Got pulled over today

[999zip999]

My work in London. In N.Y. city they are doing a ebike crack down as they ride on and off the sidewalk.

[999zip999]

Oh"s the poor bastard they skined for that helmet. Why do the call it a hell-met ?

[John in CR]

In N.Y. city they are doing a ebike crack down as they ride on and off the sidewalk.

I wonder if it's the express delivery guys running amok that is going to cost the regular ebikers too? No, that wouldn't make sense unless ebikes created a new class of crazies doing deliveries and being a menace to pedestrians. Since it's not a crackdown on pedal bikes too, then the complaining must have originated from elitist pedalists.

Thanks goodness ebikers as a whole are a much more accommodating and go-with-the-flow group. Of course we're the ones with the EV grin, while they have the uphill and headwind pedalist grimace.

John

[The fingers]

Could be anybody, because people (myself included) tend to complain about other people. I like the label though, I will attempt to translate that into Latin. I believe you've discovered a new species!

[Chalo]

Oh"s the poor bastard they skined for that helmet. Why do the call it a hell-met ?

I didn't skin him! He's hanging out with me here right now.

Chalo

[veloman]

You want to have it both ways-- you want to enjoy the considerations and freedoms that come from being safe, slow and efficient, but then you want to drive just like a motor vehicle without meeting the responsibilities of one.

Chalo

This is true for me. But before we go there, I was first (and still am) a spandex pedal cyclist. I work to get cycling infrastructure built in Austin. Have you been to the BAC meetings? On my ebike, I would be happy going cyclist speeds of 18-25mph 100% of the time if it was safe to do so everywhere. (Luckily, those speeds are pretty safe in most of my riding). But yes, there are times when I need speed switch 3 and will go 34mph, but only because it's the safest thing to do.

Sure, I'm not nearly as fast as JohninCR, but I do utilize the privileges of a bicycle, and a motor scooter, when appropriate. I do so safely and with common sense, so I see no reason why there is anything wrong with that. Until roads fully accommodate 20mph bikes, your argument that 'we can't have it both ways' doesn't make sense.

Just one of those hipster ninja fixie riders at night without lights is 100x more dangerous than a reasonable ebiker on a bike path. And there are hundreds of them out every night, blowing red lights and stop signs. But is even that really a problem? In a way, yes, but in the big picture - no, it's not. If it were, police would be seriously cracking down on them.


How many times do I have to say that you enforce the behavior, not the mode? Thankfully, that is pretty much what Austin police do, and they leave me alone when I go 25-30mph up Airport blvd.

[gensem]

We said veloman and that coming from a spandex guy is even better... I wonder whats going on Chalo's head.

[Chalo]

Just one of those hipster ninja fixie riders at night without lights is 100x more dangerous than a reasonable ebiker on a bike path. And there are hundreds of them out every night, blowing red lights and stop signs. But is even that really a problem? In a way, yes, but in the big picture - no, it's not. If it were, police would be seriously cracking down on them.

How many times do I have to say that you enforce the behavior, not the mode? Thankfully, that is pretty much what Austin police do, and they leave me alone when I go 25-30mph up Airport blvd.

My point is, the exact same reasoning applies to normal motorcycles-- technically, they can be ridden safely on bike and ped paths-- but do you want them there? Do you think that gas burning motorcyclists should be able to ignore licensing, registration, and insurance requirements just because their riders would like that?

On what basis do you think e-motorcycles deserve such special treatment? Because what we are talking about here is motorcycles. Even mopeds are limited to 30mph.

Chalo

[gensem]

Chalo is too closed mind to even start with..... i rest my case

[veloman]

Yes you draw the line somewhere. But a fast ebike is really no different than a fast road cyclist. I would draw a line against anything that has an exhaust pipe. Motorcycles weigh 300+lbs usually, and are often loud. An ebike is neither.

When I lived in CT there is a multi use path that I would ride occasionally on my road bike. When I got an open stretch of no one on the path I would do intervals at 30mph on this 10 foot wide path. I wouldn't do that now, but I also didn't ride full bore when it wasn't safe. Now I am even more safety minded.

Have you seen the video of the Netherlands where they have gas scooters using the bike paths? I didn't see any problems. I wouldn't like it as a cyclist, as I don't want to breath exhaust. But the point is that, yes, you could allow small electric motorcycles (JohninCR) to use a bikeway, and it could be done safely. Just put up a speed limit like 15 or 20mph if you are so worried.

