Got pulled over today

[ddk]

in most the usa it's not being punished imo
it's the state recognizing the limitations of an average bicycle and all its' crap parts. (although the crap parts can sometimes be very expensive... they're still crap parts) and providing a means to get as many ebikes on the road as possible... by not being overly restrictive (unlike ur-rup and AS)(and NY NY NY)

if you're building motorcycles build them on a motorcycle frame with motorcycle parts and quit flaunting reality.
...including flaunting laws and regulations that only leads to stiffer laws and regulations.
-oh, and thanks for making my unregulated e-bike into something else that will require a license, registration and insurance.

It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

[John in CR]

A motor is a motor. If they've got essentially the same performance limitations, then it should be treated the same regardless of whether that motor is electric or biologic.

Veloman,
Efficiency??? Call it whatever you want, but It boils down to being too lazy to stop because it takes too much energy to get going again. If it's okay for bikes, then it's okay for everyone else to save gas and time, etc. It's a major point of animosity for drivers making everyone a little less safe, not to mention that it's just as illegal as riding a high powered ebike which Chalo is so adamantly against being unplated. At least I obey the rules of the road. If I stretch the speed limit a bit, it's by no more than is typical. The specific occasion in my OP was a rarity that arose from the traffic situation of the timing required passing 2 cars and a bus. I was already off the throttle and coasting for my turn ahead before getting around the last of them.

John

[Punx0r]

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

(Legal) Ebikes are not punished at all. They are one of the few forms of motorised transport that are not regulated. Apart from mobility scooters and power wheelchairs, I can think of no other example.

The necessity of regulation becomes obvious if you extrapolate a problem to the masses. You've got hundreds of 10-year old kids in every town riding 50mph electric motorbikes on the pavement and mowing down old ladies. It's ok though, because they're saving the planet.

Or, some spoilt rich-kid gets given a Tesla roadster, he's got no licence or insurance and wipes out a bus stop full of nuns.

If cars didn't need to wear plates, a lot of people would drive like complete cocks, considering themselves unaccountable. If some drunk clown killed your kid outside the school doing 80mph I doubt you'd be concerned about his "right" not to register his car?

I am a strong advocate of individual freedom and responsibility, but there must be limits. I love guns, but I wouldn't like to see them on open, unrestricted sale to any idiot.

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

[fizzit]

(Legal) Ebikes are not punished at all. They are one of the few forms of motorised transport that are not regulated. Apart from mobility scooters and power wheelchairs, I can think of no other example.

Electric bicycles are regulated. You are not correct. In my state you are not allowed to ride an electric bicycle faster than 20mph or with a motor power of over 1000W. You also must be at least 16 years old. Just because a vehicle does not have a license does not mean that you aren't morally or legally accountable.

[Punx0r]

Fair enough - if there's an age restriction then it's regulated.

I specifically said legal ebikes to because anything over the speed/power restrictions is not legally an ebike (an assisted bicycle).

[veloman]

Veloman,
Efficiency??? Call it whatever you want, but It boils down to being too lazy to stop because it takes too much energy to get going again. If it's okay for bikes, then it's okay for everyone else to save gas and time, etc. It's a major point of animosity for drivers making everyone a little less safe, not to mention that it's just as illegal as riding a high powered ebike which Chalo is so adamantly against being unplated. At least I obey the rules of the road. If I stretch the speed limit a bit, it's by no more than is typical. The specific occasion in my OP was a rarity that arose from the traffic situation of the timing required passing 2 cars and a bus. I was already off the throttle and coasting for my turn ahead before getting around the last of them.

John

No argument there, I agree with you. I didn't mean to say it's okay for road bikes to run stop signs, just explaining why. I know I'm more likely to hit a biker near campus here than a car since most of them don't stop for stop signs or have lights.

[ZOMGVTEK]

I just passed a 'bicycle cop' on my bike, in a park, without a helmet, at over 40. Whoops.

