Motobecane DS Fantom, BMC 600W torque and now Lipo build

[kfong]

Any progress?

Some, but been busy with other stuff. Lately, been working out how to install a rocket mass stove so I can heat up my garage. Too cold to really use it during the winter. Bike builds are inside but take up space. The Fox rp23 rear shock is holding air, can't wait to see how that performs. Picked up parts to rebuild the hydraulic chamber of the rear brake. Bike is going to kick ass this year in the trails. Been working on the RC Kona build as well.

Here are pics of the shells, They are dimensionally correct, but messed up on the appearance of the right cover. Good enough for use.

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You can see how wide the new packs are going to be, not too thrilled about it, but it should still be rideable. 4 1/4"

space between covers.jpg (42.61 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

I had to make a mold for the space in between, would of been better to start with new molds but didn't want to go through all that. I still have to make molds for my Kona and DH frame.

mold for spacer.jpg (27.39 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

Here is the Kona being worked on, it has it's own thread.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =6&t=34805

kona motor mount.jpg (80.02 KiB) Viewed 1392 times

[kfong]

Had some more time to work on the bike. The batteries are a tight fit. Currently waiting on connectors. Lots of wiring to be done and it looks like it will be done while on the bike, there is no room to remove the packs like I could with the Konions. The CF shell fits on the left side, but looks like I will need to mill out part of the right side due to the main sprocket. Weather is getting nice and I really want this bike finished.

batteries are on a fiberglass carrier

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Hard mounts to be bolted onto bike

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Batteries just barely fit. You are looking at 15 ahrs, 12S 6P configuration

battery rt.jpg (117.68 KiB) Viewed 1297 times

Kevlar straps and double sided tape to secure packs

battery lf.jpg (110.92 KiB) Viewed 1297 times

[shock]

Lookin good! That a lot of lipo! Next time around I'm going for the 5mah batts. Wiring was a bit difficult on mine too, but it was totally worth the black friday price.

Are you planning on charging all 12 cells at the same time with 1 hyperion 1420i?

[kfong]

Yep, the Hyperion can do 14S, so 12S isn't a problem. Best to use a 24volt supply rated over 600 watts to make use of it. Two server supplies can easily do this as long as one of them has a floating ground.

The form factor of the smaller packs worked out better. I don't think I could come close to the capacity with the 5ahr packs. They are just too large to optimise the space.

Finally have the wiring planned out and had to ordered some more connectors from ep buddy. Should be a slick setup when done. I'll post pics of the details when wired. Have to CNC an opening in the left shell for the db25 balance connector. A bit of custom wiring to do but I still want plugs for everything, so I had to plan it out. Can't wait to get it road ready. Only have my cyclone setup for trail riding currently, it's fun with the new front shocks installed but not as good as this bike in the trails.

[shock]

Awesome, looking forward to seeing the wiring, as this was the most difficult part in my opinion. So you do plan on charging that entire array 12c6p, at the same time with the 1420i. I planned to charge my 12c5p all at once, just wanted to make sure I'm not overloading the hyperion. I'm currently building a 24v 575w power supply using HP server supplies. Are you going to hardwire the balance taps? Or make a PCB for them or something? Can't wait to check this bike out!!

[kfong]

I made a pcb board for the balance taps using a DB25 pin connector as posted earlier. The connector will be mounted onto the shell, but set back. I will use a cover to protect it from dirt. The wiring took some time to plan out. I will be cutting up one of the DB25 boards to create a harness out of it using cables purchased from EP buddy to simplify the wiring build. This will keep things simple. I'll post details as it comes along.

EP buddy does sell a 6 to 1 balance connector, but it would not be ideal due to the various locations of the packs. I will be creating a modified harness by cutting up harnesses purchase from them and mixing it with my chopped up DB25 circuit board. I won't charge this setup without balance taps, due to the way it's setup. I won't have the luxury of removing the packs for charging so I need to make sure every charge cycle is error free. The carbon fiber cover will be used to prevent any fire incase there is a problem. Once the covers are on, visual inspection won't be possible. Due to the harsh trail riding conditions, my biggest concern is a structural error due to connectors rubbing into the packs, connections coming loose, or possible friction. I should of covered each pack with a layer of tape, but this didn't occur to me till I was already securing the packs into the frame. I will however wrap tape around it before I secure the wires and perhaps fill any spaces with hot glue or silicone to maintain the small distances between packs. Last thing I want is a pack to shift from a hard jump and slowly grind itself open overtime. It's pretty secure now with double stick tape and kevlar straps. Anything can happen overtime though.

