Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

[njloof]

Or then there should be someone checking modules prior shipment.

We agree now that this is salvage/junkyard stuff. It should be priced accordingly.

[cwah]

Yeah, but I suppose the group buy would be in US. For me in europe it's not that interesting. So probably have to go for cells only.

Had a quote for 29.75$/cell... damn.. I better go lipo lol

Victpower's new single-cells are great, and $25/cell delivered - and are rated for 3000 cycles.

Yeah, 25$/cell delivered is great. But I've been quoted 29.75$/cell without shipping cost!! That's probably because I'm asking for a 4s1p pack. But I think I'd need help to assemble the pack (at least something with a balance plug) that's why I'm looking for pre-assembled packs

[oatnet]

We agree now that this is salvage/junkyard stuff. It should be priced accordingly.

At 17 cents on the dollar vs retail (IIRC $100/cell?), they already are salvage prices. On one of these threads, Luke posted that the price, is 1/3? what it cost a123 to make it. Because people reset their expectations that the too-good-to-be-true-new price was the retail price, they're gonna be frustrated. Too bad the modules weren't simply marketed as used at the same price. I expect whoever Victpower is reselling them for, shot themselves in the foot by saying they were new.

The best thing they could do now is sell them by voltage, since lower voltage means dead cells, or a low state of discharge, and has less value. A 28s pack that is 92v full price, 89v $100 less, 86v $225 less, etc. It's still a gamble - but...

Because I lucked out on the packs I got, and all of my cells were good, I'm going to see if I can stockpile up to a (12) more of the 28s - but I am going to buy them one at a time, until I get a bad one, so I can only lose out on one pack. Hopefully Victpower will make more from selling me (12) good packs, than it would from selling me (1) bad pack. Of course, they probably have limited control over the company that actually owns and ships the cells.

-J.D.

[totinen]

Or then there should be someone checking modules prior shipment.

We agree now that this is salvage/junkyard stuff. It should be priced accordingly.

Yes, and if they are checked prior shipment, we should pay more?

[deVries]

Yeah, but I suppose the group buy would be in US. For me in europe it's not that interesting. So probably have to go for cells only.

Had a quote for 29.75$/cell... damn.. I better go lipo lol

Victpower's new single-cells are great, and $25/cell delivered - and are rated for 3000 cycles.

Yeah, 25$/cell delivered is great. But I've been quoted 29.75$/cell without shipping cost!! That's probably because I'm asking for a 4s1p pack. But I think I'd need help to assemble the pack (at least something with a balance plug) that's why I'm looking for pre-assembled packs

The bare cells are much cheaper than the new 4s1p pack without balance wires that you posted about, but let's stay on-topic in this thread. This thread is about 7s3p modules. The overall odds seem to be about 50/50 whether or not you will get a good module or not. Repairs will require a lot of hassle & time to do, but it is not an impossible feat to accomplish.

The question you've got to ask yourself is why are there failed cells to begin with? No one has dismantled a module to verify these are cells from the USA A123 plant. Are they? Until someone removes a cell we have no idea when/where these cells came from. Since I can only *guess*, I think the ones marked Fisker are the modules with probable defective cells.

How many 7s3p modules do you need? Is 3p the configuration you need. Is 1p the configuration you need? If you need 1p, then it makes no sense to buy these modules. That's too much work to cut the cells apart, IMO. No one has even attempted to cut the cells apart yet that is known about. If you need 2p it might be worth it to cut too, but 1p no -not at this time, IMO.

We should know within a month or so from Sutho, or, hopefully, sooner from someone that has not reported yet. If you need a 1p configuration battery now, assembled, then Cell_Man is the only guy we know of that has built many of these batteries from these 20Ah pouches. There are efforts underway to build batteries in 1p configurations as a DIY project. Several threads are posted about these DIY builds now with various ideas on how to do it.

[cwah]

I was mainly interested in the 7s3p because of its price. At 13.5$/cell, it cost around 0.20$/wh. That's lower than any battery I can ever find.

That's why I was thinking about "re-organising" the module to have a 21s1p module... but it seems to be an impossible task for a noobie like me......


I don't need any pack immediately, but I'd like to have one. I won't however pay more than the cost of the lipo for a new pack (around 0.45$/wh), because in that case I'd rather get lipo.

[deVries]

I was mainly interested in the 7s3p because of its price. At 13.5$/cell, it cost around 0.20$/wh. That's lower than any battery I can ever find.

That's why I was thinking about "re-organising" the module to have a 21s1p module... but it seems to be an impossible task for a noobie like me......

I don't need any pack immediately, but I'd like to have one. I won't however pay more than the cost of the lipo for a new pack (around 0.45$/wh), because in that case I'd rather get lipo.

The bare cells will get you well under the lipo price easily IF you build it DIY. If you buy lipo you also will have to DIY assemble a battery too. LiPo will cost more over time, because lipo does NOT last as long as A123 time-wise or cycle-wise.