I don't think it'd be a bad idea to give motorcyclists a break compared to car drivers when it comes to registration costs and taxes and insurance, depending on the type of machine. Electric should be encouraged to reduce pollution and noise.

I'm not totally against registering my ebike. I would do it if they recognized it and allowed it. It would reduce my anxiety when I do go fast, as I worry about 'being unlawful". But yes, I should also still be able to use the bike paths even if it's registered.

Motorcycles are in a different class as they can go as fast as needed to be safe. It's not a good comparison. Yes, I can go faster than is legal, but I am definitely not a motorcycle when it comes to acceleration and top speed. Not even remotely close. I am very close in performance to a strong road cyclist in performance though.

[Chalo]

Yes you draw the line somewhere. But a fast ebike is really no different than a fast road cyclist.

No. Even an elite cyclist isn't carrying 30mph steady for a half hour, or through stop 'n go traffic. Or uphill. Or with a 300+ pound gross weight.

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened. No pedal cyclist is holding 30 on flat ground with his thoughts wandering and an iPod tweedling in his ears. He's totally focused. The 250 pound guy on a 100 pound bike who isn't even pedaling, just sitting there like a lump? Probably not so much. You see how oblivious car drivers are.

I would draw a line against anything that has an exhaust pipe. Motorcycles weigh 300+lbs usually, and are often loud. An ebike is neither.

What's the energy difference between a 150 pound rider on a 300 pound motorcycle at 40mph, and a 300 pound rider on a 150 pound e-bike at 40mph? Mr. Joule says they are the same.

Buzz a path walker at 30+ with a two-stage RC motor bike and then ask him/her whether you were quiet like a bicycle.

The very fact that we are having this discussion is evidence that people will push the limits of whatever they are allowed. Allowing motorcycles-- any kind of motorcycles-- to enjoy the same privileges and access as bicycles is just a plain bad idea. Only bicycles are bicycles-- designating motorcycles as bicycles is like designating them as peds. It's untrue and it just makes trouble.

Better than making an obvious falsehood into a legal truth for the sake of convenience, would be limiting all city street traffic to a default of 20mph, so that all road users can take the lane safely and relatively quietly.

Chalo

[John in CR]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened. No pedal cyclist is holding 30 on flat ground with his thoughts wandering and an iPod tweedling in his ears. He's totally focused. The 250 pound guy on a 100 pound bike who isn't even pedaling, just sitting there like a lump? Probably not so much. You see how oblivious car drivers are.

Again you demonstrate your elitist cluelessness. Other than that we agree on it being foolish to use IPods or other distractions while operating a vehicle of any type, your post is offensive and hilariously wrong. Come up with an appropriate test and I accept that challenge. Time to put your money where your mouth is. This "lump" was considering a trip to Austin next year anyway, so after you concede just how wrong you are you can show me the best places to go, your treat.

[Cresh]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

[Chalo]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

Forgive me for saying so, but I'm guessing that your own physical limits and those of your buddies (like my own these days) don't involve you establishing 30mph on level ground unless a force 10 gale is chasing you down the road. Someone who can attain and hold 30mph for more than a few seconds is not distressed to the point of distraction by it. The brain is an organ, and moving the implied amount of oxygenated blood through it enhances awareness and slows the perceived passage of time.

Chalo

[John in CR]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

Thank you, of course the physical exertion is a distraction. Even the body position of hard riding works against them. This guy is simply anti-ebikes though he tolerates being pedelecs as long as they're ridden by someone who is a cyclist first. Anything else is a motorcycle with the rider being just a lump of a person. Not only is he is far superior to the lumps, but the world would be a better place if he made the rules and decisions for them.

John

[veloman]

Okay, I for one have spent years pedaling my road bike as fast as possible. That includes 35mph uphill sprints, and being at 30mph for miles, expeling every last drop of energy from my body.

All in all, I am more alert and watching the road on the ebike. but not by a lot.

I said it in another thread - issue is bikes with peds, not bikes with ebikes.

Chalo, lets go riding sometime, seriously. I always want to meet other ebikers anyway.


Bikers need to band together, ride safe, whether they have a small electric motor or just pedals only.

