Crystalyte 5404 / 5403 UPGRADED! LAST CALL

[neptronix]

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If there was only smile that depicts eating popcorn...

-methods

No kidding. This thread is a trainwreck. Worse than what happened with the Crystalyte HS/HT motors.
I really hope the greyborg thing works out. I haven't been screwed by Crystalyte before, but i am tired of hearing it happen to everyone else.

[Philistine]

Just to be clear, I don't blame Xlite for my problems. Apart from the fact that two of my disc brake holes are not machined properly, the maching on my motor is fine. My problems began because my drop outs on the grey borg, being part of a rear swingarm that compresses (as opposed to say, a solid or hardtail frame which keeps its width relatively constant), meant that when I tightened my nuts, it compressed the plastic cap, cutting the wires. It is totally my fault, it is just that with my HS3540 in there, because the phase wires are thinner, the cap didn't cut into the wires. But because we had fatter phase wires installed on the 5404, I needed to ensure there wasn't any compression.

I really do blame my stupidity on the initial damage, it is just what now follows that leaves me in an emotional wreck, because I find changing hall sensors on any motor like dentistry through the anus.

But I do emphasise this for other 5404 buyers if they haven't installed, unless your drop outs maintain their width/rigidity, make sure the plastic plug cap is not being compressed.

[gensem]

Cromotor is being good to me. I cant speak for everyone but my two motors are working good and I had no issue installing.
I really wish someone could do a 5404 vs cromotor just to see the outcome.

[Andje]

Just to be clear, my motor is great. I can see that the Axle metal is cheese, but I havent threaded it yet. I used the spacers in a 150mm dropout and it fit perfectly, centered, no dishing, it's great. I am hitting 100 km/h easily on 8-10000 watts, and did a bunch of medium speed offroad today and it was great.
I see a lot of people complaining... that is fine Im sorry your experience is not ideal But I have to say that

Worse than what happened with the Crystalyte HS/HT motors.

is WAY not true. I got in on the methods prebuy of the hs motors, and those had more issues then the later proper width versions. I burnt through two of those, replaced innumerable halls and was eventually stumped by a motor that had been advertised by kenny as a step forward and was clearly a step back.
I personally don't feel that the inside of my 5403 reflected the same kind of shitty quality that the HS had. My performance so far over a couple days has been very positive.

[Philistine]

Just to be clear, my motor is great. I can see that the Axle metal is cheese, but I havent threaded it yet. I used the spacers in a 150mm dropout and it fit perfectly, centered, no dishing, it's great. I am hitting 100 km/h easily on 8-10000 watts, and did a bunch of medium speed offroad today and it was great.
I see a lot of people complaining... that is fine Im sorry your experience is not ideal But I have to say that

Worse than what happened with the Crystalyte HS/HT motors.
is WAY not true. I got in on the methods prebuy of the hs motors, and those had more issues then the later proper width versions. I burnt through two of those, replaced innumerable halls and was eventually stumped by a motor that had been advertised by kenny as a step forward and was clearly a step back.
I personally don't feel that the inside of my 5403 reflected the same kind of shitty quality that the HS had. My performance so far over a couple days has been very positive.

Completely agree, that was what I was trying to say. I have no issues at all with my motor, it was my stupidity on the install alone. That is what is so frustrating for me, if I had just been more careful on the wiring exit with install I would be out giving this motor a right Max Hardcoring, and by the brief spin I got to have on it and the insane weight and heat shedding ability of this thing, I just can't wait to get it going again.

[ZOMGVTEK]

I have a few miles on my 5404 now, and its working out quite nicely so far.

The way the wires exit the motor leave something to be desired. The little plastic thing that holds the wires to the axle was spinning on my motor, and started to cut the insulation off the hall wires after a few hundred rotations. I epoxied the wires onto the axle, and epoxied the plastic spacer onto the axle so it won't turn and cut the wires. The wires run straight out the slot in the dropouts, and my dropouts are thick enough that its a gentle bend to clear the axle nut. I made a mark on the top of the plastic spacer so I can easily verify it has not been spinning and cutting into the wires. This should no longer be an issue. The big flat piece I assume is for shipping purposes, and not intend to be installed, which would make the axle nut clamp on the wires obviously causing an issue. It has been removed.

I tightened the axle nuts semi-tight, and they didn't strip. I did this twice so far. The dropouts will be made to clamp, so that the axle nuts aren't important. That basically eliminates that issue.

What else is wrong with these motors? Mine appears to be fine, but I don't have that much use on it yet.

[voicecoils]

Another E-S member stopped by the other day to test fit their group buy 5404 in their Stealth Fighter.

It came with spacers to go from 135mm to 150mm. We immediately removed the outer plastic wire guide, left the inner and added 2 ebikes.ca "c-washers". They're nicely made and open on 1 end.