The hyperion won't have any problem charging large packs. It protects itself, limiting any excess. It's the power supply that will have the most difficult time of it. Sounds like you are set with your power supply.

Awesome, looking forward to seeing the wiring, as this was the most difficult part in my opinion. So you do plan on charging that entire array 12c6p, at the same time with the 1420i. I planned to charge my 12c5p all at once, just wanted to make sure I'm not overloading the hyperion. I'm currently building a 24v 575w power supply using HP server supplies. Are you going to hardwire the balance taps? Or make a PCB for them or something? Can't wait to check this bike out!!

[kfong]

Here is the one of 4 harness I need to make to connect all the balance taps together. It's a 3 to 1 setup but the length is specific to the bike and uses all plugs. I cut up the cable from this http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... cts_id=127
They use nice silicone wire that is very flexible and heat resistant. The only drawback is the silicone sheath is not abrasion resistant so care must be taken they dont get cut. Two sets of the cable will do the right side while the rest will do the left side bank of cells. Each half will be treated as one 24volt pack then joined in series to make 48volts.

Ep buddy does sell a 6 to 1 cable, but it would of been combersome and not specific to my bike. Using their cables and some soldering it has saved time building up a harness.

The PBB board is cut up from the DB25 board seen earlier. It was cheaper than having a custom set of boards made.

harness build0.jpg (85.67 KiB) Viewed 1325 times

Using aligator clamps helps with the soldering. You just need to be sure all wires end up being in parrallel. Testing with an ohmeter afterwards to verify wires did not get crossed.

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After this, the power cables will need their own set of harnesses.

[kfong]

Finally had time to finish the power harness. I had to CNC a small buss board out of pre-tinned circuit board material to keep the wiring from getting too crazy. Then each one of the wires had to be fitted to the battery so there won't be any high spots for the CF covers. I'm hoping to get it all wired this weekend and finally get the bike in the trails again.

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Loaded up on the solder to keep the current levels high.

finished power cables.jpg (101.21 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

[kfong]

Nearly done. As you can see there is very little room. Things are barely fitting. The wiring is sticking out a little more than I had planned. I would of taken more pictures during the build but it was just too time consuming wiring it. Left side looks worse. Not my favorite part of the build. When done I should be able to balance charge without taking anything apart. The right side packs are all paralleled together, same as the left side. Then I just series the two packs together to get 48volts. The shell just barely fit between the pedal, worried that my foot might drag along the side of it. The biggest issue I have are the lenght of the connectors, they take up more space then I thought. Will know how it all comes together when I get it sealed up. I used indoor/outdoor clear duct tape to secure the wiring and packs. The tape will keep the kevlar straps from moving as well. I injected latex caulk into the ends where the packs meet to further buffer and prevent chaffing. These packs will be taking alot of trail abuse and need to be as secure as I can make them. Looks like the controller will need a new coat of paint.

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[shock]

That's definitely looking tight! But well thought out with the wiring. You can always permanent parallel to save space and eliminate the connectors. I ended up doing my motobcane a bit differently, as I removed the packs sitting under the lower shock mount. It there ever were a catastrophic failure in the shock mount or shock mounting bolt, it would come down and puncture the packs under it. Probably very unlikely, but I plan for the worst and hope for the best! We gotta do a meet / ride soon.

[kfong]

I was able to get the covers on, looks like I will have to cut away the right side to make room for the front gear. I will also need to cutout an opening for the DB25 balance connector as well as make the center section to hold the two covers together. At least the wiring part is completed.

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left cover.jpg (134.25 KiB) Viewed 1228 times

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Joe, I try to avoid soldering live connections when possible. It would also make servicing the packs a lot more difficult. It won’t be easy to service as it stands but it can be done. If I were to do it again, I think I would have gone with Anderson connectors. They are a bit shorter and much easier to put together with crimping tools. As soon as I get this setup on the road I’ll let you know so we can do a ride. It should be done by the end of the month. My other bikes just won’t have the range I need, or still have work to do on them.

[kfong]

Here is the balance port installed. The bike is finally ridable. I currently have both shells taped together for a testing until I finish making the center sections to complete it. At least I can finally ride it and see what will be needed during the shake down.

I had to CNC a carrier for the balance board so it can be attached to the shell.