[Chalo]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

Thank you, of course the physical exertion is a distraction. Even the body position of hard riding works against them. This guy is simply anti-ebikes though he tolerates being pedelecs as long as they're ridden by someone who is a cyclist first. Anything else is a motorcycle with the rider being just a lump of a person. Not only is he is far superior to the lumps, but the world would be a better place if he made the rules and decisions for them.

You don't know me. I've built two e-bikes for myself and one for my wife, along with others beginning in 2000. I rode a motorcycle as my primary transportation for over ten years. I've worked as a bicycle mechanic starting in 1992, and a CNC machinist starting in 1995. I have designed and machined all kinds of components for both bicycles and motorcycles. When I observe that a 40mph e-bike is not equal to a bicycle, I know both sides of that equation intimately-- from making them, servicing them, riding them, and living with them.

You want the privileges of a bicycle without the limitations, and the power of a motor vehicle without the responsibilities. Which is fine to want, but unfair to motorcyclists who meet their responsibilities, and unethical to bicyclists who abide by their limitations. The civilized world has stipulated conditions under which an electric vehicle can be considered a bicycle, and that's already an unearned privilege, a bonus. But it's not enough for y'all.

The conditions for operating a motorcycle have been set forth for generations. I didn't make the rules up. They exist already. Y'all just don't want to follow them.

Chalo

[liveforphysics]

You actually have a right to travel as a citizen of the US, and more logically as a human right.
You are permitted to travel anywhere you like that isn't marked as private property at your leisure with your method of transportation choice, provided that transportation choice is privately owned and not causing damage or harms, and you're traveling for a non-commercial purpose.

The only reason cars have licence plates and titles is because it transfers the vehicle to being owned by the state, which removes your freedom to travel because its no longer a private vehicle at that point. It's a dirty trick to infringe on rights, but it's generally easier to simply play along with them than support your right to travel, which requires an un-registered privately owned vehicle to do legally.

If you are not using your vehicle for commercial purposes, and you own your vehicle (meaning you didn't give it to the state in exchange for a certificate of "legal" title (which means the state owns the physical vehicle, you're just responsible for it), then you have a right to travel, and need no registration or insurance or drivers licence etc. You don't have the right to harm anyone or anything with your vehicle, but you do have the right to travel. Over the years there have been a number of folks who actually took the effort to enforce it. Charlie Sprinkle was one of the later ones, and he did it for 35 years, and got a number of state laws repealed in CA and other states that were clear violations of your right to travel.

Some info on Charlie:

http://ticketslayer.com/ts/rt2travel/ts ... page_1.htm


Info on registering your vehicle etc:

" no state can require a driver's license to travel in a private vehicle. As we shall see, driver licenses are only for commercial purposes. Everyone has a right to travel on public roads, yet no one has a right to use public roads to make a profit.

A license plate is proof that the government owns the car. A "Certificate of Title" is not a title. A Certificate of Title is a statement by the owner stating that title exists. Those who have overthrown your government now own "your" car. Unfortunately, you exchanged ownership of the vehicle for the plates that they force you to put on their car. "



Travel within the United States

Constitutional freedom
As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration.[4].
In United States v. Wheeler, 254 U.S. 281 (1920), the Supreme Court reiterated its position that the Constitution did not grant the federal government the power to protect freedom of movement. However, Wheeler had a significant impact in other ways. For many years, the roots of the Constitution's "privileges and immunities" clause had only vaguely been determined.[5] In 1823, the circuit court in Corfield had provided a list of the rights (some fundamental, some not) which the clause could cover.[6][7] The Wheeler court dramatically changed this. It was the first to locate the right to travel in the privileges and immunities clause, providing the right with a specific guarantee of constitutional protection.[8] By reasoning that the clause derived from Article IV of the Articles of Confederation, the decision suggested a narrower set of rights than those enumerated in Corfield, but also more clearly defined those rights as absolutely fundamental.[9]
But the Supreme Court began rejecting Wheeler's reasoning within a few years. Finally, in United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Supreme Court overruled Chief Justice White's conclusion that the federal government could protect the right to travel only against state infringement.[2][3][10]

[liveforphysics]

Also, I bought a nice light road bike, and I've been riding it for exercise and to commute.

