semi-retro' rear fenders to go along with the theme of 'semi-recumbent' trike.
No mo' pics. it started raining

[ddk]

raining, bored, listless, bored off topic ramblings... read no further

Having installed the 56-tooth chainring, causing my pedal cadence to decline sharply, along with the shorter, or shortest cranks an adult-legged person should consider using (142mm), solved my knee and leg muscle complaints.
however, it's still raining

have a nice day