It's probably OK, since i fake pedaled and was off the throttle. It's just a really odd looking bike, that looks really heavy, and I'm one hell of a cyclist.

[liveforphysics]

If some drunk clown killed your kid outside the school doing 80mph I doubt you'd be concerned about his "right" not to register his car?

Help me understand how a slip of paper in his glove box or some stamped sheet metal on the back of the car being present or not has any effect on someone hitting my kid with his car?

What you need to realize, is drops of ink arranged on paper in configurations pleasing to the fear-based folks has no effect on human actions. Every human action is the choice of the human performing the action, and nothing more or less.

Likewise, if someone is choosing to perform behavior that hurts other folks, no amount of permits and tags and bits of stamped sheet metal has any effect on the harms done.

I am a strong advocate of individual freedom and responsibility, but there must be limits. I love guns, but I wouldn't like to see them on open, unrestricted sale to any idiot.

The way it is now, any idiot can buy any gun they like, even full auto stuff, and its sold with no waiting period or registration etc. You can be deranged on PCP and buy full auto weapons with the current system. This is because once again, no configuration of dots of ink on paper in a law book has any effect on the actions of humans, which are always determined by the choices that human makes.

What do those droplets of ink arranged cause? They cause folks who agree to try to live by those guidelines (NOBODY lives without breaking "laws" and hundreds to thousands a year, the average American commits enough crimes to be imprisoned for life every year, but of course it doesn't matter because laws obviously aren't real things, they are just imaginary human constructs that sometimes people try to enforce if they happen to be in the right place at the right time with the proper means) to not be able to purchase various types of weapons, and to be required to wait 2 weeks or whatever before buying, and have to register them etc etc. The folks who aren't the problem in the first place get restricted options and need to register etc, yet the folks who are willing to buy on the expansive black market will of course always be unrestricted.

It's kinda like drug laws. Boy that works! Arrange some dots of ink in a book, and poof! Drugs vanished from existence. Or... maybe they just get to be of more sketchy quality and more hazard causing, and available to anyone at any age with cash... Also creates and support a massive organized crime blackmarket... You don't see a carrot and potato black market, you wouldn't see a drug black market either if the harm causing law vanished. (what happened to the alcohol black market when they made it legal?)

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

Justin of ebikes.ca did an awesome research paper on this very topic. Walking consumes drastically more energy per mile than riding a pedal bike, and a human body pumping pedals consumes radically more energy in sourcing that energy from food than an electric bike recharging from an outlet. Depending on diet and types of food etc, well over an order of magnitude. Obviously there are exceptions, if you only ate foods you foraged for in the wild for your energy, and the electricity came from a dirty source, you could have lower impact as a human pedaling than an ebike, but average to average (what his paper covers), the human pedaling was a drastically greater polluter than the human plugging in an ebike and riding. Either way, the energy used is so low, and environmental impact vs other transportation options is so low with either choice, pedal or ebike, the difference is like an error bar margin difference compared to anytime you get someone out of a car/truck/suv and onto a bicycle. (you could say on foot as well, but it's just more wasted energy and drastically less utilarian function, as most folks aren't going to walk 15miles to work and back daily etc).







Bottom line, do the right thing. (very seldom does this involve following many of the laws man creates)

[Chalo]

Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

I expect his thinking is that the food you have to eat has a bigger environmental footprint than the coal for the power plant. But that presumes that the motorist isn't eating just about as much (which he likely is). And it's not focusing broadly enough, if you want to get as obtuse as that in pursuit of externalities.

How about the environmental footprint of all the medical intervention you'll need because you ruined your health motoring, when you could have been walking or pedaling? The carbon emissions of the extra air conditioning you use because you don't exercise outdoors and get acclimated? And of course there is the horrifying nightmare of battery materials, manufacturing, and disposal, which are so much nastier than just putting juice in the batteries that it's disingenuous not to include them.

E-bikes and other light EVs are relatively green and low-impact, but they are still motor vehicles. Trying to make them somehow "more specialer" than other motor vehicles of similar size, speed, and payload is grasping at straws.

