Not easy to justify the purchase?

[cbr shadow]

I was on my way to work this morning when I pulled to a stop next to a guy on a little scooter. It was a Yamaha Vino 125. I asked "what kind of mileage do you get on that thing?" - "100 miles per gallon" he replied with a smile. I looked at online reviews and it looks like he wasn't really exagerating. People are getting 80-100mph on those things. I know many of you are from Europe where riding one of these is not taboo, but here in the land of "Bigger is better" it's pretty nerdy to ride around on a little 125cc scooter, especially for a younger person like myself. I'm such a cheapass that I'm totally willing to deal w/ that though. So anyways I'm having trouble justifying getting one, even used, because of the amount of miles I'd need to put on it to make up in gas savings just to cover the price. Plus there's the registration, plates, insurance.. Let me know if I'm messing something up here...

My 2006 Scion XB is supposed to get 36mpg, but realistically I get 31mpg to/from work. The scooter is in ADDITION to this vehicle, can't replace it.

2005 Yamaha Vino (used) = $1600

Assume gas is $4.00 per gallon.

So I'd have to drive about 17,000 miles before the gas savings paid for the cost of the scooter.. That doesn't include insurance or registration. Is it that cut and dry? If I have to put 20k miles on this thing before I'm having any savings it's definitely not worth it. Thoughts?

[Ykick]

Back in the day we used to try to justify our motorcycle addiction to wives using fuel savings but when you factor in other costs such as tires, cranking batteries and repairs any savings from the two wheel fuel column quickly evaporate.

Bottom line is that we ride for fun and sometimes convenience with regard to traffic gridlock and parking. Riding to save fuel/air is a noble effort and I believe good for our planet but it's not a cost effective reason to do so IMO.

[dkw12002]

Yes a Vino 125 would be hard to beat for reliable, cheap transportation. I owned a Vino 125. It is also extremely well made, uses regular gas and is easy to do oil changes on. Scooters are great fun. The e-bike is for riding on the side of the road in traffic for the most part. The Vino will allow you to ride in traffic. Liability ins. and registration is cheap...maybe $150 a year. I can't say about the image of scooters. I still ride a Vespa and love it. I think there are also people out there who hate adults on bikes too...especially if you wear a little helmet and bike gear. As proof of this, remember a month or so ago when a biker hit a man and killed him in San Francisco. There were many hundreds of comments from people who hated people on bicycles having nothing to do with this incident at all. You can't win. I would get the Vino 125. I guess one other thing to consider is the reduced value of your car if you put a lot of miles on it, plus maintenance costs. The Vino should be cheaper there, esp. if you do the work yourself. Fun factor? No comparison. GET THE VINO.

[salty9]

GET THE VINO.

And, if your range is not too great, electrify it.

[MattyCiii]

remember a month or so ago when a biker hit a man and killed him in San Francisco. There were many hundreds of comments from people who hated people on bicycles having nothing to do with this incident at all.

Those silly, stupid people!
You'd be hard pressed to find 100 incidents where cyclists killed people, searching all news reports since the advent of the bike. Meanwhile, automobiles have killed about 100 Americans a day, every day, for generations.
Those silly, stupid people!

Sorry for the OT post.

Get the scooter. The IRS, AAA and the JTFR all estimate the per-mile cost of driving at ~$0.50 per mile. Every mile not driven on the Scion is $0.50 saved. Then calculate the purchase, gas and insurance for the Vino as an offset. It'll soon pay off - if not in dollars, than in fun.

[wineboyrider]

I bought a used honda elite 150 about 2 years ago and can say that for the $650 I payed for it has paid for itself in spades in the money I have saved in gas and insurance...
It is a liquid cooled bike and is known for outstanding reliability so I hope to drive it until the wheels pop off. By the way I get around 85-90 mpg 8

[cbr shadow]

Good to see so many positive comments. I've had other motorcycles before, sold my CBR 1000 last summer, so while I'm sure the Vino would be fun for a little bit it might wear off quickly. It wouldn't be for the fun factor though, I was thinking pure money savings.
My car is very cheap right now to drive, which I think takes away from the savings of getting a scooter. The Scion XB was bought used, is now paid off, and I've put a lot of miles on it so far without issues. If fun is the only reason for the scooter I think I'll hold off. Sounds like the cheapest way to get around right now is still the car!

