non-hub mountain ebike kit or custom builder

[bluesrocks]

I psyched because I recently came into some money, so now I'm seriously ready to get my first ebike going!

Seeking suggestions for a non-hub e-bike kit (good/solid quality)
or
reasonable priced ebike builder (Im @ central Michigan) for an all-terrain/mountain bike

I don't have a workshop yet, so the main problem for a simple custom e-bike build seems to be the (custom) gear reduction transmission. If I could simply buy one of those, plus discovering descent matching components to use, I could probably assemble my own ebike. But Im not sure one exists...

Here's my wish list.
-uses (at least) rear wheel gears
-motor and pedals fully freewheels, pedals can rest while motor runs and visa-versa
-efficient reliable motor (I gather brushless is best...)
-lrg 48v bat bank allows use of a 48vdc sine-wave inverter to 120ac for laptop and cell phone
-stay under $2.2k or so

Thanks in advance for your help. Can't wait to get biking again.

[bluesrocks]

Also..
I've been kicking around an idea for a simple two speed (hi/low) pulley drive system by simply installing 'large' but different sized drive pulleys attached to each side of the rear wheel (so that it just clears the rear break system and the frame members), plus using a two sided drive motor (would a hub motor w/out wheel work???) might be all the gear reduction needed. Or maybe I could get into a 29" bike for greater gear reduction?

The idea is individually engaging one of the drive sets at a time with spring loaded tension adjustment pulley. When both the pulleys are not engaged, the belts slip freely (may need some cleaver coaxing) and freewheel providing no drag for pedaling. The pedals freewheel normally as the rear wheel spins.

Im hoping for top speed around 25-30mph and lots of pulling power (250-300lbs ttl). I'll try to provide graphics but that might take some doing as my pc is down and can't get a new one for a couple weeks.

[Thud]

hey Blues,
I can hook you up. I live on the southern most rim of Muskegon county. I am just busy as Puke till november...
But we can get you a 2 speed unit, through the gears set up....or something new to fit your needs & budget.
I have a couple customers in front of you but my rep is good.

[bluesrocks]

Thanks Thud, I appreciate it. I have doubts that I could wait that long as I don't have transportation yet, but it might work out, hard to say right now.


I wonder if they make gear reduction transmissions like for scooters and such that might reasonably be re-purposed to work on a bike?

[Jay64]

Bluesrocks, I was going to recommend Thud, but I didn't know how busy he is at the moment. If he does get time to work on your stuff, he has some TOP NOTCH quality in his builds. I would say he is one of the top builders from this site, and even some of the other guys that are the other top builders on this site use some of his stuff. Good luck with your build.

[MadRhino]

If you are in a hurry to spend your money and can't wait to ride, buy an Optibike

[LI-ghtcycle]

There are lots of options in the mid-drive category, and I would direct you to the folks building things with the NuVinci developer kits, I believe you will find several types that meet your conditions:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30641 (look at the last 3 - 4 pages for information on things being built)

I should have some information on my own mid-drive, and other than not having a freewheel at the motor, my build should meet your requirements, and I don't have much more than a couple of hand tools to build what I am building, a lot will depend on what style of bike you use too.

I think that a mid-drive motor with a NuVinci rear hub as transmission is the easiest way to achieve your goals.

Here is a link to my current build:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29810 (again, look at the last few pages to see what I have so far, mostly it's the design as I have just now been able to get together all the parts to start putting it together)

If I lived closer to ya, I'd be happy to help you build it, good luck and glad to hear you're getting the help you need to allow you get back on the road!

[bluesrocks]

Optibike (12 Grand!!!) is waay tooo expensive. The more I think about it, I could wait for Thud to do my build. Can't wait to get a new to me pc as mine has been broke for the last three months, wont boot... Then I'll do up some drawings, but thats probably a couple weeks away.

[bluesrocks]

Update
Im house shopping on a meager budget and so far it's been slow and frustrating.

On the back burner, I also have a leaning trike (standard and recumbent seating) project I'd like to build, but finding a new home is the main priority (real-estate and transportation). I prefer moped over automobile for cost and living green, can pay friends to drive me around for occasional bad weather, big haul or longer trips.

I found an interesting alternative to an ebike build. but only because I really like (independent lean steer/leans like a bike) leaning trikes for their improved turning performance (a trike that corners like a bike). This 50cc trike scooter/moped seems to be a standard moped with the front wheel removed and replaced with the front wheels of an ATV/quad. As far as I know, only three internet businesses sell it in USA (not exhaustive search), 2-Cali and 1-Colorado. The videos seem to indicate its an independent lean steer design, so when the driver exerts lean, the front tires lean in unison with the rear tire.

http://www.scooterdepot.us/trike-gas-motor-scooters-150cc-3-wheels-moped-p-730-160.html click for movies of the trike/scooter





For my leaning trike project, I would love to find an off the shelf front end steering and suspension. But I want it more narrow than the Sunny trike, closer to 32" instead of 52" wide. Suggestions to acquire an off the shelf solution? Perhaps adapted from a mini sand rail or dunebuggy.

[sk8norcal]

that china scooter would be cool for an electric conversion.
much cheaper than a MP3...
would like a test ride..

check out my tilter blog to get some ideas..

[bluesrocks]

I've been gone from here for a while busy looking for housing. Here's a cool looking "leaning" trike I recently found. (I mistakenly said, "The company/distributor is out of Pennsylvania!" But I cant find the website link so I withdraw the Pennsylvania comment.)

$1,719


And here's a rear suspension(!) trike, and not high priced!
$719

another pic of same model

[sk8norcal]

not sure how you got pennsylvania?
cyclone is taiwan.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-erecumbent.htm

steering is linked with the lean, dont think that is a good idea...