For the first time since I was a kid on a bicycle, I'm now blowing stop-signs and stop-lights like crazy, not slowing for much of anything, because it takes so much damn effort to get back up to speed. lol I also don't run off in the grass beside the bike paths or sidewalks when there is pedestrian traffic either, because my damn razer thin tires sink into the wet grass like a plow, or quite prone to sliding out. So I tend to pass folks closer and without slowing now, unlike my ebike where I slow and pass off-path (our paths are narrow). I also tend to look down while pumping the pedals super hard in a tucked position, which has caused me a number of close calls. lol

The braking distance on this bike is total crap too! Even if you could hold the front wheel right on the verge of skidding and verge of stoppie (which I can basically do), the wheel base is so much shorter and front-weight-forward, deathbike can still stop in half the distance or less than this machine.

But I love how easy it is to pedal and I love blazing down steep hills in an aero-tuck on it, and everything just feels like it's going to come apart at once as tiny bumps cause it to struggle to stay in control (at least with my road-bike newb skills on it).

Deathbike stops for stop-signs and intersections (because starting from a stop is so damn fun you're just looking for more reasons to do it) and passes off path (mostly just riding in traffic with cars) and can brake insanely well when needed. It's a pretty nice way to travel. Quieter than my road bikes damn loud clicking freewheel hub too! lol

[Cresh]

Forgive me for saying so, but I'm guessing that your own physical limits and those of your buddies (like my own these days) don't involve you establishing 30mph on level ground unless a force 10 gale is chasing you down the road.

Your guess would be wrong.

I'm not trying to argue with you, because I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have been a pedal biker up until about a year ago when I discovered ebikes and this great forum. I have enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a lot from you. However, I do feel safer on my ebike for the reasons liveforphysics mentions above (not wanting to slow down for stop signs etc...). 30mph is really not that hard on a light road bike, but to maintain it is...

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

[John in CR]

Also, I bought a nice light road bike, and I've been riding it for exercise and to commute.

You have to post a picture decked out in your lycra, because I gotta see it to believe it.

Now, regarding blowing through stoplights and stop signs, sorry It's not a timed competition, so there is no excuse. It's a huge part of what gives motorists their bad attitude toward cyclists, because the appearance is that cyclists believe themselves to be above the law. Stopping and starting is better exercise, so the reason is laziness and nothing else. If pedalists want to enjoy the use of the road effortlessly and cleanly on 2 wheels, then get an ebike.

The exception is when cyclists leave a red light early with traffic clear to get through the intersection and to their bike space ahead of the cars to avoid impeding the progress of cars, so the drivers benefit too, along with increased safety for all. It's unlikely we could communicate this intent to drivers, so there's increased animosity as a consequence which has a negative impact on safety.

John
aka the lump living in an uncivilized part of the world.

[Lessss]

what is this 30mph crap ebikes are limited to 32kph (20 mph)

[veloman]

Cyclists not stopping for stop signs - here is why:

Spandex roadies: the sport is all about maintaining and going as fast as possible. For *some* it is about exercise, but that is not the main reason, at least for me. The essence of road cycling is traveling places quickly, EFFICIENTLY, under your own power. Stopping sucks, a lot. It's not laziness, it's just a matter of wanting the utmost efficiency.

Transportation cyclists: we simply want to get from point A to point B with as little energy expenditure as possible, but also in doing so quickly. The goal is to spend as little effort, but also keep a good speed. Stopping destroys this. We run most stop signs safely, but some riders run all stops and give us a bad rap and are dangerous. (same for above roadies).

Ebiker: the motor takes away most of the reason why I don't want to stop, but I am first a roadie, who LOVES efficiency, so I still do not like stopping. I do complete stops when anyone else is present, but will roll a stop at 5-8mph if no one is around.

[Punx0r]

I have to say, Chalo has a point. It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

I believe most jurisdictions have a similar attitude to mopeds: <50cc, <30mph and circa 2-3HP. They're registered, licenced, insured, safety tested, riders need safety gear etc, but to a lesser extent than cars or larger motorcycles, which reflects their limited performance. If you replace that 49cc engine with an electric motor of equivalent performance then I can't see how you can argue the vehicle isn't more-or-less the same thing.

Regarding freedom of movement/travel - this is also enshrined in the UN basic human rights. As far as I see, that entitles you to walk, bicycle or take public transport wherever you want, subject to local restrictions. I can't see how it entitles anyone to drive a car or fly a jetliner with complete disregard for local laws.

Freedom of speech is awesome, but has obvious (and necessary) limitations. You can't falsely accuse someone of being a rapist, or yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, no matter how much you want to.

[liveforphysics]

It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).