[John in CR]

What a bunch of blasphemers encouraging someone to buy a 2 wheel gasser. My crazy power ebike that would run rings and then some around that crappy little thing only costs about a penny per mile in electricity to ride. At the $6/gallon for gas down here, that's an equivalent 600mpg. Build yourself a high power ebike instead, and you can justify it by the fun it is to ride. Then the savings is all icing on the cake.

John

[dkw12002]

Besides, you NEED a car anyway cause you can't ride a scooter or motorcycle all year around. At least most people can't, if you have family, errands, bad weather, etc. There are so many factors involved though, it's hard to say if a scooter in addition to the car would save you money. I'm leaning toward NO, but it should be pretty close. If you rode a CRB 1000, the scooter would seem tame, although the light weight, 10-in. tires and short wheel base allow you to flit around which is fun. It is still a little underpowered for a 125. Top speed is 55 mph. Hey, if you rode a CRB 1000, you aren't that concerned about saving money. LOL

[dogman]

Well your car costs a lot more per mile than just the price of the gas it uses. Even if you ignore fixed costs like insurance, every mile costs at least 40-50 cents per mile. My calculations on an ebike came out to about 15 cents per mile. When I bought a cheaper chinese scooter a few years back it turned out to cost about 15 cents per mile as well. Yours might be higher, because you are paying more for the scoot.

But as it turned out, I enjoyed the ride much more on the E bike. I could take safer routes on the bike using a great bike path system here, the scoot had to go play with the cars, and then do it underpowered. But mostly, the scoot was not comfortable to ride. The yamaha, I bet, is much better. But do look hard at that before you buy. That chinese scoot I had was just not built for anybody over 5 feet tall.

Either way, scoot or ebike, the less you drive the car, the longer you get to put off buying that new one. I added about three priceless years to the lifespan of my old junker, before I finally had to go get a car payment again this spring.

[SamTexas]

Why bother with the cost comparison between a small, reliable, used ICE scooter and a car? The scooter wins hand down and by a large margin.

The more interesting comparison is between the above scooter and an ebike. The scooter beats the ebike too.

Bottom line: If COST IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR, nothing beats a small, used and reliable scooter. That's practically any Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha with a 100 to 250cc 4-cycle engine.

[cbr shadow]

Dogman, I've seen people post that cars cost .50 / mile but I dont understand how. I bought the car with 30,000 miles (now 110,000+) for $13,000 used. So even if the car died right now I've paid $0.16 per mile for it. Then factor in gas (~$4/gallon @ 33mpg) and will it's way off of $0.50/mile. I know there are other things like insurance and repairs, but changing oil is all I've had to do so far and insurance on a Scion XB is very cheap. Stil far off of the $0.50/mi. Are there other factors that I'm missing?

This purchase would be in addition to my car as stated above guys, not replacing it completely, so I'd still be paying insurnace on my car. It sounds like it's not worth it $$$ wise to buy the scooter and when I can drive the scooter to work instead of the car.

[Ykick]

Dogman, I've seen people post that cars cost .50 / mile but I dont understand how. I bought the car with 30,000 miles (now 110,000+) for $13,000 used. So even if the car died right now I've paid $0.16 per mile for it. Then factor in gas (~$4/gallon @ 33mpg) and will it's way off of $0.50/mile. I know there are other things like insurance and repairs, but changing oil is all I've had to do so far and insurance on a Scion XB is very cheap. Stil far off of the $0.50/mi. Are there other factors that I'm missing?

This purchase would be in addition to my car as stated above guys, not replacing it completely, so I'd still be paying insurnace on my car. It sounds like it's not worth it $$$ wise to buy the scooter and when I can drive the scooter to work instead of the car.

Wow, you got 80k miles from a set of tires? What about the brakes? No way to drive 80k miles city without some brake work or a hybrid.

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

By contrast small cars usually go 30-40k miles on rubber and bargain tires can often be had for $200-$300 for a set. Cranking batteries are often costlier for motorcycles than cars/trucks and many things follow suit. Oil filters, brake parts, fork seals, etc.

Depreciation is another animal but some motorcycles (Harley) don't depreciate much, if any. In fact, I used to make a tidy profit from every HD I flipped over the years.