Chalo

[Arlo1]

The problem there is once again a cop thinking that because it's styled like a scooter that it's not a bicycle. Nothing wrong with scooter styled ebikes themselves, they work great to suit folks transportation needs.

Cop business notwithstanding, and irrespective of how right or wrong they are, those scooters are not bicycles. Not any more than a washing machine with pedals sticking out the sides is a bicycle.

Chalo

There is MANY MANY different shapes and sizes dude. Most of them are to small/cheep to waste time with Licenceing. Some times you need to take a step back and think maybe a free form of travel is not so bad.

[Chalo]

The problem there is once again a cop thinking that because it's styled like a scooter that it's not a bicycle. Nothing wrong with scooter styled ebikes themselves, they work great to suit folks transportation needs.

Cop business notwithstanding, and irrespective of how right or wrong they are, those scooters are not bicycles. Not any more than a washing machine with pedals sticking out the sides is a bicycle.

There is MANY MANY different shapes and sizes dude. Most of them are to small/cheep to waste time with Licenceing. Some times you need to take a step back and think maybe a free form of travel is not so bad.

Fine, get a "free form" traffic code classification, then, for things that aren't bicycles. Leave real bikes alone; they have a difficult enough situation to fit into even without folks pretending their motor vehicles are bicycles.

[Arlo1]

It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

Yup you know we realy should be getting licences for our shoes so we can walk too!

[Arlo1]

Fine, get a "free form" traffic code classification, then, for things that aren't bicycles. Leave real bikes alone; they have a difficult enough situation to fit into even without folks pretending their motor vehicles are bicycles.

No everytime paper work is involved the government takes money!


WHY ARE YOU SO AGAINST FREEDOME! Do you like being a slave?

[liveforphysics]

Should all bicycles that aren't like this be tossed? This was the original conventional bicycle design. Should later double-diamond frames be considered to be new-fangled non-bicycles that shouldn't exist?




Should this bicycle quit disguising itself as a luggage rack? Should it not exist because it's got lots of cargo compartments bulging off of it?



What if you streamlined the luggage compartments to fit snugly with the frame to improve the aerodynamics, and incorporated a headlight/brake light? Then does it not deserve to exist?

Motor = "a person or thing that imparts motion, especially a contrivance, as a steam engine, that receives and modifies energy from some natural source in order to utilize it in driving machinery."

When a human is pumping their legs to react ATP with O2 to cause muscle tissue to contract and turn a pedal crank, they are a motor powering a cycle, the combo makes a motor-vehicle. It's just one that requires input energy (food) that requires much more energy to produce, and burns that energy much less efficiently than an electric motor doing the same job.

[sn0wchyld]

Should all bicycles that aren't like this be tossed? This was the original conventional bicycle design. Should later double-diamond frames be considered to be new-fangled non-bicycles that shouldn't exist?




Should this bicycle quit disguising itself as a luggage rack? Should it not exist because it's got lots of cargo compartments bulging off of it?



What if you streamlined the luggage compartments to fit snugly with the frame to improve the aerodynamics, and incorporated a headlight/brake light? Then does it not deserve to exist?

Motor = "a person or thing that imparts motion, especially a contrivance, as a steam engine, that receives and modifies energy from some natural source in order to utilize it in driving machinery."

When a human is pumping their legs to react ATP with O2 to cause muscle tissue to contract and turn a pedal crank, they are a motor powering a cycle, the combo makes a motor-vehicle. It's just one that requires input energy (food) that requires much more energy to produce, and burns that energy much less efficiently than an electric motor doing the same job.

I'd also add, extracts energy from its food far less efficiently than 'batteries' or whatever comparable to our digestive system too.

[Sancho's Horse]

There, we are a collection of little molecular machines designed to control chemical spatial relationships to give electromechanical advantages to perform useful work.

The law works exactly the same. A perfect machine.
It makes us civilized, less Ape-like. Better "languaging."

