China Group Buys & Knowing Shipping & Customs Issues

[Ypedal]

oh i expected nothing less, but usually the driver wont hand over the box until you pay the fee up front.. 100's of packages i've gotten prior have always been this way. .. this was the exception.. i figured the driver screwed up but i was not about to demand paying more lol..

I'm seriously not trying to give you grief here, sorry if it comes across as such, i just want to try and make this process as easy as possible for everyone involved with the least amount of surprises.

[deVries]

...i just want to try and make this process as easy as possible for everyone involved with the least amount of surprises.

Hey, no prob.

When you bought smaller orders from China, under $1500, thru DHL or other private carrier did you get hit with other fees upon receipt???

[Ypedal]

Me being in canada, makes no difference if the package came from china or US or any other country.. i'm dealing with Canada Customs when i buy stuff.

Anything shipped via the postal service has been roughly 50/50 .. half the time i get charged duties/brokerage, the other half i sign for and walk away..

Items that come thru UPS, FedEx, DHL, i pretty much always get billed extras and i have to pay them before they hand the box over.

come home to notice of delivery attempt on my door, duties amount indicated, i can call in and pay by credit card, some ( dhl ) will allow me to leave cash in an envelope taped to the notice i sign and left on my door ( safe neighborhood) .. varies by company, purolator for example does not allow drivers to carry cash ( safety reasons ) .

When i got my shipment from crystalyte, 20,000$+ , the broker i chose required my credit card info to clear the shipment on my behalf.

Do your research in advance.. nevermnid people's past experiences, call the shipping company you are dealing with, and also call US customs ( wich the shipping compay will likely tell you to do as they have no say in this, unless they are authosized agents, and they charge a premium for their services )

[deVries]

authosized agents, and they charge a premium for their services

How do you find out if your shipper is an authorized customs agent, when the seller is providing the shipping as an add-on cost to buying their products. Essentially, we buy blind from China when shipping is paid by them through our paid order. It's always the sellers that charge you for shipping, so how does the buyer somehow take control to find out the details about whether your shipper is the authorized customs agent, or how the items are designated for shipping to pass through US customs, etc.

[Ypedal]

You have to communicate with the seller and ask what carrier ( shipping copmany ) they are going to use. .... they know this.. and have no reason to keep it from you.

[thedarlington]

i recommend USPS and chinapost, ecommerce like ebay lives thanks to those, i always order stuff off ebay and they pull through for much cheaper than the rest, and also by slowboat, the way 90% of stuff is shipped, it doesn't make much sense to ship something as heavy as a big battery order via air when its 10-20 days you save at 3-4 times the price, remember these will be heavy

as far as customs that should get handled upon delivery, remember COD's? (Cash on delivery) probably a hold notice at your nearest post office (try that with the other guys) theres a $5 handling fee, if its inspected and


only weird stuff happens when you ship a whole isbn container on your own since you're the one in charge of your shipment (to save on shipping) and must respond at a port bc theres no trusted person to handle the process, shouldn't be the case unless we find someone in cali to receive (bc he would be the middleman/broker instead of usps, could be atleast 50% cheaper) and there is a site somewhere where you can track that stuff online (by container only i think) btw been reading Fedex and UPS use 3rd party brokers who are very generous with themselves but thats what i read, personally i ordered a $500 battery pack from linda lin last year via EMS and then USPS via air ($$$) no problem at all

[deVries]

i recommend USPS and chinapost, ecommerce like ebay lives thanks to those, i always order stuff off ebay and they pull through for much cheaper than the rest, and also by slowboat, the way 90% of stuff is shipped, it doesn't make much sense to ship something as heavy as a big battery order via air when its 10-20 days you save at 3-4 times the price, remember these will be heavy

as far as customs that should get handled upon delivery, remember COD's? (Cash on delivery) probably a hold notice at your nearest post office (try that with the other guys) theres a $5 handling fee, if its inspected and


only weird stuff happens when you ship a whole isbn container on your own since you're the one in charge of your shipment (to save on shipping) and must respond at a port bc theres no trusted person to handle the process, shouldn't be the case unless we find someone in cali to receive (bc he would be the middleman/broker instead of usps, could be atleast 50% cheaper) and there is a site somewhere where you can track that stuff online (by container only i think) btw been reading Fedex and UPS use 3rd party brokers who are very generous with themselves but thats what i read, personally i ordered a $500 battery pack from linda lin last year via EMS and then USPS via air ($$$) no problem at all

Sorry to say, but as of May 15th, a couple of months ago, it is now illegal to send *any* lithium batteries through the US Postal system. Only private carriers can ship lithium batteries now.