The wheelbuild will require dishing the rim towards the disk side, but otherwise things are looking fine.

After fitting we spun up the motor and it sounded very nice and smooth. A good start!

[Philistine]

Homer Simpson built a robot!

I just put my motor back together with a replaced hall and it works! Now I just need to get my 24 Fet controller repaired so I can properly punish this motor for my sins. I also fabbed up some aluminium spacers to make sure this doesn't happen again (much like VoiceCoils idea with the C washers).

Soon as I get my 24 Fet going again I can get the mascara running on this motor. Woo Hoo!

[wojtek]

The way the wires exit the motor leave something to be desired. The little plastic thing that holds the wires to the axle was spinning on my motor, and started to cut the insulation off the hall wires after a few hundred rotations. I epoxied the wires onto the axle, and epoxied the plastic spacer onto the axle so it won't turn and cut the wires. .

there are 2 plastic thingys on the disc side - one that is going "inside" the motor and the other one [on the outside] i am not using the external one. and i have filed the one at the entrance of the motor so that the dropouts are pressing against the metal part and not the white thing. The wires have plenty space to go down between Doc's TA... seems fine to me.

During the build, i have taken out and put back in the motor many times. Im careful with the thread on the axle and it is fine so far. I have not tried to install disc brakes but will definitely need a spacer.

[Evoforce]

I have started a new thread in the ebike general discussion titled 5404/5403 The good The bad The ugly. I am hoping we will all put our info there to help, inspire, brag, discuss fixes to problems etc. Also showing your project would be nice. Plus If we can discuss what equipment to go with these would be helpful.

[Hyena]

Good call evoforce, I was just about to do the same.
Hopefully everyone has their motors now (and if not PM me if you haven't organised delivery) so we should stop posting here and start talking about it in the other thread where we can keep track of useful info.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39231

edit: just noticed my post clicked this thread over to 50 pages - that's a nice round number to end this epic saga with

[Handyhappy1]

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I am hitting 100 km/h easily on 8-10000 watts, and did a bunch of medium speed offroad today and it was great

.
I am wondering for how long you ran at 100km/h and if the motor got extremely hot at that speed. Have you run continuous for say 10 mins. and then checked how hot the motor was? I am trying to establish a benchmark for the abilities of this motor. I have the 5404 and I do not expect it to go as fast as a 5403 but I can run those power numbers with ease. Please let me know how the motor is at displacing heat and does it cool down quickly. I have installed a temp probe in mine and I will be trying it out tomorrow.

[oatnet]

I have started a new thread in the ebike general discussion titled 5404/5403 The good The bad The ugly. I am hoping we will all put our info there to help, inspire, brag, discuss fixes to problems etc. Also showing your project would be nice. Plus If we can discuss what equipment to go with these would be helpful.

You may have missed this, but this discussion thread for the motors has been around since April 1st, don't miss out on that content:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=38300

[Andje]

i didnt put my temp probe in yet. The motor got hot, but I was thrashing it on and offroad for about 30 minutes to get it hot. In my experience running wot is not as innefficient as simply accelerating from a stop over and over again. So that's the kind of riding that I would say will test the motor, just like any motor. I did find that since it is such a huge heatsink it takes a long time for the covers to heat up, then when you get it home and let it sit it takes like 3 hours for a max temp non ventilated motor to cool to room temp.

[Handyhappy1]

Ok thank you. I do not intend to ventilate the motor as I am going to be using it in rain and dirt. I imagine the motor would not last long in that environment with big ventilation holes on the side cover plates.

[wojtek]

Ok thank you. I do not intend to ventilate the motor as I am going to be using it in rain and dirt. I imagine the motor would not last long in that environment with big ventilation holes on the side cover plates.

apparently experience show that they are doing well with side cover holes + the Justin experiment shows that you cannot waterproof a hub motor, just not possible.

the only worry i have is winter and plenty of salt on the roads. Salt sucks.. Having holes will definitely let more salt in..

[Andje]

Air holes do not let in dirt and water, they only let out heat. If you are worried about rocks or dirt and you want to ignore the hundreds of e-s members with huge holes in their covers and 0 reports of failure due to it, that's up to you , but you could glue some window screen over the insides of the holes to avoid that problem. The water just gets OUT easier with the holes. And personally, I didn't find my bike usable in winter conditions; rear drive tends to push you straight on those slippery corners, so salt was never an issue for me.
I do know I have 4 other hubs with holes, and that the only reason my x54 isn't swiss cheese yet is I want to get the holes done on a mill to look pretty this time. I might also pursue water cooling, but I haven't decided yet.

[methods]

I have run up to 2" holes - never an issue.
Certainly not with water.

