DiamondBack, Cyclone 650watts and Dewalt A123 packs

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

I've used both shimano and dicta freewheels on my front freewheeling chain ring setup, and neither lasted very long. They weren't really meant to be used in this manner with the type of side loads you end up inducing on them. I'm not sure the white industries will be able to handle it either, but feedback from others on here make them sound fairly robust. It's $15 compared to $80 for the white industries. So will the white industries last 5.3 times as long as the shimano? Who knows? All I know is I have to redesign my system if I need to replace the freewheel after every 20-25 miles. Also the white industries one has a replaceable sealed cartridge bearing, but I don't know how much those cost.

[kfong]

That's good to know 20-25 miles isn't a very useful. I try the White once my Cylone freewheel fails. Where do you get them for $80?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Pricepoint.com usually has them for $80 + shipping.

[kfong]

Good find on the White, what about the freewheeling cranks are those falling apart just as fast. Are there any recommendations on that part? From earlier discussions I was confusing that with the freewheeling crank. I now see that there are 2 freewheeling parts. One being on the motor (replaced by the White industry ENO freewheel) and the freewheel crank, which I assume I need to get unless the freewheel crank supplied by Cyclone will work.

Currently reading up on BMS designs. This looks promising.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5416

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

No the freewheel on the motor is fine. It is the freewheel on the cranks/chain rings that need to be replaced. If you want to go with something like my setup, you won't use the freewheeling crank and chain ring that comes with the cyclone kit. You would replace that with the IPS system that I mentioned above.

[kfong]

Now it's making more sense, sorry for the confusion. Is there a place you recommend for the IPS system? I should have read the second page of the ISP brochure, it explains it well, and somehow I just overlooked that part.

Tried the website on the brochure, no luck. Tried other sites. Some are quite expensive. Really looks simple, since the freewheel part does all the work. I might just CNC an adapter and just get another outer gear hub. This seems the most likely approach now.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[GGoodrum]

I think your 650W system should be a good combo with the Nexus-8 hub. I'm using the Cyclone 1000W setup on a 20" folding bike, with a Nexus-3 speed hub, and I'm VERY happy with the performance. I was going for maximum torque, so I replaced the front 36T chainring that comes with the kit, with a 24T version, and then put a 23T single sprocket on the hub. With this it actually has way too much torque in 1st gear, and can flip somebody with less "mass" than me right off the thing. Top-end is about 30mph, which is plenty, on a folding bike. If I was doing it again, I think I'd leave the 36T stock chainring alone.

What I normally do is start in 2nd, and then quickly shift to 3rd. If I need to go up a steep hill, I downshift to 2nd. The only time I really need 1st is when starting at the base of a big hill.

Here's some pics of my setup:





Inside the bag is a 16s6p a123-based pack setup, with one of the 16-channel BMS boards that Richard and I have been working on. As I said, this has gobs of power, more than the setup it replaced, which was a front-mounted 5303, a 7240 controller modded to put out 65A and a 24s4p a123 configuration. The only downside is that it is a lot noisier than the hubmotor setups, which are very stealthy, by comparison.

-- Gary

[kfong]

Nice bike Gary. I plan to keep the original gear set, would be a shame to remove it. My plan is just to install a freewheel alongside the original hub. Some machining will be involved, but that won't be a problem. I will be making mounts that I can use to disconnect the motor so the bike can be used as a standard mountain bike if I ride with friends. This is a nice enough bike to want to do that

How has your freewheel been holding up? I assume you are using the original one from Cyclone?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[GGoodrum]

Not sure I understad what you mean, but I guess you can figure out how to make regular rear hub freewheel work up front?

So far my existing Cyclone freewheel seems to be holding up just fine, but I'm not sure what it will do if it goes bad. I'm guessing it will start making even more racket. I haven't found anywhere to get a compatible replacement.

I think to cut down the noise, I will try replacing the motor chain with a smaller pitch version (#25?), or maybe a belt drive.

-- Gary

[kfong]

I was looking forward on receiving my bike today, but looks like Bikesdirect is based out in Houston, TX. We all know what's going on down there. I checked on my tracking number and it’s been delayed. Not sure if UPS is even up and running. Hopefully, things get back to normal. From what I hear, it's as bad as Louisiana’s disaster.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

Here is the Cylcone 650W kit, it came packaged in bubble wrap. All contents have made it without damage. Here are pictures of the Cyclone motor. The motor looks very solid and well made. The Freewheel cranks are ok quality; I’ll see how long they last before I replace them with the Whites. The handle grips supplied I won't be bothering with, not even sure I will use the throttle control without some modification. The spring would be tiring to hold after a while. This might change once I actually use it. My only real complaint is the 24volt +-5% 30Amp controller. I had bought this kit for 36volts use. Not sure if they sent me the wrong controller. I’ve sent an email to Cyclone to see why.

