Lipo 16AH 30s pack project

[steam25]

hello crew,
well thats my first post so i should introduce myself i think.
(people who are not interested in that and just want to read about the project please scroll down to the line----- thanks)

i am from germany but living in china/shenzhen since 1 year and never go back.
some month ago i started to build my first electric bicycle. (that was before i found ES)

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everything started with this bike i build here in china.

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after an accident i build my second bike here and research E-bike stuff.

couple of month later i bought the same frame again to build a thirt bike wich became 2WD electric. i freaking love it!

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like i said before i didnt know ES so i build magic pies with GM controller, modified them and ride around about 3000km until now.
bike have 20AH 48V lifepo, goes 44km/h and have about 4400W peak.
i am in close contact to "CODD POWER" and can buy lifepos up to 96V. but sadly i have more problems as fun with these cells.
i destroyed 5 packs and 3 BMS and getting tired of this.
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long story short:
the bicycle itself teached me a lot about E bikes and after i found you guys here in ES i feel like a child with a toy bike.
its time to build a new bike for men.
i am reading here for weeks now and just bought 2x 18FET controller 90-135V, cycle analyst,4 torque arms and some other usefull stuff from lyen. parts are on the way (thanks for that again buddy!)

WHAT I NEED and why i post here:
build a battery with about 100-110V nominal, give me plenty of amps for the new bike is part of this project so i am searching long time to find a good solution. now i am running out of ideas.
chargers i saw but most just for lifepos. i have not very good experience with them so i like to change to lipos. as a photographer i use multicopters and high power lipo cells to make areal photos and videos so i have better experience with them and much more trust than in heavy lifepos...
now i fail to find BMS´s , chargers, and/or balancing solutions.
i want to buy 10x 6s Zippy lipos with 30-40C and 8000mah wich give me 30s pack and enough power for the 2 x crystalyte H3540 i am about to order from kenny.

have anybody ideas to charge and balance them? i thought about 3 yunsi 10s chargers but that will become expensive and difficult...

[recumbent]

Many of us bulk-charge our Lipo cells and just monitor them carefully with "Cellogs"

You can purchase bulk chargers for almost any voltage (they will set it up for you) from: http://www.batteryspace.com or BMSbattery in china.

I've had nothing but trouble with BMS's and so have many others, now i never use them and have no trouble.

Looks like you are pulling lots of weight on that bike, good luck with your build.

[auraslip]

Step back yo.

Anything above 23s has some serious issues with the controller. You'll need to use 150v rated fets. And these don't compare well to the 100v fets performance wise.

And another thing, when comparing 16s lifepo4 to 22s or 20s lipo you will have MUCH more speed. The magic pies may prove to be plenty of speed for you. I'm not convinced the magic pies are even capable of less power than the H series clyte motors. They are certainly capable of more torque.

If you've run the numbers in the ebike.ca simulator and find that the magic pie (try the 1606 motor in it's place) isn't going to be fast enough, just get faster wind H series motors rather than going to +100v.

Anyways, I've started writing a lipo faq on my website here: https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyele ... and-safety
I've also written a great deal of battery management and charging FAQS that you will find helpful.

Anyways, hope I could help.

[neptronix]

Dual 26 inch pies on 30S.... god damn.. that will be a rocket

I bulk charge my batteries in 10S groups in parallel, then connect them in series to get 30S, using a meanwell... but it is slow

Frankly this is a very high voltage and you will need multiple chargers in series.
One iCharger 1010b+ can be used to balance 10S groups... start with one of those.. then get yourself a big 30S bulk charging setup.. possibly using 3 current limited power supplies in series.


I'd love to see video of how fast this setup accelerates when you are done!!

[ecross]

hello steam25,

i`m also from germany and prefer to have high voltage setups!

I use serveral 20S and 30S up to 36S setups with lyen controller. For charging i use the great meanwell ps like the sp-480-48v.
This is also my travel charger, because this stuff is really small. At home i use also modeler charger like hyperion 1420, also great stuff because the power and balance power are great.
My sp-480-48V push around max. 19A into my 10S packs so they are fast full. I use 2 or 3 packs parallel.

