DiamondBack, Cyclone 650watts and Dewalt A123 packs

[kfong]

4/20/2010 I've changed the original title to reflect the actual bike, the Motobecan has a thread of it's own.

I've been lurking here for 2 months and have decided on my ebike. Motobecan 08 Fantom or 09 700DS, cyclone 650watts and A123 cells. I have collected the A123 Cells, over 40 to date. Will order the Cyclone system and bike later this week. Just wanted to get some input on my choices, good or bad before I pull the trigger. I intend to use this as a mountain bike and a commuter bike. I want to keep it light for the trails. So the A123's are my first choice in batteries. I will probabaly be doing my own BMS system for the batteries. I can do any CNC work if needed to get the system working. Shooting for a decent mountain bike for the trails and having it as a useful commuter bike to boot!

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[etard]

You cant beat the price of those Motobecanes, I just picked one up for cheap!! Im doing a front hub wilderness energy (shoulda done more research) set up with sla. Since you do cnc, I would make my own rack and seatpost triangulated and notched in the frame so that the rack doesn't slide side to side. Unless you are going stealth, in which case are you gonna mount the battery in the frame? Let me know, I am toying with several setups.

[D-Man]

Yeah, they get good reviews. You know how much the bike weighs before conversion etard?

[kfong]

They are roughly around 34lbs I believe, not the lightest. The front fork is very heavy. So far I'm moving towards the Fantom. I think it's a better frame. I intend to put the batteries in the triangle part of the frame to keep the CG low, or even on the bottom tube. I will post updates as I move along. Never dealt with the company before and worried about damages in transit. The value for what you get looks good. Any one had any bad experiences with the company? I don't like the fact that they don't have a normal phone order desk. IBEX was another company for the value that I was looking at but they don't have much of a selection this time of year.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[andys]

A lot of folks have bought bikes from Bikes direct, and I have heard good feedback on that seller.

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/xc-suspen ... 26crx.aspx

http://www.mtbr.com/cat/bikes/xc-suspen ... 26crx.aspx

[kfong]

Thanks for the link, now on which bike to decide I just pulled the trigger on the cyclone 650watt setup from
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm. I ordered the regular kit. http://www.cyclone-usa.com/ did not carry the 650watt version. The reason I went this route was because I wanted an external controller. This gives me more choices on voltages and use of other controllers if needed. From what I gather 500watts and above is quite adequate. I did not go to the higher 1000watt version because I wanted to keep the weight down. More watts require more batteries, and I plane to do some pedalling Hopefully the delivery won't take forever.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

I went to 3 different bike shops yesterday to see if I could find a better frame for what I want to do and to get a physical idea of how to mount the motor. What I didn't realize is the pivot points on rear suspension bikes might pose a problem with the Cyclone setup. I might need to move the motor to a different area. I've seen some put them forward on the bottom bar, but they end up with a different setup all together, that I'm not familar with. This new configuration has it turning the main sprocket, but it seems to loose out on gear selection. Has anyone been successful with a ebike conversion of the 700DS or Fantom. I need to verify that this can be done before I move on. I still would prefer to use these two bike choices since they seem to be a good value. I tried to do a search on this forum but I don't seem to have any luck finding such bikes being converted. What looks more doable is to have a fixed rear suspension and a seat post with a spring. This isn't my ideal setup.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[dnmun]

i think they even have a picture on the cyclone website showing how the mountain bikes with rear suspension is a no-no for the cyclone. there was cyclone kit that just sold on ebay for $280. i thought that was cheap for 500W, but if you go to 48V will you get the full 1000W? the 1000W motor is different and much bigger too. or is this a cyclone clone?http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=380059930781&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=025

[kfong]

I ordered mine from here, http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm It is the 650watt version. I'll post pictures of it when it arrives. They have a 1000watt version as well, but that motor is bigger than I want. If there is space, I don't see why it won't work on a full suspension. I'm hoping someone has done this. I don't want to speed a $1000 on a bike and find out it's not possible. The drawback of ordering the bike online is I don't have a way to verify the install. Seeing that it would not work on many of the full suspension bikes at the shops I visited has put a damper on things. Both Motobecane bikes have rear suspension lockout which may solve the problem.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[JB_EB]