The controller itself looks overbuilt and solid. It’s actually bigger than what I expected. I’ll have to plan an area on the bike for it.

Got a reply back from Cyclone. So it appears that I should be able to run this controller off of 36Volts. This is good news.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The controller is for 24V and 36V, that is right controller.

BR
Paco

Cylone shipping box.jpg

(87.13 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

cyclone shipping box2.jpg

(86.48 KiB) Downloaded 2 times

[GGoodrum]

That looks similar to what I got. They do a good job of packing. I see you have the same basic mounting hardware kit, which was pretty useless for my setup, as all they did was hack up the motor mounting bracket, to take the larger motor. I ended up with a bunch of useless bits that I couldn't figure out where they went. I can see they are really supposed to go with the 500/650W setup. On mine, I didn't need to use the longer axle. I was able to simply install the freewheel/sprocket on my existing one, and then add the cranks.

It appears that they use the same size box for your controller, as they did for mine. Although mine is supposed to be a 1000W setup, the controller actually pulls up to 55A (at 48V...), and the peak watts I'm seeing tops out at about 2700W. It will be interesting to see what kind of power the 650W setup actually puts out.

I'm also going to interested to hear how noisy the 650W setup ends up being. I'm guessing it will be a lot better. The 1000W motor doesn't have and internal gearbox, and it drives a second chainring with a separate chain. This makes quite a bit of racket, under load. I'm thinking of switching the motor drive to a smaller pitch chain, or maybe a belt drive.

All-in-all, I'm pretty happy with the Cyclone setup. I love how they use heavier gauge wire, than Crystalyte does, and everything literally plugs together, with unique connectors, in a true plug'n play fashion.

-- Gary

[kfong]

Hi Gary,

Yeah, the mounting hardware is very generic. I plan to machine my own once my bike arrives. I'm curious on the specs of your 1000W controller. Did it come with a lable, if so can you read off the specs. Does it mention voltage and current? Wonder if it's the same controller with better fets. If this is the case then adding new fets to mine might be an option I might need at a later time. I too will be driving a secondary chain so my setup will be noisy as well. I don't mind the noise since it alerts people as I pass them.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[GGoodrum]

Hi Gary,

Yeah, the mounting hardware is very generic. I plan to machine my own once my bike arrives. I'm curious on the specs of your 1000W controller. Did it come with a lable, if so can you read off the specs. Does it mention voltage and current? Wonder if it's the same controller with better fets. If this is the case then adding new fets to mine might be an option I might need at a later time. I too will be driving a secondary chain so my setup will be noisy as well. I don't mind the noise since it alerts people as I pass them.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

I'll have to check the label again, but I think it did say 48V, but I don't remember how much current. I think it might have been 35-40A. I know I was pleasantly surprised that it actualy topped out at 55A.

[kfong]

Woohoo, my bike arrives today. In the mean time I've been planning my battery packs. I plan to make a 10S4P setup. To keep the packs modular I will be paralleling 4 cells together, hot glued and mounted with fiberglass plates milled on my CNC. Here is a drawing of just one pack. It will be held together with a threaded rod, I should be able to set the length of the packs so it will conform to the space on my bike. I plan to either solder or have plates spot-welded to the ends for a secure connection. Each 4p pack will have a BMS board on board to monitor and balance the pack. Currently discrete components are planned but I'm starting to think a small processor would be better to cut down on the wiring. I should be able to service the batteries in groups of 4, since the 4 will be all in parallel. It would be less likely to have a bad cell if they are matched from the start. I will be matching all 40 cells in the following weeks ahead.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[GGoodrum]

Just a thought, but if you want to do 36V, you need to use 12 cells in series, not 10. Each a123 cell has a nominal voltage of 3.3V, so with a 10s setup, your pack voltage will be 33V.

I have used a similar packaging concept for a123 cells, grouping four cells together in parallel. and held together with hot glue and G10 plates, with a threaded rod down the middle:





One thing you will find is that unless you leave some portion of the spot-welded tabs on the cells, you won't be able to easily solder connections directly to the cells. What I used instead is some small nickel-plated battery springs, available from Mouser or DigiKey. This actually makes for a pretty solid connection, once the plates are compressed down.

Once the four cells are connectied in parallel, they can be considered as one larger cell. They will self-equalize to the same level. I did 4s4p "stick" packs, each with a 4-channel LVC board on the end, but doing a full BMS function would require a second board per stick.