[oatnet]

I don't need any pack immediately, but I'd like to have one. I won't however pay more than the cost of the lipo for a new pack (around 0.45$/wh), because in that case I'd rather get lipo.

a123 rates the prisimatics at 3000 cycles. How many cycles do you expect to get from LiPo, and how many times will you have to replace your LiPo pack to get 3000 cycles? Even at $25/cell for the new cells, which one would be cheaper in the long run?

-JD

[cwah]

I don't do more than 200-300 cycles a year. So if I go lipo I'd expect to change to a newer battery after 2 years. And as technology evolve, we will probably have better battery then.

The key advantage of A123 vs lipo is the re-sell value once I'll find better battery. After 2 years I think I'll throw the lipo away, but the lifepo4 can still be sold.

At 25$/cell, it's only around 0.37$/wh, so still cheaper than lipo. But the problem is that assembled pack are way more expensive and cost almost twice the price of a lipo pack.



Anyway, that's not the topic. Better keep talking about this great and mega cheap module. Too sad I can't use it...

[oatnet]

I realized that the last time I posted pictures about the pack in this thread, they were probably becoming less about the modules themselves, and more appropriate for my Camper-Bus EV build thread. Accordingly, I'm posting stuff about just that pack over there now, but I will post about future purchases here.

However, I don't know if anyone has demonstrated the packs in use yet, so I will mention that I installed the (4) a123 modules in the Bus today, and did a 12.1ah discharge:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=8012&p=580320#p580320

-JD

[Indubitably]

I think you have to honestly ask yourself just how much your time and energy is really worth in the grand scheme of things before weighing the value of these cells. If you're not in a position like Oatnet to stockpile modules, it may very well be more profitable to pay a little more for domestically sourced cells, knowing that your project will be on the road and working for you instead of languishing in your garage as a pile of parts. If you ask me, it would be well worth the markup to buy these modules at something like cost + $5 per cell if they came with a guarantee. Its a little tough to justify spending $25 per cell unless you are getting a custom pack that is ready to drop right into your application at that price, since you wouldn't really be paying any more if you bought twice as many modules at $13.50 per cell, and half of them turned out to be bad. If you don't have the cash to burn, wait for the stock in your area to build up; eventually someone will start selling the modules domestically, at which point you will have your peace of mind, they will have a tidy profit, and everyone involved in the process can conduct their business without bad blood and personal resentment getting in the way.

To be honest though, I'm starting to wonder why no one has gone to the trouble of funneling these modules through a reliable contact in china. There must be guys out there like Ping who are trustworthy, and have contacts in the battery export business, but would be willing to act as a liaison if you made it worth their while. Hell, even if you had to fly someone out there, it wouldn't cost all that much to put a man on the ground in Guangzhou for a couple of weeks to receive the cells and arrange shipping if you were moving enough product.

[deVries]

Guys, no sense in hashing out the possibilities of getting something for nothing!

The labor to build a battery is significant & requires safety skills & good assembly techniques. This is *not* cheap or free to do. This is why we do DIY & sweat equity, it's "free" but for your time investment & risk of injury (search Kentucky Fried Finger), otherwise you've got the money to buy one or two of these modules & take the risk for repairs, or you go with someone like Cell_Man for something new & tested built by someone experienced.

Only *you* can decide what is best for *you*. No need to go in circular "wishful thinking" on this thread, since we can't advise you what to do for yourself.

Here are your 4 options:

1) Buy the 7s3p with pros/cons you understand or don't understand.
2) Build a battery from A123 20Ah cells. Talk about it on another thread, please.
3) Buy a new A123 battery from someone like Cell_Man. Yep, much more expensive, of course! Off-Topic since this thread is for 7s3p modules.
4) Buy a different battery that you choose to buy. Off-Topic here.

[deVries]

However, I don't know if anyone has demonstrated the packs in use yet, so I will mention that I installed the (4) a123 modules in the Bus today, and did a 12.1ah discharge:

Of course, anything you learn about the 7s3p modules is most appropriate to post about it here. We need that info here too, so anything you can add please do so here too. Either link it back to your thread from here, as you did above, or give us the summary w/link to your detailed thread too.

Thanks!

[SlyCayer]

I can't believe this a123-hating Troll is still posting in this thread, like he has any experience with the subject or something relevant to add. Obviously, a standard CBA can't handle the 1500 watt load from a 1c discharge on a 7s 60a pack. Obviously, the pack is going to deliver really similar WH at 0.1c and 1c, and probably up to 10c. Skippy, go throw your poo at something else.

-JD

LoL \o/ I got to admit, I like your way...

[peterperkins]

My three A123 28S3P modules have safely arrived at my address in the UK.

The packing is the fairly horrible but reasonably well fitted wooden crates with a few bits of foam.
Mine seemed to have survived the trip well. A few aluminium fins are dented but nothing structural or broken. Probably old damage.
Only slight bowing on one module, fixed by flipping onto it's side.
All showing around 93V and no sign of any dead groups.
Will capacity test in due course.

Also made it through customs unmolested

Total cost to me $4531 or £2822 or £940 each. ~£12 per cell. I paid via bank transfer.

Two in series will make a very nice 60ah pack for my original phev insight or a stiff test pack for my EV conversion.

