Increasing the range by Pedal Assist?

[rui_fujino]

I was wondering if I can increase the range by pedal assisting. The simple answer is Of cos YES! but would it be significant enough to pedal or just throttle?
I've got a 20s2p lipo setup and my 52t - 11t combination allow me to pedal up to 35mph which is great! Last couple rides with about 30% pedalling I've managed to get 30miles of range average speed on CA is 15mph but of cos this doesnt mean I was cycling at 15mph...

Anyone got any idea if Pedal Assisting is worth the effort?
PS: I do not use Pedal Assist, I just pedal with motor

[jkbrigman]

I was wondering if I can increase the range by pedal assisting. The simple answer is Of cos YES! but would it be significant enough to pedal or just throttle?
I've got a 20s2p lipo setup and my 52t - 11t combination allow me to pedal up to 35mph which is great! Last couple rides with about 30% pedalling I've managed to get 30miles of range average speed on CA is 15mph but of cos this doesnt mean I was cycling at 15mph...

Anyone got any idea if Pedal Assisting is worth the effort?
PS: I do not use Pedal Assist, I just pedal with motor

rui - the answer is YES. Do you have a Cycle Analyst? Using that device, you can see in real-time the effect your pedaling has on efficiency. An interesting thing I have found out about pedaling is that while humans may be said to make 100-150W consistently, when you pedal and substitute for battery power, you can easily save 200W of motor power.

I've found that pedaling will nearly cut my Wh/mile in half: 20Wh/mile if I don't pedal at all and 13Wh/mile if I pedal a lot at speed. Likewise, my recumbent has a 52t-11t combination that allows me to contribute significant energy at over 25mph.

Now: I may be confused about your question - I see you've done two builds, but I can't tell if you've used a CA on those builds? Might I be telling you something obvious to you and not be aware?
JKB

[rui_fujino]

[quote="jkbrigman"
rui - the answer is YES. Do you have a Cycle Analyst? Using that device, you can see in real-time the effect your pedaling has on efficiency. An interesting thing I have found out about pedaling is that while humans may be said to make 100-150W consistently, when you pedal and substitute for battery power, you can easily save 200W of motor power.
I've found that pedaling will nearly cut my Wh/mile in half: 20Wh/mile if I don't pedal at all and 13Wh/mile if I pedal a lot at speed.
Likewise, my recumbent has a 52t-11t combination that allows me to contribute significant energy at over 25mph.
JKB[/quote]

Yea I've got CA but I only cycle while at speed and I pretty much always start from the traffic light by using motor. another word, I'm not saving that much energy... Also, I never really looked at Wh/mile..lol I'll see how I'm doing in future!

[jkbrigman]

rui - the answer is YES. Do you have a Cycle Analyst? Using that device, you can see in real-time the effect your pedaling has on efficiency. An interesting thing I have found out about pedaling is that while humans may be said to make 100-150W consistently, when you pedal and substitute for battery power, you can easily save 200W of motor power.
I've found that pedaling will nearly cut my Wh/mile in half: 20Wh/mile if I don't pedal at all and 13Wh/mile if I pedal a lot at speed.
Likewise, my recumbent has a 52t-11t combination that allows me to contribute significant energy at over 25mph.
JKB

OK, so wait: maybe you were asking about pedaling from start? Same deal - it helps tremendously.

[SamTexas]

but would it be significant enough to pedal or just throttle?

It's very significant at low to medium speed, 20mph or less.
It's negligible at high speed. At 30mph or higher it's too Insignificant to even bother.

Of course the above statements is based on the assumption that you REALLY pedal and not just fake pedaling for show.

[neptronix]

Depends entirely on your speed.
Most people only put in a hundred watts or so.

I set my 20" magic pie to do 15mph via cruise control and pedaled... could get power consumption down from 200-300w all the way to 80-100w if i really tried. 2-3x more efficiency..

OK, now try that at 35-40mph. That 100-200 watt you put in is a lot smaller percentage

[amberwolf]

On my heavy bikes, if I pedal hard from a start (difficult to do with my knees the wya they are, most of the time), and don't hammer the throttle, I can bring my typical Wh/mile down from 29-35Wh/mile to 27-33Wh/mile, for a 2.5-mile ride with about a dozen complete stops and starts. That is even if I do not pedal past about 7-8MPH, just doing it to help get started, then use the mtoor only from there thru 20MPH where I cruise.