What I did was to group these 12V/9.2Ah "stick packs" together, in various configurations. Here's a 24s4p "six-pack" arrangement that I used to use on my Mariner, before switching to the 48V-based Cyclone setup:



Oh, I did check the label on my controller, and it does say 48V and 35A:



-- Gary

[kfong]

Hi Gary. I'm doing something similar, but prefer to have it all soldered or spot welded. I've gathered all the parts to do a spot welder, but have yet to try it out. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2633. I'm concerned about corrosion or poor connections over time so I want it hard wired, this is a bike that will be going out on the trails. Lots of vibrations, so I don't want a chance of a breakdown. I plan to create carbon fiber side plates to contain the batteries within the triangle portion of the bike. The BMC will be the part that might take a while to finish. I want to reduce the wiring needed so a processor will most likely be used per cell.

I took a better look at the Cyclone motor, not happy with the plating. I have spots on it that are already flaking off. This is going to quicky rust in the trails. I'll need to paint the part. The motor itself is wider than I thought. I now understand the reason they supplied extra crank arms. These are wider to clear the motor. I'll have some work ahead to get this motor mounted. In retrospect, I would of went a different direction if I had to do it over. I think the new BMC geared hub would of been a cleaner solution.

Thanks for the picture of your controller. It clearly states a higher voltage. I'm still concerned about putting 36volts through mine. Has anyone done this to their cylone controller that has the 24volt +-5%, 30amp label. Looks like I'll have to find more cells as well.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

[kfong]

I got the Fantom, I have to say I'm blown away at the quality. I'm starting to rethink about the cyclone setup. Going with the BMC motor when the new ones are available for this bike would be real sweet. I'll have to give this some serious thought, since I have already purchase the Cyclone kit. I suppose I can install it on my older solid suspension bike. Just can't seem to want to put such a mediocre setup on a nice bike.

There is one hitch, the new BMC hubs are for an 8 speed. I assume this is for ones with 8 sprockets on the back. Mine has 9 sprockets. I don't know if it will work. Any one have an answer to this?

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

fantom.jpg

(164.32 KiB) Downloaded 521 times

fantom2.jpg

(163.82 KiB) Downloaded 510 times

[andys]

The BMC's actually run a 7 speed freewheel. Your 9 speed deraileur will work with the 7 speed freewheel. but you have to adjust the limit screws. The rear shifter can be replaced with a 7 speed if you want to, but it will work as fine too, and of course with 2 less speeds. I think in the long run you'll be happier with the super clean install of a geared hub motor over the Cyclone contraption. Even the current BMC hubs run at 48 Volts are pretty fast on a 26 inch wheel.

[kfong]

Thanks for the info, Iooks like this should of been the route to take from the beginning. Oh well, live and learn. I will put the cyclone on my fixed suspension Mongoose. It has the old style brakes, but it was a good bike when it was purchased. I'll post both conversions on this thread.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[andys]

You'll end up needing two electric bikes anyway, otherwise, how can anyone but Lance Armstrong go for a ride with you?



I came very close to getting that Fantom bike and have recommended it to a few people for an e-bike. It is one of the few FS bikes that has some room for batteries. It should have a really nice ride and good brakes, even at 25 to 30MPh speeds. My steel frame Trek 950 with a high end Nitro pro seatpost is working out pretty well for me, but full suspension is still a better way to go even for the street. I am still keeping a look out for a used FS frame that has more of the classic triangle design--just missed a couple on ebay with last minute sniper bids.

[kfong]

I rode it around last night, was very pleased with the handling. The suspension setup is a dream to use. I even like the seat that came with the bike. The ebike was an excuse to get a full suspension mountain bike, but after riding this bike. I would buy it just for normal riding. Corners great, brakes felt a little mushy but I think it just needs some adjusting, stops good if I apply a good amount of pressure. First time I've had hydraulic brakes, so I probably need to go over the manual. Extremely happy with it, already looking to add an air pump, lock and mirror, even a kickstand for around town use. Going to have a lot of fun just riding the trails for a while till the new BMC motors come out. In the mean time I will continue with the Cyclone install on my Mongoose.

Here is something I discovered, even if I wanted to use the Cyclone setup on my Fantom. The crank system is the newer hollow shafts. The Cyclone uses the older solid cranks. This seems to be another issue you would need to deal with, especially since you need to use their crank arms to clear the motor. Not even sure the systems are even interchangeable.


Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

Started working on the motor mount, here is a rough view of it. I'll have to mill out some of the aluminum to make it lighter. This will be mounted on the Mongoose but I should be able to move to any bike with a similar frame.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

The mount looks nice. One comment I have is since it's only clamped to one bike frame tube, it may rotate around that tube under load or when you hit a hard bump if you are off-road. I would suggest spanning it with a brace across the adjacent tube.

[kfong]

Good point, I will give it some thought it could act as a torque arm as well. I also have 2 mounting holes I could use that are for the water bottle. That may provide an anchor point. It all depends on how close these holes are once I have the motor mounted.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/