Viele grüße aus dem herrlichen allgäu, bad wörishofen!

best regards
ecross

[dogman]

I would say try 20s RC lipo at first. Dual pies with 3000w going into each one should be quite enough. Might even want to limit to 20 amps per pie for the first tests.

Just to make sure you have the torque arms right, before slapping 4 hp into each hub.

Good brakes, good body and head armor. You gonna have some real fun.

Re charging, I think you ought to have at least one RC charger in the house, even if you plan on bulk charging. It will come in handy for dealing with the occasional pack that gets out of balance and needs a bit of tlc, and a decision to keep it or toss it. A cellog 8 is another highly recomended tool, for checking packs for balance.

There are complete RC lipo bms systems for sale in the for sale new section btw.

[hjns]

I fully agree with Dogman here.

Try 20S first.
With your planned setup it is extremely useful to get a feeling of how your bike and motors behave with higher voltage and higher amps. Start with 20S at 20A/motor. Then increase current/motor until you run into high temps for controller or motor. Especially get to learn how the throttle behaves with this power.

Then add the other 10S and try 30S
Do the same, try with lower currents per motor and learn the twitchiness of the throttle. For this high power setup you may want to consider doing a current-throttle via the CA.

Good brakes
I don/t know whether your PIEs and controllers do regen, but it will save you a LOT of brake pads. Try out the highest regen settings at 20S for both motors, and how that affects your braking especially at higher speeds.

Charging
I charge my setup at 10S with an iCharger 1010B at 8A/350W. It is a bit slow (2.5-3h) to balance charge my 30S2P 9Ah Lipo pack from 3.6V cell/level to 4.19V, so I need to start charging immediately when I come home (I don/t charge at work). Then again, I have enough capacity so that I need to charge only once every 2-3 days (depending on my driving). I am building up a bulk charge setup (MeanWells 48V+Fechter's current limiter+48V+2nd current limiter +36V ), but it is not functional yet.

Torque arms
If you are not doing regen, 2 TA's per motor should be ok. However, the regen will create torque the other way around. Therefore, consider adding at least one and maybe two TAs per motor when doing regen!! I run my rear HT3525/Lyen124115/30S combi with 3 Torque Arms.

2WD
With two high power HT/HS motors at high speed, make sure to program the controllers so that the freewheel speed of both wheels is the same at a given throttle input. Also, think about a way to let the rear motor bring you first from stop to 5km/h, and only then let the front motor start, to prevent slipping front wheel. I also choose the front hub motor in such a way that it provided approximately 2/3 of the torque at the same speed as compared to the rear motor. Also, to prevent slipping front wheel. You may not be able to achieve that with a dual Clyte setup, and may need to get a 9C in front. Play around with the sim.

[hjns]

Step back yo.

Anything above 23s has some serious issues with the controller. You'll need to use 150v rated fets. And these don't compare well to the 100v fets performance wise.

And another thing, when comparing 16s lifepo4 to 22s or 20s lipo you will have MUCH more speed. The magic pies may prove to be plenty of speed for you. I'm not convinced the magic pies are even capable of less power than the H series clyte motors. They are certainly capable of more torque.

If you've run the numbers in the ebike.ca simulator and find that the magic pie (try the 1606 motor in it's place) isn't going to be fast enough, just get faster wind H series motors rather than going to +100v.

Anyways, I've started writing a lipo faq on my website here: https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyele ... and-safety
I've also written a great deal of battery management and charging FAQS that you will find helpful.

Anyways, hope I could help.

Hi Auraslip,

So, in theory you are right. The 150V rated FETs do not allow for the same current as the 100V FETs. Then again, the higher voltage agrees very nicely with a low kv motor, like the HT3525. With 30S one does not go too fast (80km/h is plenty fast) with the added advantage that you can keep current relatively low. Methods showed very nice results with a 100V 100A (10kW) setup with the 100V rated FETs. Due to their low resistance they don't get as hot as the 150V rated FETs. When comparing that to running 126V 80A, it has been shown that the 150V rated FETs get hot.