Naturally, I don't do this except to test things or if I am riding a very long way and think I might need the range. Mostly I hammer the throttle on startup and keep it that way till I am up to speed, cuz it's easier.

So yes, pedalling can help a lot, especially if you have lots of full stops.


As others noted above, it also can make a big difference to the motor power usage, but that depends on how your setup is made, and the speeds you ride. If you are riding in the inefficient speed zone of the motor, then pedalling will make a lot more difference than if you are up there in it's efficient zone.

[snellemin]

I tried pedaling along with the motor on my setup to increase range. My gearing is 38T/12T and basically max out at 18mph@35% throttle setting. I got a best of 40 miles range out of 8Ah. I had a few burst of power here and there, but still not bad out of a 24s2p 5Ah setup.

[dogman]

Depends on speed. Your puny 100w effort, if you are even able to sustain 100 that is, is nearly nothing compared to the 1000 w or so you need to go 30 mph. But 10% is still measuable, if you can really put that much pressure on the pedals at 30 mph with your gearing. If your bike can put out 3000w leaving the stop sign, then your 100w of pedal first won't matter too much. Likely you are feathering the throttle trying to save your tire.

More likely, you are not geared for pedaling that fast, and might only actually get 50 w into the rear wheel. Now it's 5%. Not sure 5% is worth much. However, faux pedaling still works your heart lungs to nice health benefits, and keeps your ass more comfortable on the seat by supporting lots of your weight on your toes instead of your crotch.

At lower speeds the pedaling is very much worth the effort. Traveling at a speed that needs 300w, even a lame 50w pedaling effort is now a much larger percentage of the whole, and can extend range quite a bit. 30% further range is quite possible by pedaling 100W. Go even slower, and 50% is definitely possible, but now that's talking about 10 mph travel.

And of course, you can extend range infinitely by not using motor power at all.

[Pure]

Put simply, on a normal upright bike with no modifications, you are going to have little input/effect at anything over 20 mph. Amp draw usually starts going up after 20 mph due to the increase in wind resistance.

For the past week or so I've been riding with a fried controller. It worked fine it just wouldn't draw more than 7.8 amps once it warmed up. So I've been getting around but at a really slower speed. About 14mph @ WOT... It's actually taught me to enjoy my ride more. But what amazed me was the watt savings. (sorry guys I speak in Ah/Amps,miles) I'm getting 2-2.5 miles per Ah, compared to my usual "restricted" 1-1.5 miles per Ah. And at these lower speeds my pitiful 60% input actually makes a difference.

[JennyB]

At the most extreme you can do as I do and not use any power at all wherever you can pedal easily in top gear. Then your range isn't in distance but in metres climbed, and is inversely proportional to your total weight. I reckon I can always get there with battery to spare if I allow one watt hour per metre.

[neptronix]

I tried pedaling along with the motor on my setup to increase range. My gearing is 38T/12T and basically max out at 18mph@35% throttle setting. I got a best of 40 miles range out of 8Ah. I had a few burst of power here and there, but still not bad out of a 24s2p 5Ah setup.

You need a much bigger front chainring, or a 11T 7 speed DNP freewheel in back.

I can pedal to 40mph on a 26" wheel on 11t rear to 60T in front.

[snellemin]

I tried pedaling along with the motor on my setup to increase range. My gearing is 38T/12T and basically max out at 18mph@35% throttle setting. I got a best of 40 miles range out of 8Ah. I had a few burst of power here and there, but still not bad out of a 24s2p 5Ah setup.

You need a much bigger front chainring, or a 11T 7 speed DNP freewheel in back.

I can pedal to 40mph on a 26" wheel on 11t rear to 60T in front.

I'm happy with my current setup. Keeps me low key on the bike trails.
I use to have the 9 speed 11T setup on my other bike and it was fun while I was on the road for my daily commute. Now that I'm taking a different route to work, I can't go much faster than 20 mph anyways.