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... hp?t=83681
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... hp?t=79823

http://www.youtube.com/user/cyclonebike

[neptronix]

bluesrocks... that is a WAY cool idea!!

http://www.scooterdepot.us/50cc-differential-gear-equipped-trike-gas-motor-scooters-p-673.html

I found one a bit cheaper here

As a 6ft, 240lb rider.. i found the bicycle oriented trikes to be too flexy and cheaply constructed for my taste. Lack of suspension presents all kinds of problems.. and i heard of the aluminum ones cracking etc..

If you wanna build basically a small motorcycle, these would be sick. All steel and probably pretty overbuilt.

[sk8norcal]

^ ?? you just linked to the same website he posted... ??

[neptronix]

^ ?? you just linked to the same website he posted... ??

my bad.. fixed.. i meant to link to a different model.

[sk8norcal]

^ that one does not lean,

these are delta leaners that are Chinese made AFAIK...
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/201 ... e-690.html
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/201 ... otors.html (korean)
http://tiltingvehicles.blogspot.com/200 ... omoto.html

[sk8norcal]

after staring at that pic,
I don't think the front wheels tilt.....
hard to say, they need to put up a video,
how to they expect to sell a $2000 tilting trike with two small pics ??
I would wait for someone to review it before buying...
I will call the US dealer, he's actually in the sf bay area
http://www.ebkit.com/contact.htm

[sk8norcal]

china tilt trike scooter 2.jpg (112.21 KiB) Viewed 641 times

[bluesrocks]

after staring at that pic,
I don't think the front wheels tilt.....
hard to say, they need to put up a video,
how to they expect to sell a $2000 tilting trike with two small pics ??
I would wait for someone to review it before buying...
I will call the US dealer, he's actually in the sf bay area
http://www.ebkit.com/contact.htm

I could be mistaken, but I find the pic quite clear that it's all wheel lean and looking similar to the front end of most any quad ATV, which I believe is essentially a 4 bar (parallelogram) mechanism. Usually there is one 4-bar mechanism for each wheel to additionally provide independent suspension.

I am in full agreement that they are too light on the documentation for the all wheel tilting trike. No video, only two pics. I'm not even sure if it has rear suspension or not, I doubt it, but that would be cool if it did. Wow, so the dealer is in San Fran. At least they are in USA! If you would, let me know which trikes they offer in stock, or what is the waiting time before delivery..

The video
Love it, great detail and point of view. Looks like a very good and simple way to provide independent suspension of each wheel while simultaneously providing all wheel lean.

[sk8norcal]

if I am understanding you correctly,
you can not just chop off the rear of a quad and replace it with a single wheel, and expect it to tilt.

you would just get a non tilting reverse trike.
correct?


from what i can see that cyclone full suspension trike got the lean linked to the steering, with non-leaning front wheels.
just like that cyclone video I posted....

[bluesrocks]

if I am understanding you correctly,
you can not just chop off the rear of a quad and replace it with a single wheel, and expect it to tilt.

you would just get a non tilting reverse trike.
correct?

Each front tire has huge suspension travel and there are no rear tires to keep the new trike upright anymore. I'm assuming both are essentially a 4 bar parallelogram mechanism. Maybe that's the source of our different perspectives. Maybe I'm not being graphic enough. I'm going to need to make a drawing...

No "chopping", LOL, carefully remove the two rear wheels and the axle which secures them all together, and solidly replace all that with a single wheel rear end, like that of a motorcycle/moped/bicycle. I'm not saying it would automatically be setup properly with no need to make adjustments once constructed. Im simply talking about the ability to perform all wheel lean from two "A" type swing arm (approximately 4-bar parallelogram) mechanism. The same mechanism that makes wheels stay (roughly) parallel to the body during full suspension travel, is the same reason all wheel tilting trikes lean, both mechanisms do the same thing, they keep the wheels parallel to the body regardless of suspension travel/body lean.

hypothetical
Put a pair of wheels behind a leaning trike, and presto gizmo, the front tires cease leaning.

[sk8norcal]

you need to lean without compressing/uncompressing the springs...

[bluesrocks]

Good point, it seems that the tilting effect may be compromised if the sprung suspension force is too great.
They have a rugged model that is NOT in stock, but they say should arrive in 2-3 weeks. The sales rep text me saying that it TILTS! He thought it might be around 3' wide. A bit wide for my taste.

This from scooer depot $1,659USA 49cc and disc brakes.

[sk8norcal]

yes I noticed that one already, a Ruckus clone...
you can tell it tilts by looking the suspension parts, similar to the Sunny.

actually, all their reverse trikes are tilters.
http://www.scooterdepot.us/trike-3-whee ... c-344.html

[bluesrocks]

I also figure all their reverse trikes (tadpole) are leaning as you noted, the front suspension is quite similar to the other one that clearly all-wheel leans. They showed a video of that one trike leaning, but to my knowledge have released NOTHING about these other trikes leaning (text, pics, vids, etc), which makes me wonder how could they build and be ready to sell a leaning trike, yet withhold any clear admission of that arguably "new improved" feature. It seems that all wheel leaning corrects the longstanding cornering handling problems of trikes.

However, I did hear by way of that floating service attendant window (at saferwearhouse but I think scooterdepot has them too) using text to answer questions. So I asked if the ruckus style 50cc trike was a leaner like the other model ,,,A instead of ,,,C and they guy right away said yes, the wheels all lean together like that other trike does. I pressed for some sort of verification, so I asked about how it operates/feels when you come to a stop, specifically, when temporarily stopping, do you need to put your foot down to keep from falling to one side or the other, or does it tend to stay upright at a stop without needing to put a foot down? He said it kinda leans when stopped but it wont fall over. He also said they do NOT have them in stock, but the shipment usually takes 2-3weeks, probably closer to 2 weeks.