However, this is all in a SINGLE motor. With two motors, the battery sees double the currents. And here the lipo's may feel the difference between 200A and 160A. When taking the lightest example of a 30S1P 5Ah lipo pack rated for 30C, the pack should be able to deliver 150A, almost enough for a 10kW 126V setup (75A/motor * 126V = 9.45kW/motor), but not enough for a 10kW 100V setup (75A/motor * 100V = 7.5kW/motor), the difference being 20% due to the lipo maximum discharge limitation. That battery pack would weight about 5 kg.

Of course, with 10x 6S 8Ah 30C in a 30S2P 16Ah config, the discharge rate is not an issue (480A = 240A/motor), but weight will be a real issue. At 1.4kg per brick, it will weight 14kg, almost 3-fold increase!

BTW, I like your website. Lot's of very useful knowledge, and better structured than a forum.

[steam25]

holy cow!

i thought my threat is dead and nobody want to answer a newbe here cause the reply post email function was off.
first: thanks for all the useful and more nice comments here!

ok one by one guys:
1. the MAGIC PIES i will NOT use with the lyen controller long time. and if i do this just for try with low amp setup!

2. @auraslip: thanks for the tips. i just bought 2 lyen 18 FET controller with the 150V FETs inside. they arrived and one have a short circuit now during a very soft testrun... check out the video here:
or here for normal speed. anybody an idea what the hell happend? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsotW0zT6Qo
i just checked out your webside. and YES your advice to have a look is helpfull! thanks a bunch

3. @neptronix: yes because i am living near the JUNSI factory in shenzhen i can get some cheap sample iCharger from them and celllogs as well! should i choose the logs with internal memory? i think i dont need the,. and can i connect 2x 4s Lipos in 1 logger?
p.s.: go pro videos from first rides will be done that time! ( ECROSS du hast PN! )

4. like i said today i got 2 lyen 18FETs racing controller, 4 TA and CA. (should be enough for my project...)

5. @hjns: i agree with you both. of course i will start slowly and raise the power step by step.
GOOD BRAKES: i have massive 203mm shimano hydraulic brakes in front. 180mm hydraulic rear.
Torque Arms: yes 4 pcs are waiting to build in soon. but i think i will let a factory make a new reinforced frame first.
CHARGING: i will try the junsi iCharger.
2WD: i already ordered and paid 2 pcs H3540 from kenny. he will put in some good bearings and 2,5mm wires for me. they are paid and done in about 9 days. he give me 2 pcs 72V 50A crystalite controllers for free for my project to test. nice guy!

[hjns]

Either you got Kenny to deliver you a sensored Clyte, OR you have a special sensorless Lyen 150V controller, OR you will build in the hall sensors yourself, OR you will have a problem..... Just curious what the answer is

[steam25]

kenny send me 2 sensored H3540 for my 2 sensored lyen controllers.

mhhhh ... the magic pies will stay on that bike you see at top.
i think i will build a complete new bike. the alu cube frame is ok. but sure not for 80km/h +

i open this threat to get some ideas for a good battery. -->which i have now. thanks.

and maybe we can just continue to talk about everything else like you guys did before?
i dont want to open 5 different threats for the same bike. even i have a ton of questions.

[steam25]

today i made a big progress. for testruns i hooked up the two new 72V 50A CRYSTALYTE CONTROLLER i got for free as promoton from kenny and abused the magic pies a bit.

the stock wires get VERY hot. i think its pretty close they burned out.so i use the CA to put down the amps from 51A to 35A peak.

today i succesfully killed 8x 4s lipo batterys from my copter.

does anybody know wether i can connect the CA to both controller? in the beginning of my project i asked this question. and somebody said "noooooo problem"
i jsut cant remember who it was...
so?

[chilledoutuk]

if your using the stand alone CA then you should just be able to use the shunt as normal but split the throttle cable after the CA is connected into it otherwise i am not sure how you would connect none standalone CA's to two controllers.

[steam25]

hello crew,

i worked on my bike for the last days many hours and made some progress.

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test the crystalyte 72V 50A controller and throw in some lipo cells with about 80V

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so with about 75V i can go up to 56km/h flat with wind and 65 downhill when i pedal like a idiot not very much i think. but frightening though!