I had the 7 speed 11T freewheel on the EVG, but didn't like it with the stock front chain ring. The chain use to rub onto the frame with the 11T engaged. The 13T was fine, but didn't like that much for pedaling at 18mph. I found a cheap Regina 17T-12T 6 speed freewheel and that doesn't rub at all with the 12T engaged. I could go with a bigger front chain ring, but don't want to cut up the plastic cover.

[neoplasticity]

also depends on how hard you're pedalling. a really fit rider can output 600+ watts for 10 minutes. I can output about 250watts for 10 minutes and i thought i was good until i saw the other people at strava.com

[dogman]

Most of us are not that fit though. My death race bike is geared fairly tall, and I can pedal hard at 35 mph. On the track, the corners slow you to 25-30 mph, so you could pedal some out of each corner.

But I could only do it for about two laps, then I'd need a rest for a few laps. Optimisticly, I could perhaps put out 300w, but more like for 3 min, not ten. No way I can put out 600w for long like when I was a kid and charged up mountains on bikes. I did weigh about 50 pounds less then too. On a 40 mile ride, I bet I only put out about 75v continuous. So it only affects my range positively if I'm riding at 400w or less. 20 mph or less.

Pedaling always has a positive effect on my comfort level on the bike. Just sit, and you start asking about more comfortable saddles. Stand the pedals some, and your ass is happy.

[ProDigit]

You don't really need pedalling all the time.
It costs most electricity to start from standstill to upto speed (the acceleration process).
Remaining accelerated on a straight (horizontal) plane, takes very little from an engine.

IMHO, one could create a nice bike having only a 200W engine, just enough to maintain speed. Accelerating from a red light, or traveling uphill (a few degrees) should not make a person very tired, as the acceleration process only requires a few seconds of physical labor, and driving uphill can be 50% compensated by the electrical engine.

I love this video of this guy, his bike goes pretty fast too, with an engine powerful enough to accelerate slowly to 50MPH (=lethal speed).
He also uses his pedals to do the initial startup, but soon the bike goes too fast to catch up pedaling with the engine.

[rui_fujino]

You don't really need pedalling all the time.
It costs most electricity to start from standstill to upto speed (the acceleration process).
Remaining accelerated on a straight (horizontal) plane, takes very little from an engine.

IMHO, one could create a nice bike having only a 200W engine, just enough to maintain speed. Accelerating from a red light, or traveling uphill (a few degrees) should not make a person very tired, as the acceleration process only requires a few seconds of physical labor, and driving uphill can be 50% compensated by the electrical engine.

I love this video of this guy, his bike goes pretty fast too, with an engine powerful enough to accelerate slowly to 50MPH (=lethal speed).
He also uses his pedals to do the initial startup, but soon the bike goes too fast to catch up pedaling with the engine.

If we dont need to pedal at all the time then we wouldnt be talking about increasing range since it becomes impossible..lol I do agree that you can help the range by starting up from dead stop. when we go over 30mph it uses more energy to keep us going at high speed therefore every pedalling will help us gain more distance. I dont think using 200w MOTOR would help the person stay at high speed cos if this is true then the motor is capable of reaching high speed on its own without pedalling.
Im sorry but that's stealth bomber ...so he is not exactly using small hub either...and I believe he's got +72v setup anyway so I cant imagine him pedalling it more than most of us who pedals to increase range

if you love that video you should watch more by GCinDC. he has more exciting vids
PS: engine = motor...

[SamTexas]

I love this video of this guy, his bike goes pretty fast too, with an engine powerful enough to accelerate slowly to 50MPH (=lethal speed).
He also uses his pedals to do the initial startup, but soon the bike goes too fast to catch up pedaling with the engine.

Are we watching the same video? Where exactly did he do any pedalling? None that I saw. He did move his legs every now and then, but I'm sure he did that out of boredom or wanting to get some blood circulated.

[ProDigit]

I love this video of this guy, his bike goes pretty fast too, with an engine powerful enough to accelerate slowly to 50MPH (=lethal speed).
He also uses his pedals to do the initial startup, but soon the bike goes too fast to catch up pedaling with the engine.