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Balance port carrier2.jpg (103.96 KiB) Viewed 1188 times

The balance port is actually recessed below the surface of the shell. I plan to make a cover for it but for now tape over the opening works fine.

balance port installed.jpg (96.45 KiB) Viewed 1188 times

[kfong]

Update, bike has been running great with a couple of cycles into them. Balance port has worked out very well. I've taken it to the trails twice and have had one fall already. I still need to complete the center section, shells are currently just held on by tape. I had problems with the rear hydraulic brakes and had ordered a rebuilt kit earlier for the brake handle. No luck, not sure if the dot 5.1 brake fluid from finish line is incompatable with the avids juicy 3. The new seals expanded and created the same problem. The piston would seize due to the rubber seals expanding. This is probably what happened with the original seals when I replaced the brake line. Instead of dealing with it, I ordered another set of brakes off of eBay. It seemed easier than to flush the lines and get another rebuilt and still not be sure if that is the problem. I can work on the old brakes later while it's off the bike instead and reduce my down time. Very frustrating not to be able to ride with such good weather looming. I also notice the bladder chamber's rubber boot had expanded as well causing it not to fit when put back. I don't know if this is typical or really due to a reaction from mixing in brake fluid from finish line. If that is the case then all the seals in the brake system are compromised. I need to order brake fluid from avid from now on. Anyone else have this problem?

[full-throttle]

Are you sure it's DOT 5.1 (glycol) and not DOT 5 (silicone) fluid?

I made that mistake once.. very $$$

Avid works well with DOT 4 btw

EDIT: google "finish line dot 5.1 recall"
what colour is your fluid again?

[kfong]

Here is the brake fluid, on the back it said specifically not silicone based. Fluid is a clear thick liquid. Got my new brakes, but already see leaks from the seams. After wiping them down, it seem ok. Hopefully I didn't get screwed by another ebay purchase. It was stated as new and pretty much looks new, but the purchase was from china. Not sure if these are factory rejects or old stock. I just hope they work out. You can see the faded lable signifying earlier leaks. I have a complete set so I can at least swap out the front set to get a working setup, but will avoid using the finish line brake fluid just to be safe.

[kfong]

Damn, my luck. Found this from a search.

The manager of the LBS called me and asked me to return a bottle of Finish Line DOT 5.1 brake fluid. Finish line evidently had filled some of the bottles with mineral oil instead of DOT 5.1. The lbs said that the brakes would lock up with the first use and not release. I think that the mineral oil might also damage some of the various seal materials beyond use.

That is exactly what is happening.

Are you sure it's DOT 5.1 (glycol) and not DOT 5 (silicone) fluid?

I made that mistake once.. very $$$

Avid works well with DOT 4 btw

EDIT: google "finish line dot 5.1 recall"
what colour is your fluid again?

[kfong]

Looks like Finish Line will be covering my damages. Waiting on a check from them. Nice to know that the company stands behind it's product. I'm up and running finally, I had to replace a rear spoke during the down time. Put the bike through Pontiac lake trails yesterday. I did 20 trail miles and only used up half the capacity. Bike is running great.

The front tire is running Stan's getto tubeless setup. So far it's holding air, not sure how reliable this is. Going to stick to the thick inner tube and liner for the rear tire. I do like the light feel of the tubeless tire. The main concern is a loss of air and not having enough air pressure to pump it back up in the trails. Carrying a spare inner tube is needed, but kinda defeats the idea. Running Stan's in an inner tube on the Cyclone setup on the rear tire. It looses pressure when pushed hard. I think the movement of the inner tube and the tire is working against the sealing properties. Currently on the fence with the Stan's product. Hated the green slime stuff, that ended up leaking and causing an impossible patch repair and mess two seasons ago. So far a thick tube and liner seems the way to go, I can still repair it in the woods if needed.

I'm loving the fox rear rp23 shocks I installed this year. It is butter smooth on the trails and worth getting. The bike feels amazing in the trails. It's very close to my ideal single trail bike. Not sure how it could be better, other than new front shocks. Current ones work quite well though.

I haven't had much time to finish the covers, just enjoying the ride for now. Batteries are protected, just need the center section for fire proofing. The balance port has made charging so much easier and I can check on individual cell banks during a charge, making it easier to do a check after a hard trail ride or fall, since visual checking isn't practical on this setup.

[kfong]

Thought i would post an update. I've been just riding the bike. Haven't had much time to work on the battery covers. The balance ports have been working out well, so that gives me some reassurance that things are running good.

Met up with shock for an ebike ride. He was across town so it gave me a chance to test out the distance capability. I ended up riding a total of 46 miles and used up 21ahrs. I also pedaled most of the time but was never tired out from it. He is the third ES member I have met so far. Thud and grindz145 were the other two during a thunderdome event last year. I'm pretty sure I can now easily do 50 miles and up to 75miles or more if I keep he speeds below 15mph. Hoping to cover a lot of distance this year.

[litespeed]

That is one hell of a long way....46 miles.

I'm spent after just 35 miles.