Ypedal, I know the shipper, DHL, but how do you track your shipment down in China before it's shipped???

[EVPowers]

Devries and other group buyers,

I've done group buys and redistribution of 500+ A123 pouch cells in the past.
Once I got the cells, for me Fedex was the least expensive and least hassle to reship to the group members.

For shipping estimate I used the Fedex calculator to get approximate cost.
https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/home?cc=gu&language=en
Be sure to click on the little purple "Get Detailed Quote" in the lower left hand corner.
Box dimensions: 17"L x 14"W x 4"H
Weight: 19 lbs
Insured at $350 per box
Delivery to residential address.

This assumes 14 cells per box.
add 1.1 lbs per cell for an additional 1 or 2 cells stuffed into the same box (which I would not necessarily recommend doing.)

Cost for us was ~$21 to $27 per box depending of how far from my Midwest zip code the group member was located. (All were US addresses.)

When all was said and done, people paid ~$27.50 or so per cell including shipping.

Also I in some cases I would recommend putting new bubble wrap around top 2 cells since it is often all popped when the bulk shipment arrives from China. (A roll of bubble wrap, packing tape, marker, and other supplies will run ~$50 for the group buy coordinator.)

I also recommend wearing gloves when unpacking repacking just in case.

You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Best of luck and feel free to contact me if you have questions or get stuck on your group buy.

[EVPowers]

Oh, and here is a pic of me making a trip to the Fedex office with some of the batteries.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1165083454 ... 2306725650

Enjoy!

[deVries]

Hi, yes you can help out if you still have a copy of your US customs forms or what the shipper used on the shipping/customs forms for the description of the batteries. Thanks!

Btw, I'm only doing orders of 75-150 cells at a time, so this lower number will still work to cover any duds using the "group self-insurance" plan. This will also let us do orders more often w/less wait time & less hassle reshipping too.

Devries and other group buyers,

I've done group buys and redistribution of 500+ A123 pouch cells in the past.
Once I got the cells, for me Fedex was the least expensive and least hassle to reship to the group members.

For shipping estimate I used the Fedex calculator to get approximate cost.
https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/home?cc=gu&language=en
Be sure to click on the little purple "Get Detailed Quote" in the lower left hand corner.
Box dimensions: 17"L x 14"W x 4"H
Weight: 19 lbs
Insured at $350 per box
Delivery to residential address.

This assumes 14 cells per box.
add 1.1 lbs per cell for an additional 1 or 2 cells stuffed into the same box (which I would not necessarily recommend doing.)

Cost for us was ~$21 to $27 per box depending of how far from my Midwest zip code the group member was located. (All were US addresses.)

When all was said and done, people paid ~$27.50 or so per cell including shipping.

Also I in some cases I would recommend putting new bubble wrap around top 2 cells since it is often all popped when the bulk shipment arrives from China. (A roll of bubble wrap, packing tape, marker, and other supplies will run ~$50 for the group buy coordinator.)

I also recommend wearing gloves when unpacking repacking just in case.

You have a lot of work ahead of you.

Best of luck and feel free to contact me if you have questions or get stuck on your group buy.

[Ypedal]

Ypedal, I know the shipper, DHL, but how do you track your shipment down in China before it's shipped???

You dont.

Only once you get the tracking number from the shipper ( after they get payment, fill out the shipping label, and hand it over to the shipper ), and DHL scans it POP "( Proof Of Pickup ) , then can you track it.

Until this happens, you are purely dealing with the seller.

[deVries]

Ypedal, I know the shipper, DHL, but how do you track your shipment down in China before it's shipped???

You dont.