Are we watching the same video? Where exactly did he do any pedalling? None that I saw. He did move his legs every now and then, but I'm sure he did that out of boredom or wanting to get some blood circulated.

That'd be beside the point of the discussion, but yes, he pedals to accelerate from every stop light. Somewhere he meets up with gas powered scooters, and pedals them right by, aided by his 'motor'.

[SamTexas]

That'd be beside the point of the discussion, but yes, he pedals to accelerate from every stop light. Somewhere he meets up with gas powered scooters, and pedals them right by, aided by his 'motor'.

Yeah right! He was moving at speed of at least 30mph, and he was pedalling right by at a cadence less than 30. And it's not besides the context of this thread. Fake pedalling is just that, fake. He could have pedalled BACKWARD to achieve the same thing.

[ProDigit]

I don't know if you reply just because you feel the urge to be right or not,
but it shows you haven't seen the whole video, before posting your post.
In the last third of the video the rider stands still at a number of stoplights, and pedals to gain momentum.

I don't even know why I need to explain myself if you just criticize what I wrote without verifying; if you'd only seen the whole video you'd save yourself (and others) some agitation time

[rui_fujino]

I don't know if you reply just because you feel the urge to be right or not,
but it shows you haven't seen the whole video, before posting your post.
In the last third of the video the rider stands still at a number of stoplights, and pedals to gain momentum.

I don't even know why I need to explain myself if you just criticize what I wrote without verifying; if you'd only seen the whole video you'd save yourself (and others) some agitation time

ok ive watched it twice and yes he does use his pedal twice in whole video from dead stop. However, from my knowledge of his bike, its too heavy to pedal that lightly to get that much of speed easily. so i think he was using motor +pedal to start off (at best if not faking pedalling )
I believe this video is quite irrelevant to to this thread since your first post suggested we dont need to pedal once we get our speed going is not true.

[SamTexas]

However, from my knowledge of his bike, its too heavy to pedal that lightly to get that much of speed easily. so i think he was using motor +pedal to start off (at best if not faking pedalling )

That's what I was trying to tell him. But I guess it's too much for a guy riding a fake ebike with pretend-only pedals to understand. This guy came to this thread not to discuss pedal assist. He came with the attempt to convince people he bought a real ebike (only in his deluded mind of course.)

xb700li.jpg (44.59 KiB) Viewed 347 times

I believe this video is quite irrelevant to to this thread since your first post suggested we dont need to pedal once we get our speed going is not true.

Agreed. The video is just show off of a ridiculously expensive ebike and has nothing to do with pedal assist.

I don't know if you reply just because you feel the urge to be right or not,
but it shows you haven't seen the whole video, before posting your post.

Wrong. It shows that you lack the most basic understanding of pedal assist.

[ProDigit]

So it seems like everywhere in the world there are a bunch of teenagers on forums, who can't seem to agree to be wrong.

That's what I was trying to tell him. But I guess it's too much for a guy riding a fake ebike with pretend-only pedals to understand. This guy came to this thread not to discuss pedal assist. He came with the attempt to convince people he bought a real ebike (only in his deluded mind of course.)

No need to start lying and getting rude?
I came to rob your mother, clear?

Agreed. The video is just show off of a ridiculously expensive ebike and has nothing to do with pedal assist.

Shows pedal, motor assisted,doesn't it?

Wrong. It shows that you lack the most basic understanding of pedal assist.

Ow? In my impression, any motor that is assisting a bike with pedals is pedal assisted.
Perhaps your puny brain is not large enough to understand other people can understand this without having to spend 5 weeks getting your GED before you understand.

[rui_fujino]

okay, forget the last few posts. Now think this way, is a guy on the video increasing the range by pedal assist? Answer is yes but only a little as 5% or less.
the thread is about using pedal at high speed or average speed(+40mph = high speed, 20~30mph = average speed). Now it is common sense to pedal at the beginning to save the power for acceleration.
ProDigit, I guess my point is,

Remaining accelerated on a straight (horizontal) plane, takes very little from an engine.

is wrong. for ES members, we have high speed ebikes thus we use a lot of power to keep us above 30mph.

Rui