I can see the concern of a pebble being jammed between the windings and cover (only real failure mode) - but I have never seen it happen. I understand that it is not a logical argument - but I have put hundreds and hundreds of miles on my bikes in the dirt with no issues.

Water = zero concern
Mud = extremely little concern
pebbles = not something I worry about at all

There is a secondary helper here... when the hub is opened up you can *smell* it burning long before anything else. It is a very distinct smell, you will know it when there is a problem... along with the plumes of smoke Hubs dont usually die at 40mph - they usually die while going very slowly just doing something stupid. (high load, low eff.)

-methods

[Andje]

It is a very distinct smell, you will know it when there is a problem

OOOH BOY do i know that smell. Methods is right; it is very distinctive, and I have smelt it before I realised something was amiss electrically, even rolling at 70km/h it you smell it wafting up; it is definitely the first sign you are about to push a bike through what feels like pudding all the way home.

[Nanoha]

I think it smells rather like roses...

[Tincan]

You twisted man.

[amberwolf]

If more salt gets in the motor...just wash it out at the end of the ride. To prevent any damage to the motro from the salt, paint it inside first with that red insulation paint a few people have already used.

So far the only hub I recall reading about here on ES that actually got windings destroyed was one by I think El_Steak that was a motor with internal fins glued on--a fin came off and got stuck in the winding/cover/fins and shredded stuff. Bad Hair Day.

It wouldn't have mattered if his was vented or not.


My 9C has been using the huge-holed covers from the 9C/GM I got from Icecube57 a while back, and even with all the dirt and dust here in Phoenix, and all the metallic road debris, rocks, etc., that abound on our always-under-destruction streets, I've yet to get anything in there. Even dust has been minimal--I get more dust in my house, layered on everything, from one night with the doors and windows open than that motor has gotten in it the whole long time (half a year? more? I forget) the motor's had those covers on it.


Not much dust to see there, right after taking the cover off to swap it to one modified for rear-wheel use:

DSC06189.JPG (77.59 KiB) Viewed 425 times

DSC06192.JPG (69.42 KiB) Viewed 425 times

[Handyhappy1]

Ok holes work to my advantage I get it next problem... I tried to install my rim and it appears that I have no spacer supplied to me that keeps the chain sprocket( mine is 3 speed) away from the rear dropouts. Could someone please take a picture of it so I can machine a piece on the lathe or perhaps washers installed on the axle will work as a spacer.

[megacycle]

If more salt gets in the motor...just wash it out at the end of the ride. To prevent any damage to the motro from the salt, paint it inside first with that red insulation paint a few people have already used.

So far the only hub I recall reading about here on ES that actually got windings destroyed was one by I think El_Steak that was a motor with internal fins glued on--a fin came off and got stuck in the winding/cover/fins and shredded stuff. Bad Hair Day.

It wouldn't have mattered if his was vented or not.


My 9C has been using the huge-holed covers from the 9C/GM I got from Icecube57 a while back, and even with all the dirt and dust here in Phoenix, and all the metallic road debris, rocks, etc., that abound on our always-under-destruction streets, I've yet to get anything in there. Even dust has been minimal--I get more dust in my house, layered on everything, from one night with the doors and windows open than that motor has gotten in it the whole long time (half a year? more? I forget) the motor's had those covers on it.


Not much dust to see there, right after taking the cover off to swap it to one modified for rear-wheel use:

The attachment DSC06189.JPG is no longer available

Looking at the photo and from what you have said, excuse my newbnessness, but has anyone modified or made say, 3 spoke cover,s like mags and maximise exposed area and protect the windings somehow.

imagesCAJUSQM6.jpg (8.69 KiB) Viewed 358 times

Besides it looking mega IMO

[methods]

I dont know about this batch of motors but the HS and HT motors require a space between the freewheel and hub.
You can find them dirt cheap on amazon in bags of 10
Any reputable bike shop should have them for sale for a buck or two.

Here are the units I buy:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GSON7Q/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00

I was supplying them with the HS hubs - looks like I need to buy another batch. Price has gone up on those bastards...

If you do manage to jam your freewheel on you will need a modified freewheel removal tool that fits over a 14mm axle.
Lots of people sell them - here is one for sale on ebikes.ca (scroll down to FWTool: http://ebikes.ca/store/store_motors.php

-methods

Ok holes work to my advantage I get it next problem... I tried to install my rim and it appears that I have no spacer supplied to me that keeps the chain sprocket( mine is 3 speed) away from the rear dropouts. Could someone please take a picture of it so I can machine a piece on the lathe or perhaps washers installed on the axle will work as a spacer.

\\

EDIT: IF you just screw on your freewheel (but dont JAM it) you can back it off by using a pair of big needle nose pliers. Always use liberal grease before installing a freewheel if you intend to get it off one day... all that leverage can really bind the steel into the aluminum. I grease the crap out of the threads before I install now.