Laws exist primarily for two reasons: to protect the common good, and to tax.
Saying that ebikes should be regulated to protect the common good seems reasonable. Do the laws protect the common good? If you are on an ebike doing 20mph down a narrow shared pathway, this is legal, but certainly seems dangerous to a pedestrian. If you are doing 20 mph on a road where all other traffic is doing 30 mph, this is legal, but certainly seems dangerous to ebiker, and cars alike. So, I think the argument that the laws protect the common good is flawed. If you want to protect pedestrians, give them parts of pathways with stuff integrated in the path rendering it uncomfortable for bikes/ebikes, and create rules for paths. If you want to protect cars/ebikers let them go road speeds.

If you say ebikes should be regulated as a tax, then the tax should be proportional to the level at which their existence taxes society. This proportionality applies to big trucks, motorcycles, cigarrettes (just not brokers of credit default swaps, etc.). So, do ebikes stand on special ground (apart from motorcycles)? Clearly, environmentally they are better, effects on roads...better, noise...better, danger as an object... better than motorcycle, slightly worse than bike. So, do they deserve to get taxed at the level of bikes?

The way laws are written, fostering a perception of ebikes being problematic for both path and road conditions... is a tax, but it is not a tax on an individual, it is a tax on an entire industry. An industry which could do great good for the problems we are facing. No, if they try to add any extra individual tax above and beyond this industry tax, and you go along with it, historically speaking, you are an uncivilized ape.

[John in CR]

.... Leave real bikes alone; they have a difficult enough situation to fit into even without folks pretending their motor vehicles are bicycles.

Chalo,

You've got it ass-backwards. You and your types need to leave ebikes alone and stop pretending that your bicycles are enough different from ebikes capable of similar performance that they warrant different treatment. It's cars that are the enemy, not ebikes, and if you're truly a friend to this planet, then you should do everything you can to promote ebikes regardless of the growing pains inevitable with their growing popularity. We have a unique opportunity to make a fundamental change in how people move, and suppressing ebikes in any manner will lessen that change for the good. That's because if we wait too long, then people will transition directly from gas cars to large, heavy and wasteful electric cars, which is really no change at all in terms of resource usage. Anyone who gets out of a car onto an ebike will be an ebiker for life whether they own an electric car in the future or not. Some will stick with ebikes and other ultralight EV's and go carless, and it's likely that many households that would otherwise have multiple cars and later e-cars will have only one with multiple ebikes fulfilling the much of their transportation needs.

Drop the free energy argument for bicycles, because it's simply disingenuous, as is trying to insinuate that you're an ebiker just because you owned a pair 12 years ago. You're smart enough to know the argument to be incorrect anyway, and that it's on the same level as over-unity kookery.

Ebikers respect cyclists and their choices (other than maybe too much time spent on car racks), but that form of transportation isn't practical for the masses. Follow the lead of the Netherlands, the most bike-centric country on the planet. They have embraced ebikes which now exceed bicycle sale, because they realize it's an incredibly practical form of transportation that enhances their cycling culture.

Not only are pedalists who have the elitist superior attitude like you the biggest source of animosity toward ebikers, but it's the worst and most vocal of you who slowed the revolution the most. You did so by helping craft legislation to make rules for "legal" ebikes so restrictive that they aren't very practical as transportation, and they lack broad appeal.

The bottom line is that you and your kind need to "LEAVE EBIKES ALONE".

John

[John in CR]

...Laws exist primarily for two reasons: to protect the common good, and to tax.
Saying that ebikes should be regulated to protect the common good seems reasonable. Do the laws protect the common good? If you are on an ebike doing 20mph down a narrow shared pathway, this is legal, but certainly seems dangerous to a pedestrian. If you are doing 20 mph on a road where all other traffic is doing 30 mph, this is legal, but certainly seems dangerous to ebiker, and cars alike. So, I think the argument that the laws protect the common good is flawed. If you want to protect pedestrians, give them parts of pathways with stuff integrated in the path rendering it uncomfortable for bikes/ebikes, and create rules for paths. If you want to protect cars/ebikers let them go road speeds.