Kin,

I based my e-bike on a Cyclone 360W motor and a full-suspension MTB from this site:

http://www.learsport.com.au/view_produc ... ct=BW3240V

The BW3240 has the pivot point in front of the bottom bracket so the chain length does not change as the rear suspension compresses. I replaced the original Kenda knobbly tires with Specialised Armadillo tyres to reduce running resistance and also to get the required clearance for the Cyclone motor.
While you may not be able to buy this specific bike, you will probably find a similar rear suspension setup if you keep searching.
FYI, I also bought a Shimano Nexus premium 8-speed hub gear and had that spoked into the rear wheel. In my opinion, this gives the ideal e-bike setup. The smaller motor is quite efficient and doesn't need huge batteries. The 8-speed hub gear gives a huge range so the small motor is adequate for both steep hills and faster flat sections. The hub gear can also be changed when the bike is stopped.
Originally, I had a 24V, 10AH LiCo battery that fitted in a slid-in mount in the centre of the frame (inside the semi-circular section). I am now working on a new battery mount for a 26V, 11.5AH a123 battery pack. I am tending towards a saddle-bag style double box with half the batteries on each side of the frame just in front of the seat post.
I found Cyclone Taiwan very helpful and easy to deal with.

BTW, if your setup includes the Cyclone pedals with the built-in freewheel, try to get them to send you the special tool to dismantle the freewheel. My first freewheel only lasted a year. However, when I bought a replacement, I also bought the removing tool and can now regularly dismantle, clean and repack the freewheel with good quality car wheel-bearing grease.

JohnB

[kfong]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply, your bike is very similar to the Motobecan 700DS. I sent a message to the company to have them measure the distance needed to mount the motor. This gives me hope. I really want a full suspension setup and not a seat post on a spring. I wish I had ordered the tools, are they standard? I figure I could pick them up locally. Can you post a picture of your setup, might be useful for others following this thread. I plan to put the batteries in the frame, the Fantom has more room in this area, and the motor mount section looks the same. Could you explain more about stopping the bike to change the hub gear, can't this be done while in motion?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

Not sure how I should take this. This is the reply from the tech support people from Motobecane. I would of expected a more detail response, like the actual distance measured?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will not work, just pedal it.
TH


Can you verify if the fantom has the spacing I need to put an electric motor. See pictures. I need 82mm of space.

Regards,

Kin

[JB_EB]

Hi Kin,

Re the Freewheel remover. Have a look at this link to the Cyclone Taiwan site.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order.htm
Just to the left of the Cycle Computer, there are a few tools, including the remover in the middle. It is a special tool needed to remove the freewheel bearing.

Re changing gears with the Hub Gear - As you know, a deraileur gear needs to be moving so the chain can climb up or down the cogs. This means that if you have to stop suddenly in a high gear, it is hard to start off again. With the Hub gear, you can change gears whether the bike is moving or stopped.

I'll try to post some pics of the bike later. I had to remove the old battery mount as the LiCo battery died. Currently I have a temporary setup with the new a123 battery pack in the backpack strapped to the rack.

JohnB

[kfong]

Hi John,

I didn't realize it until I reread your post that you bought an internal gear setup that resides in the hub. This sounds like a good solution. I was looking at the Divinci hub earlier but read it has friction losses, so I’m going back to gears. I'm not that knowledgeable about bikes, but I’m learning fast. I came across this bike forum from a link in the Rcgroups forum and was surprised at the current state of ebikes. I now have to have one and it gives me a great reason to get back into mountain biking. I’ve always hated the hill climbs but loved everything else about the sport.

Yes, please post pictures of your setup. It will help.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

More terse answers from bikesdirect tech support. Not very friendly it seems. Must not be an ebike enthusiast You would think they would be more helpful if it would mean a sale, and it would open up more of a market for their bikes. Perhaps he was more concered about the warranty issues?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not shorter it is a matter of chain growth on a DS frame and there is a cross member that will interfere with mounting it. You would also void the warranty. JUST PEDAL!
TH

Why is the distance smaller than 82mm?

Regards,

Kin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[kfong]

I really like this setup. I like is how the motor in front of the freewheel. http://www.elationebikes.com.au/
This keeps the motor higher up. Going over logs won't be as much of a concern since I have bottomed the main sprocket in the past. Not sure how I would implement this. It seems like it would allow me to keep the original gear set as well. Has anyone done this? What parts would be needed, I can do some of the machining if necessary. Elation does not sell the parts, just the full kits and only to Australians, limited power setup so it's not an option.

From just studying the photos, it seems like I need a freewheel setup that works inline with all the front gears and an extra main sprocket for the motor that is spaced to allow a second chain to run along side the first. I can machine the spacer, but not sure where to get the freewheel setup since I don't think the one supplied by cyclone would work like this. Another benifit is it would also allow me to easily remove everything if I need to use it as a regular mountain bike while riding with friends, and not drag around the extra wieght.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Hi Kin,

I have done what you described above. Here is a picture:



The freewheeling cranks and front chain ring are an off the shelf item which I modified to add a 4th chain ring to allow the cyclone motor to drive it. That item is described here:
http://www.hostelshoppe.com/atp_archive ... ctions.pdf

I'm not sure how easy it would be to find that item now. I went into a bikeshop and had them order it off of a catalog. I'll have to search me email to find out the name of it, but I know just about any bike shop buys parts from this catalog. You might be able to buy the part directly online.