Only once you get the tracking number from the shipper ( after they get payment, fill out the shipping label, and hand it over to the shipper ), and DHL scans it POP "( Proof Of Pickup ) , then can you track it.

Until this happens, you are purely dealing with the seller.

So, does this mean we "the buyers" are dependent on the shipper filling all the shipping & customs forms correctly, including official US customs forms? There's no way to intercede at "my end" from USA to do this before it lands in the USA? How do you know if shipper is acting as an approved customs agent, so they clear customs "automatically" as agents for US customs. Is that typically the way it is handled by airfreight from China?

[Ypedal]

sorry to be blunt here man.. but you are not prepared for what you are getting yourself into !

[deVries]

sorry to be blunt here man.. but you are not prepared for what you are getting yourself into !

Well, to be honest, I don't think JRH or EVpowers "group buys" has posted these kinds of detailed questions. JRH didn't have any problems with his USA shipment w/DHL, and he did nothing with DHL ahead of time.

I didn't have any duty after the shipment arrived on my order. The only orders I get duty on are above 10 grand.

I've obviously done plenty of research at the US Customs website to know ahead of time the potential import duty surcharge, which no one has posted before either. No one has even been hit by that duty surcharge, as a separate charge after shipment receipt that I'm aware of from DHL. Only you have been hit in Canada, but that is not US Customs.

Can you please focus on answering my previous question, rather than being judgmental and bias about my preparation. I am quite confident I can handle this to completion with everyone understanding the risks of this "group buy".

Ypedal, you volunteered to help answer the shipping questions, so these seem appropriate for you to answer too:

1) So, does this mean we "the buyers" are dependent on the shipper filling all the shipping & customs forms correctly including official US customs forms?

2) There's no way to intercede at "my end" from USA to do this before it lands in the USA?

3) How do you know if shipper is acting as an approved customs agent, so they clear customs "automatically" as agents for US customs. Is that typically the way it is handled by airfreight from China? Can I see that paperwork ahead of time???

EDIT: Here is some more info posted from EVPowers about his group buy:

I do not have the [Customs Shipping] forms handy but can tell you that boxes are clearly marked as Lithium cells.
There can be some hangup at customs for a few days as they clear them. Nothing out of the ordinary.
At times I have used the shippers email customer support service to cleared things up.
If when costs come up it is clear that the receiver will pay them.

Glad to see the possible issues are being discussed...

[Ypedal]

1) So, does this mean we "the buyers" are dependent on the shipper filling all the shipping & customs forms correctly including official US customs forms?

Yes.

2) There's no way to intercede at "my end" from USA to do this before it lands in the USA?

Yes, and No.. depends.

3) How do you know if shipper is acting as an approved customs agent, so they clear customs "automatically" as agents for US customs. Is that typically the way it is handled by airfreight from China? Can I see that paperwork ahead of time???

On most shipper's forms, there is a spot to select " Use alternative customs broker , specify ".. otherwise they do it for you and charge you themselves.

with purolator, it's " Prefered Customs Broker " only applicable to ground shipments frm Can to US, anythign else we clear using UPS as our agent.

-0--(** This will be the last time i post in this thread.. and dont bother sending PM's .. i will not reply. .. )

[deVries]

This thread became too cluttered with how to buy from China issues mostly regarding shipping & customs. I moved my A123 Group Buy to the thread linked below to stay focused on its sole purpose. Please continue to post in this thread regarding shipping & customs issues. If you want to buy A123 20Ah cells to USA addresses only, then please post in the following thread at link below:

Group Buy A123 20Ah Cells USA Only!

Thanks.

[johnrobholmes]

I didn't have any duty after the shipment arrived on my order. The only orders I get duty on are above 10 grand.

[Jason27]

Don't do what ping does and label the battery packages as "gifts" to sneak past customs. It's too risky shipping by air.