If you say ebikes should be regulated as a tax, then the tax should be proportional to the level at which their existence taxes society. This proportionality applies to big trucks, motorcycles, cigarrettes (just not brokers of credit default swaps, etc.). So, do ebikes stand on special ground (apart from motorcycles)? Clearly, environmentally they are better, effects on roads...better, noise...better, danger as an object... better than motorcycle, slightly worse than bike. So, do they deserve to get taxed at the level of bikes?

The way laws are written, fostering a perception of ebikes being problematic for both path and road conditions... is a tax, but it is not a tax on an individual, it is a tax on an entire industry. An industry which could do great good for the problems we are facing. No, if they try to add any extra individual tax above and beyond this industry tax, and you go along with it, historically speaking, you are an uncivilized ape.

Excellent points Sancho's Horse, and we have guys like Chalo to thank for those laws.

[Chalo]

Not only are pedalists who have the elitist superior attitude like you the biggest source of animosity toward ebikers, but it's the worst and most vocal of you who slowed the revolution the most. You did so by helping craft legislation to make rules for "legal" ebikes so restrictive that they aren't very practical as transportation, and they lack broad appeal.

If you knew anything about the history of e-bikes, you'd know that the CPSC specifications were agreed upon by the manufacturers of that time, because their products fit the formula and those performance levels were uncontroversial. So blame ZAP if your like, but bicyclists at that time didn't have much notion about e-bikes one way or another.

"So restrictive" is faster than the real world speeds of bikes that millions of us use every day for transportation. We don't think it's too restrictive, or impractical. We're out here by the millions because bicycles are convenient and practical, even in a motor vehicle centered system. E-bikes are languishing in the doldrums, with no apparent signs of the revolution you refer to-- not because cyclists speak out against them, but because batteries still kind of suck for the job. There's no getting around it. There is more energy in my propane plumbing torch's 14oz cylinder than in 50 pounds of expensive, temperamental lithium polymer-- and it costs $3.

Reasonable people don't want motorcycles on our bike lanes or paths. Take the street, where motorcycles belong. And get plated and insured, like all motorcycles are required to be. Or else ride within the envelope of a real bicyclist and enjoy your unearned free pass. If you behave yourselves, you might still be tolerated on the streets when better batteries show up, and in that case there really could be the makings of some kind of revolution. I bet weenies will still prefer cars, though, and cars can carry a thousand pounds of whatever battery works best at the moment. E-bikes, even more than bicycles, will be seen as the poor person's alternative to a car (mostly because regular bicycles are not regarded by drivers as a viable alternative to a car).

My wife let her car go, and I let my motorcycle go. But I still have an e-bike, an X5305 setup. I just haven't ridden it much since moving back to a city with modest hills and good weather, where my trip distances are short. So I'm in the midst of switching it over to a smaller bike for my wife, and sorting out the usual technical hassles. We'll see how it goes. If she gets on with it, I may try building a crank drive for myself.

Chalo

[Arlo1]

So you think the batteries we have will not work for an E-bike lol Dude ~$300 of lipo made my brothers BMX have over 50km range at 35-45km/h and 30 km range at 75 km/h! I road it to work down the side of the highway at 75km/h. Yup that is illegal here and it sucks because if I ever loose my licence I can not legally ride a ebike to work because the highway says no vehicles under 70 km/h... But yet I'm not allowed to go that fast legally on a e-bike.... So... And oh yeah just move or get a job closer lol sure that's a real option.

Truth is Ebikes are great now! And as better batteries are developed they will get better. Now you can brag all you want about the propane thing but it started as a oilfield by product they used to just burn off in Alberta when pulling oil out of the ground then they realized they can sell it for even more money. There is still gasses they burn off to get rid of and it makes me sick to drive thought alberta and see the huge flare stacks going they could easily generate electricity with that but nope wont make them enough money.