It works great, but the freewheel starts to breakdown after awhile. It just uses a standard BMX freewheel which is easily replaced. I'm thinking I need to try a higher end free wheel like http://www.whiteind.com/singlespeedgear ... heels.html.

Some people on this board have build similar setups such as the IPS unit using this freewheel and have reported good results.

[kfong]

Thanks StinkyGoalieGuy,

The links really helped, and your picture of your setup makes a lot of sense to me now. I'm pretty sure I will go this route but will probably have the motor in front of the lower tube since I want my batteries in the area you have your motor. I like the fact that you can use the existing gears. I'll have to come up with a quick disconnect for the motor and battery so I can remove it if I want.

Are these what you are refering to? How do I use them? Do they just replace a component in the crank that looks similar thus making it a freewheel? From the PDF link it looks that way. Pricey stuff, but if I don't have to replace them then I think it would be worth getting. The 18t trails sounds like the one to get, not sure I follow what 18t stands for. More bike stuff I need to learn about.

ENO Freewheels http://www.whiteind.com/suggestedretailprice.html
16t - 22t $ 90.00
18t trials $100.00
DOS ENO 16/18t or 17/19t $100.00

How did you determine the size of your front chain ring and what is the max speed you get without pedalling.

I now have 50+ A123 cells, still waiting on my cyclone motor to arrive.
Going with the Fantom full suspension, but want to see what the 09 will be like. They say it's suppose to show up anyday now, so I been checking bikesdirect website every so often.

In the mean time I need to start focusing on getting the packs ready, and create a BMS board.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

I couldn't wait any longer. I just ordered the Motobecane 2008 Fantom Comp DS $999.95. It pretty much has everything I'm looking for in a mountain bike. Hopefully the 2009 version isn't much better. I will be able to ride it before the weather gets too cold. http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/mot ... p_ds08.htm

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Hi Kin,

The cranks already have a freewheel in them. It's just that the quality of the one that is included in it is not very good. I'm suggesting that you replace the one that is included with the one from white industries. The 18 T stands for 18 teeth. I think only the 16 tooth one will fit, so that trials one will not work for you. You'll need a 16T one. I chose my chain rings in order to maximize my hill climbing ability. But you can calculate the gear ratios to figure out what you want. I'm getting about 31MPH without pedalling on the biggest gear.

[Pete]

i think they even have a picture on the cyclone website showing how the mountain bikes with rear suspension is a no-no for the cyclone. there was cyclone kit that just sold on ebay for $280. i thought that was cheap for 500W, but if you go to 48V will you get the full 1000W?

No.
You will let the smoke out of the integrated speed controller. About the best option for the planetary gearbox Cyclones is the 650w. Cyclone rate the external controller to 36v. The fets are rated to 60v, so you can't quite squeeze 48v safely. No idea if you can use a hubmotor controller, the Cyclone spins up to 3600 rpm.

I wouldn't recommend pushing a 650w Cyclone much harder though. When running at it's efficent rpm the motor case gets quite warm. If you do long periods at max power and low rpm the case gets hot to the point of being uncomfortable to touch due to running well outside of it's efficency curve.

[JB_EB]

Kin, I think the problem is that if the rear suspension pivot point is between the bottom bracket and wheel axle, as the suspension moves, the chain length effectively changes. This is usually taken up by the deraileur tension spring. This would be a major issue with the Cyclone. The guy probably doesn't understand why you want the dimensions.
I guess you should check out a few of the local bicycle shops and supplier catalogues to establish which Dual Suspension bikes have the required rear suspension geometry, than ask specific questions on the clearance you need. As I said earlier, I had to swap out the big knobbly MTB tyres and fit road tyres to get enough clearance to fit the motor.
I didn't get time to take any pics over the weekend. I'll try later in the week.

JohnB

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

The rear suspension won't be an issue if you drive the front chain rings directly like in my setup. If you use the stock setup, then yes, you could have a problem.

[kfong]

Thanks for all the input guys, I caught a bad flu Friday and have been sick the whole weekend. Finally better today. Waiting on the bike, will post pictures of it when it arrives and my progress. Motor has not arrived either.

Got an update, bike should arrive Thurs. Woohoo!

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

How good are these freewheels? They have the shimano brand name. Inexpensive, only $15

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.asp ... ='2335-16'

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/