[cbr shadow]

No you're right, I'm on my second set of tires since I bought the car, and have gone through front disks as well. I have a friend who is a mechanic and a private school who buys my parts for me at cost and I do almost all of the work myself which saves a good bundle.
I guess I just wish getting the scooter was very obviously the best option haha. I'm working on my first ebike though, so that'll be done very soon. Just saving a bit longer for a battery/controller from cellman.

[Ykick]

Trust me, I've been on 2 wheels a long damn time and tried every angle to justify the expense. That dog won't hunt but there are significant non-$$$ benefits that more than make up failure of the cost argument.

Please understand I'm not discouraging you! In fact, it's in all of our interest to get more people on 2/3 wheels and leave the damn car at home. Every car/truck off the road is one less serious hazard to deal with. If you can, go for it. Gas or no, doesn't really matter, you'll still bleed the same as any of us and the lessons you learn in traffic while building an eBike will always find a place down the road. Literally!

Btw, MSF safety courses are the best place to start with regard to staying alive...

[SamTexas]

Trust me, I've been on 2 wheels a long damn time and tried every angle to justify the expense. That dog won't hunt but there are significant non-$$$ benefits that more than make up failure of the cost argument.

Whoa! I hope I'm misreading you here. Sounds like you're saying that a motorcycle is more expensive than a car, right? If so, that would be ridiculous, especially when the OP is talking about a small reliable 125cc Yamaha Rino.

[Ykick]

Trust me, I've been on 2 wheels a long damn time and tried every angle to justify the expense. That dog won't hunt but there are significant non-$$$ benefits that more than make up failure of the cost argument.

Whoa! I hope I'm misreading you here. Sounds like you're saying that a motorcycle is more expensive than a car, right? If so, that would be ridiculous, especially when the OP is talking about a small reliable 125cc Yamaha Rino.

Not saying that at all Sam. Just sharing motorcycle experience that fuel savings alone is not the only cost savings to compare with cars/trucks. Dunno shit about scooters and never said I did. Maybe they go for 30k miles on a set of $50 tires?

[wineboyrider]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

[Ykick]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

Cool, so they sell rubber for $50/set. Do they generally last more than 10k miles? No doubt, a person will save money compared to driving their car but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

[SamTexas]

... Dunno shit about scooters and never said I did.

... but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

May be you shouldn't. 50-70mpg is pathetic. 125cc scooters with manual or semi-manual transmission can get above 100mpg in real life. My 24 year old 250cc Suzuki GN250 with 5 speed manual transmission gets 75mpg in the summer.

[wineboyrider]

I dunno much about scooter tires but every motorcycle I've ever owned only managed about 8-10k on a rear tire and the cheapest replacemen is/was always around $100. More like $250 if you go for Dunlops, Avons and have a shop mount it. Front tires generally last twice as long rear but that's still only 15-20k miles average for set of motorcycle tires which will cost $200-$400 to replace.

Some advantages of a large scooter over a motorcycle are: Tires and parts are cheaperhttp://www.scrappydogscooters.com/COMMON_PARTS.html
And my insurance is only $91 a year

Cool, so they sell rubber for $50/set. Do they generally last more than 10k miles? No doubt, a person will save money compared to driving their car but I just like to keep things in perspective and temper expectations that seem to go way up with 50-70mpg fuel consumption.

I get about 7 thousand miles on the cheap rubber, but I switch the front to the back and throw away the rear tire as it is the first to wear. The scooter for me is only a commuting vehicle, but I can save mega miles on my cars by using the scooter and my small army of ebikes.. Got the girlfriend riding one of them now for community service..
And yes even my older honda 150 which is not fuel injected gets 85 mpg easily.

[Ykick]

I get about 7 thousand miles on the cheap rubber, but I switch the front to the back and throw away the rear tire as it is the first to wear. The scooter for me is only a commuting vehicle, but I can save mega miles on my cars by using the scooter and my small army of ebikes.. Got the girlfriend riding one of them now for community service..
And yes even my older honda 150 which is not fuel injected gets 85 mpg easily.

That's awesome! My input is skewed because of experience only with large m/c's and more highway miles than typical scooter riders. I envy those cheap tires, LOL...

[dogman]

Cost per mile varies greatly. Last tiny crackerbox car like I owned, a ford festiva was surely as low as a 25 cents a mile, but in 1985 dollars. Tires were a hundred bucks, for four 12 inch tires! That was a cheap car, but calling it a real car was a bit of a stretch.