But at the end of the day Chalo I don't understand why you are being a troll towards any fun ebike story or story with some fun involved. If I was limited the way the government wanted me to be and never did a wheelie or went over the speed limit or took a corner with some speed etc. Then I would put a bullet in my head because Hitler already proved how well total control of people works!

[Chalo]

So you think the batteries we have will not work for an E-bike lol Dude ~$300 of lipo made my brothers BMX have over 50km range at 35-45km/h and 30 km range at 75 km/h!

I didn't say they don't work, I said they kind of suck. Lipo batteries may have good performance by battery standards, but they require a lot of monitoring and protection and fooling around with them. Batteries that don't impose another hobby on their users have much lower performance. Either way, they are most of what's holding e-bikes back from the big time. Otherwise, why wouldn't e-bikes be as popular as regular bicycles for ordinary transportation?

In Chinese cities where suckiness is taken for granted and e-bikes are all over the place, they use SLAs. I've observed several folks on this forum saying that if SLA was their only battery choice, they'd give up e-biking. Yet that's the standard in the only society that has adopted e-bikes generally.

Chalo

[veloman]

I don't think batteries are holding ebikes back anymore. Surely they are holding back larger ev's like cars and motorcycles. With current speed and power limitations on ebikes, a basic 36v 15ah ping is all the average ebiker would need. Weight is fine, integrating it is often a challenge, but off the shelf ebikes handle that fine. Price - well that is holding ebikes back a fair bit, but still not the #1 reason. Most of all, most people don't even know of ebikes. But after you get over that hurdle the next barrier is the culture, at least in our city of Austin. Cycling is popular here because people want to be fit and all that. Transportation cycling here isn't all that big outside of the eastern side due to lacking infrastructure. THAT is what is holding back ebikes (and normal bikes). It's mostly about infrastructure. Most people don't want to be near auto traffic while on a bike, especially outside of the bike-common areas where traffic isn't very courteous and is fast. Simply put, outside of slow downtown streets and a few sparse separated bike facilities, the transportation grid barely gives much attention to bikes. Bike lanes have sprung up considerably, but they won't get the majority of people on bikes who want to bike.

The city realizes this now, and has numerous separated bikeway/lane projects coming up over the next 5 years. It is critical that ebikes remain legal to ride on these new facilities. Take for example the proposed Greenbelt bridge next to Mopac. There was a presentation by the Neighborhood Connectivity Division of Public Works (all whom know me) today at Town Lake under Mopac, for this bridge project. This will connect the entire SW area of Austin to downtown. Right now it's a huge barrier. If one day ebikes aren't allowed on it, that would be a huge blow to their utility.

[Punx0r]

Chalo is spot on.

RC lipo is not even remotely marketable as a commercial ebike battery. Good quality lifepo4 is, but a low-powered ebike pack costs more than than a reasonable used car.

A commercial ebike that isn't complete shite costs, what? $2000? You can buy a very nice used car for that.

Comparing apples and oranges? Maybe.

I'd point out I'm absolutely not a militant cyclist. I always stop for red lights and obey the rules of the road the same as if I was driving a car.

Liveforphysics, I'll address the points you raised in a later post - I haven't the time right now (it's beer o'clock)!

[ddk]

about ebike/trike acceptance,
the only thing really holding back ebikes in the usa is piss-poor marketing and lack of outlets.

@Punx0r- I'd also like to know where I can purchase a reasonable used car for 2k dollars?
Not where I lives and keep my stuffs Here you get a complete junker for 2k

maybe 2k pounds? (can't find the funny monetary pound key on my keyboard)

[John in CR]

It's not worth even addressing its points any more. Each is without merit, and just like every troll of this type it's response is to change the subject. It's my fault. I should have recognized the troll sooner, and I definitely should have refrained from feeding it. In my defense I hang out exclusively at ES as far as online hanging goes, and trolls are so few and far between on ES that I let my guard completely down.

John