So I have a spare pack for someones high powered recumbent project/rickshaw in the UK.
Buyer collects £1000 cash. Perhaps I should have bought 4

One pic FYI

[zaxxon]

As we understand now, Victpower knowingly shipped obviously defective modules and appear to be using the high return shipping cost as their protection. Before you buy a module, you should also understand, they require you to return the defective module at your cost, and also require you to pay cost to ship the replacement unit.

[deVries]

As we understand now, Victpower knowingly shipped obviously defective modules and appear to be using the high return shipping cost as their protection. Before you buy a module, you should also understand, they require you to return the defective module at your cost, and also require you to pay cost to ship the replacement unit.

What you are suggesting has now changed. Someone posted an email in this thread recently stating they no longer provide any guarantee or returns for these modules.

In other words, 7s3p are now sold "As Is".

[peterperkins]

The A123 BMS is on the ends of the 28S3P packs, each end has a 14 channel bms board. The pack is split in the middle as far as the BMS is concerned.

I was very pleasantly surprised at how close my own 16 channel BMS boards are to the correct size, so I will do a new 14 channel BMS pcb board which can take the A123 plug/socket and will fit in exactly the same spot as the OEM one, same mountings etc That will make sorting it out a doddle.

Now to source the pcb socket.

Can anyone identify the part number for the white 22pin pcb socket?

Note how the A123 BMS pcb had been butchered on the pcb marked DEMO. Pins cut off from white socket and black interface socket removed.

[Ypedal]

you guys finding any evidence of markings to indicate what year the cells were produced in ?

[peterperkins]

The BMS boards are marked 2009/2010 in my packs no idea of cell. But prob a couple of years old.

EDIT The white socket on the A123 BMS pcb has the info JST PBT GF15 on it.

The pins are 0.1" pitch same as standard header pins, so at a pinch you could use right angle 0.1" dil header but you better line it up correctly !!!!

[oatnet]

Note how the A123 BMS pcb had been butchered on the pcb marked DEMO. Pins cut off from white socket and black interface socket removed.

Glad to see more 28s3p arriving in good shape, I also noticed how that the back side of that board is completely different from mine, which uses surface mount devices instead:
Mine


Yours


-JD

[cwah]

My three A123 28S3P modules have safely arrived at my address in the UK.

The packing is the fairly horrible but reasonably well fitted wooden crates with a few bits of foam.
Mine seemed to have survived the trip well. A few aluminium fins are dented but nothing structural or broken. Probably old damage.
Only slight bowing on one module, fixed by flipping onto it's side.
All showing around 93V and no sign of any dead groups.
Will capacity test in due course.

Also made it through customs unmolested

Total cost to me $4531 or £2822 or £940 each. ~£12 per cell. I paid via bank transfer.

Two in series will make a very nice 60ah pack for my original phev insight or a stiff test pack for my EV conversion.

So I have a spare pack for someones high powered recumbent project/rickshaw in the UK.
Buyer collects £1000 cash. Perhaps I should have bought 4

One pic FYI

Did you pay taxes when you shipped it to UK? if so, how much did you pay?

[MN Driver]

Note how the A123 BMS pcb had been butchered on the pcb marked DEMO. Pins cut off from white socket and black interface socket removed.

Glad to see more 28s3p arriving in good shape, I also noticed how that the back side of that board is completely different from mine, which uses surface mount devices instead:
Mine
Image removed

Yours
Image removed

-JD

The Yours picture is peterperkins BMS that he created(really good one with tons of features including a visual display and even a wireless transmitter to see charging process from inside the house), he isn't showing the one that the modules came with. If you look closely you can see his web address and other text printed on the top of his BMS. He was posting it for comparison and to indicate that it coincidentally fits the modules.

[oatnet]

The Yours picture is peterperkins BMS that he created...

I see that now, thanks!

-JD

[zaxxon]

As we understand now, Victpower knowingly shipped obviously defective modules and appear to be using the high return shipping cost as their protection. Before you buy a module, you should also understand, they require you to return the defective module at your cost, and also require you to pay cost to ship the replacement unit.

What you are suggesting has now changed. Someone posted an email in this thread recently stating they no longer provide any guarantee or returns for these modules.

In other words, 7s3p are now sold "As Is".

Sorry you are correct nothing new. I was so worked up over their final offer last night, I had forgotten they changed the terms from when I ordered.

In my case Xin wrote me before the sale that they would replace defective module if bad. When I said I wanted to return the bad module for replacement. Xin told me her Company did not want me to send back module because of concerns around shipping, custom, and clearance fees. So I said if I can’t return for replacement then only options where to return money or send a replacement. Xin agreed to send replacement unit if I paid full shipping costs. I agreed and she sent invoice, I sent money. Next day Xin, said she misunderstood her superior and now I must also send bad module back to get replacement. AND I would alsol have to pay shipment on return unit.

My cost to ship back in a reasonable time would be $885. The total costs for replacing module would be $2,804 ($1060 item + $450 original shipping + $885 shipping cost to return + $439 replacement shipping). Victpower would not work with me. Their final offer was to sell me another module at 10% off original price and I still pay shipment.