You have done very well with that car. Got it quite cheap with low miles, and got to run it through the best lowest mainetnance years of it's life. But nicer cars do tend to run 40-75 cents per mile because of higher purchase prices. You wouldn't get a honda civic with 30k on it for 13 k.

Not so nice cars are always due for a starter, alternator, battery, two cv's,shocks or struts, a timing belt, a water pump, and a set of tires and brakes. All within the first 10,000 miles. That's why they get dumped right around 100,000 miles. So the piece of crap used medium sized car can easily end up costing the poor sucker buying it a buck a mile.

Ive done calculations on all the cars I've owned in the last 10 years or so, and the best all came out about 40-50 cents per mile. That's everything including the air in the tires if you paid for that. Gas, oil, insurance, purchase price, registration, antifreeze, tires, brakes, Cvs, timing belts, valve jobs, shocks, struts for the back hatch, seatcovers, car washes, and on and on and on. The 2000 ford focus, 1998 subaru forester, and 2004 ford focus all ended up costing the about the same six and a half thou per year for 15000 miles. Multiple cars made them last a bit longer, but the basic costs for two cars that ran for the household was still a good 12 thou most years, since we'd put about 25,000 miles of driving on various odometers per year.

Bear in mind, to get it down to 45 cents per mile, I did 90% of the service on these cars. The remaining 10% is stuff like a valve job or bearing replacements that requires a machine shop.

The one ton truck, driven as little as possible, was at least a buck a mile. Suprised it's not more. Buck a mile would not be unusual for large suv's or trucks. Used to be a lot cheaper, before tires were $250 to $350 a pop for a truck. Not anymore.

Do a really good, complete and honest accounting, and most people cannot believe they spend that much. Living closer to work and driving less than a thousand miles a month really helps with annual cost, but cost per mile remains what it is.

[cbr shadow]

Dogman, you bring up many good points. There are a lot of small expenses that aren't factored in normally. I still think I'm getting off cheap right now but that's probably because I haven't yet needed the timing chain, cvs, etc.. No major issues yet thankfully.
Also I've ridden motorcycles for 11 years now so no need for the safety class. I love motorcycles but I can't justify buying the "fun" ones (high powered sports bikes) because they seem to be a money pit.

[dumbass]

I was on my way to work this morning when I pulled to a stop next to a guy on a little scooter. It was a Yamaha Vino 125. I asked "what kind of mileage do you get on that thing?" - "100 miles per gallon" he replied with a smile. I looked at online reviews and it looks like he wasn't really exagerating. People are getting 80-100mph on those things. I know many of you are from Europe where riding one of these is not taboo, but here in the land of "Bigger is better" it's pretty nerdy to ride around on a little 125cc scooter, especially for a younger person like myself. I'm such a cheapass that I'm totally willing to deal w/ that though. So anyways I'm having trouble justifying getting one, even used, because of the amount of miles I'd need to put on it to make up in gas savings just to cover the price. Plus there's the registration, plates, insurance.. Let me know if I'm messing something up here...

My 2006 Scion XB is supposed to get 36mpg, but realistically I get 31mpg to/from work. The scooter is in ADDITION to this vehicle, can't replace it.

2005 Yamaha Vino (used) = $1600

Assume gas is $4.00 per gallon.

So I'd have to drive about 17,000 miles before the gas savings paid for the cost of the scooter.. That doesn't include insurance or registration. Is it that cut and dry? If I have to put 20k miles on this thing before I'm having any savings it's definitely not worth it. Thoughts?

I just noticed you live just down the street (not really but pretty close). I'm in Wayne, ILL.

I never tried to justify it but I have had a motor scooter and or cycle since 2008. First off I highly recommend you not buy anything smaller then a 250cc scooter or cycle. Just my opinion of course but the differece in mileage isn't worth the difference is size. And yes in this case size does matter.

I crashed my 250cc Roketa last Aug. Messed myself up pretty good doing it. While still in a leg and arm cast I went out and bought a replacement. I found a Cf Moto cycle (looks like a cycle but the drive train is like a scooter) on EBay. The listing was for local pickup only. It's a 2006 and had 600 miles on it. I paid $550. It wasn't running though. It took me 30 minutes and $15 to repair it.

Bob