[thedarlington]

oh man the sphere's playing in the big leagues now!!
what city are these in? i know some guy who was at my school who is now in china and was interested in doing china commerce stuff, i know they setup shipment 1 container all by themselves so im sure this isnt hard for him to do since that had to deal with paperwork, and they sent their stuff from China all the way to texas so i know he's done this before for restaurant or retail supplies so let me get more details, i also have a really good friend working in some engineering firm at LA right now if we needed someone to setup a forward, but like i said this chinese guy's done it already

the cheapest should be containers and truck or train, an aunt actually owns a small trucking company so maybe i can ask how often she goes to LA or to recommend someone and she should be able to tell me something for sure bc she's handling their logistics all day, finally there is a fedex intl service which is supposed to be like a fraction (like a third?) than normal, i know bmsbattery does it as an option (go and play with their site, all other quotes are simply too expensive), as for that lithium ban, its very odd given USPS outsources most stuff to fedex, regardless for a shipment this big i think if we can pull off the logistics (which really are pick up at port LA) that we should save quite a bit of money from the $2500 air (kinda feel like this would be a bigger one as well)

we might wanna check these out>>>
http://www.importgenius.com/ http://www.searates.com/ http://www.uship.com/ http://resources.alibaba.com/forums.htm http://resources.alibaba.com/discussion ... istics.htm

Actual shipping companies (wonder if theyll take us, i see their containers on train all the time)
www.cosco-usa.com/ www.cnshipping.com/en/ www.maerskline.com/appmanager/ www.hapag-lloyd.com/en/home.html

[deVries]

oh man the sphere's playing in the big leagues now!! ...

...regardless for a shipment this big i think if we can pull off the logistics (which really are pick up at port LA) that we should save quite a bit of money from the $2500 air (kinda feel like this would be a bigger one as well)

Because these cells take-up little space & there is not enough demand on ES to do medium to large orders, then we really don't have a need to think in terms of even pallet size or (much less) shared container orders. I don't think it's a good idea to ship cells in high-heat environments either, such as, sea shipping and using "hot" containers in summertime. Anyway, we don't even have "demand" at ES to do a 75 cell order right now.

[mdd0127]

While the amount of knowledge on this forum is spectacular, there are really only maybe 50 regulars that post here a lot.....and from my experience, most of them are broke just like me. It's cool in a way that we have this super focused international forum family but I've had to re learn just how small this family is a few times. If there was enough interest in e-bikes to have an advrider sized forum, you'd be able to get a container group buy together pretty easily but for now, there aren't many of us out here that are both crazy enough and smart enough to be building our own transportation.

[thedarlington]

well of course we won't fill up a container but if you're talking about saving money how would shipping over a pallate by UPS/Fedex be cheaper? this is only for the 1 large shipment to our main guy, from there it gets shipped by 3PL's like ups/fedex to the rest of us, the guys in canada paid $2500 via 3PL and we're aiming for $500, I've read from some retailers that they pay ~$300 from china to a mid US city, chicago, ohio, austin, for single pallates so like plane tickets the package deal is always cheapest

of course someone in California would be awesome but they'd also need test equipment, and time and space. what we need is a "freight consolidator" they do LCL or less than container load, we want to split one up and piggyback a larger order or share costs with other merch. dealers, of course this is common since not every store orders a container's worth of each item, if we're able to pull this off we can repeat again, maybe even continental groupbuys for motors, more batteries, etc, since canada shipping is cheap by truck

motor boxes for example (to imagine the scale of this) fit max 5 to a pallate, and battery packs aint too far from that (7-8 boxes per pallate?) and once a pallate is forklifted on the ship it doesnt move till LA (probably on the same ships either way anyway) --my 48v 12ah pack (6x4x14 inch +chrg) came packed almost like a motor hub (big + heavy) so multiply by 20-40 orders also, many will order larger packages,extras or big ah or voltage, it cost about $140 by EMS from linda (even after i insited on the cheapest slowest ship) remember this isn't a multiple phone or tablet order just cuz the cells are small but large heavy order from china (per buyer's battery package i mean) either way you ship it, its still freight class bc of its size and weight, (and on the same ship) so we may as well not overpay that said worse case is Fedex intl std freight, however their customs brokers do charge a hefty fee so lets try and see if we can find something better and spend more money on the batteries not fees

too bad its 4th of july, but Carotrans looks like a pretty awesome one stop shop worse case fedex intl shipping is always there "a neutral, non-vessel operating common carrier (NVOCC) providing less than-container load and full-container load import and export services"