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i also attached some LED lights to make myself more visible in high traffic. (here in china ist the only way not to die every 2 minutes )

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well...not much but next week comes the new crystalyte motors. and i got my damaged lyen controller back wich means i can go up to 120V when i find a good solution to charge and controller lipos.

[steam25]

hi guys,
some news: i tested some stuff.


(or for download: http://www.file-upload.net/download-431 ... l.m4v.html )

i also researched long time for lipo cells and think i also choose the 8s turnigys with 5800mah and 30C.
8s because the cellog can show 8s wich is enough for me to watch the cell levels. dont need a LVC. only a HLC would be nice for charging with a single power supply.
but the 6s lipos are better and cheaper so i wish i could use them as well.

my big question is: can i put 2 different batterys like on 1 cellog and show as single pack?can i share the MINUS from both batterys? is there another way to show every cell from a 24s-32s pack on 1 screen? if not i think i want to try a DIY solution.
a monitor screen where i can see every cell would be great i think and should be also interesting for all others of you...

[steam25]

well, because nobody answer me i just continue post my progress

today the 2 repaired lyens arrived.
(yes i smoked both cause an unknown reason again) but thanks of the worker near here i got them fixed.

to make both controller work with 1 CA i bought this shunt today:

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75mV at 100A means to calibrate the CA shunt to 0.750mOhm right? but as we all know the CA goes only to 0.763mOhm.

i didnt know that before and 3 people told me i can use this shunt for SURE in the CA.
whats the right rShunt value

[potatorage]

I really like the LEDs! They're so bright, where did you get them?

[steam25]

i am working with a LED factory together and sell them in group orders for a forum. 1 meter have 4300 lumen. it take your eyelight in 2 seconds! its awsome bright!

[steam25]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMC4XjnSN9s

[amberwolf]

i am working with a LED factory together and sell them in group orders for a forum. 1 meter have 4300 lumen. it take your eyelight in 2 seconds! its awsome bright!

Which forum? What kind of pricing? There's people here that would be interested in them.

[hjns]

to make both controller work with 1 CA i bought this shunt today:

IMG_1707.jpg

75mV at 100A means to calibrate the CA shunt to 0.750mOhm right? but as we all know the CA goes only to 0.763mOhm.

i didnt know that before and 3 people told me i can use this shunt for SURE in the CA.
whats the right rShunt value

Hi there,

No problem. Just put the CA into high current mode. See the manual for more details. I also run an external shunt with a specified resistance of 0.250 mOhm. However, when calibrating using a fixed current (used both a low current of 5.0A at 10V and at 10.0A at 40V) via my iCharger, and I endd up with an Rshunt value of 0.350 mOhm.

[steam25]

if i start the next group order i let you guys know ok?

thanks for the tip with the high setting. but i dont like it. kilowatt??? i want to see watt. i bought a new shunt. 200A at 75mW = 0,375.
it means i config the CA to 3,750 right??? (oh pleaaaaase tell me i am right...)


well...today i spend a great day in shenzhen.

visit JUNSI and grab a box full of CELLOGs

china is a wonderland full of awsome stuff we boys looooooove!
so i open my backpack and made it full. after it was full i made a bag full. and after that i made another bag full. and later i bought 2 aluminium boxes and made them full with stuff as well. the boxes i will use as lipo pack holder. all the electronic should fit inside. and 30s 10Ah lipos too.
lets find out how that works...

[hjns]

if i start the next group order i let you guys know ok?

thanks for the tip with the high setting. but i dont like it. kilowatt??? i want to see watt. i bought a new shunt. 200A at 75mW = 0,375.
it means i config the CA to 3,750 right??? (oh pleaaaaase tell me i am right...)

As mentioned, it may be right. It does pay off to calibrate the CA anyway with a known current. You don't want the CA to underestimate the current, and then you are left with a dead battery in the middle of nowhere.

[steam25]

thanks buddy, i will read the manual again.

[steam25]

short question... the torque arms outside from the frame on back wheel or inside the frame direct beside the motor?