What rim/tire are you using on your BMC? I'm installing mine on a GT Force 6" travel bike here in a few days. Going from a 700c to a 26" rim so my torque should go up as my speed goes down.

Tom

[kfong]

Since I use this bike mainly for the trails. The rim is a standard 26" and the tires are raptors for off road use. Hardly road efficient, but I do have it a 40 psi. I felt fine the next day and could easily do another long ride. The shocks on the bike really helps to smooth out the ride. By far my favorite ebike build.

That is one hell of a long way....46 miles.

I'm spent after just 35 miles.

What rim/tire are you using on your BMC? I'm installing mine on a GT Force 6" travel bike here in a few days. Going from a 700c to a 26" rim so my torque should go up as my speed goes down.

Tom

[kfong]

Latest breakdown, was in the trails today when the bike started acting funny. I thought it was a bad connection. The throttle kept changing on me. I could not find anything wrong with the connectors so I cut short my ride. On the way back I noticed the speed indicator on the CA going over 100 miles per hour. This was higher than my 99 max setting. I took a clue from that and reset it to 0 mph. That solved the thottle changes. I now have a CA with a bad speed indicator. I will have to take it apart and see what's wrong. The CA has been reliable up till now. Apparently when it went past 99 mph it would cut off the throttle to limit the speed. Hopefully it's an easy fix. The wheel setting is at 2011, the same as it has been when I calibrated it. Everything else on the CA menu checks out. I have to verify the speedometers output next. I might have to do a full system reset as well.

[shock]

It was great meeting up Vince! Ive been thinking about putting knobby dirt tires on mine ever since I rode your setup. One option you could do is run no CA. Voltmeter is enough gauges for me

[kfong]

Hi Joe, you will have to try out the trails I ride. I've been riding so much my right hand actually needs a break from it. It hurts each time I ride now. It's the half twist throttle position and hand fatigue of holding the throttle position. I haven't been able to come up with a better solution. My ideal setup is to use a torque sensor and only pedal input but I have not been able to find a reliable sensor that is affordable. It was also injured during a windsurf session, bike riding just hasn't allowed it much chance to heal.

I can do without the CA by just using my Smart Switch, but I kinda like having the voltage, speed, capacity and other info available when riding in the woods. It allows me to estimate when to turn around or if I can do that one loop once more. It was really useful the day we did the ebike meet. I didn't have any range anxiety since I could see what was left and how fast I was burning up the packs. I just need to tear it down and scope out the signal. Hopefully it's an easy fix.

[kfong]

i took the CA apart. Signal going to the sp pin is clean. It goes from 5 volt to ground when magnet passes through the sensor. Either the processor is bad or the signal conditioning circuit is bad. Since I don't have the schematic I will have to contact Grin and see if they can help.

Just discovered this while searching their site

With Stand Alone CA units shipped prior to June 2007, the capacitor used to filter the signal from the speedometer pickup was not always adequate at eliminating switch bounce from the magnet sensor. This could cause brief periodic speed glitches in the +100 km/hr range. Simply repositioning the magnet would generally cause the problem to go away, but if it continues then capacitor C6 on the back of the circuitboard should be increased from 1nF up to 30-100 nF.

It looks like I have a debounce problem. Although mine is ver. 2.1

Well, that was an easy fix. Apparently the trail riding moved the magnet into a position where the debounce circuit was overloaded. Works fine once I repositioned it. At least I know what to do if it happens again and setting the default speed to 00 to disable any speed restrictions.

Update:
Rode it this morning, bike is running great. Setting the max speed to 00 was wrong. All I got was a 13 mph max speed, back to 99 allowed me to run at 23-24mph again. It really should have a speed disable function.

[kfong]

I did 44 miles today. The last few miles I had to pedal without power, mostly 20-25mph on the streets and what pace felt good in the trails. With the larger capacity I can ride from my house to the trails and still have plenty of capacity to explore. My ass now gets sore from the long rides. This is the first time I have been able to drain the packs from a ride. Found one bank lower than the rest. It didn't take long to balance, but I will keep monitoring that bank after any full discharge. Total capacity put back into the packs was 24.256 amp hrs. Voltage cutoff was at 43 volts.

I actually forgot to reset the CA 44.13mile 22.7ahs so a couple ahs are unaccounted for.

I did do 46miles all pavement but only used up 21 ahrs a couple week ago, was kinda tired to ride out the pack and it was getting dark. Pretty sure I can hit 50 miles if all pavement and peddling while at full thottle most of the time. The bike is setup good for peddling up to 25mph. The more I ride the better my legs get a helping out. I notice this at the end of each riding season but seem to be getting them in shape already.