Custom Pack Rant.

[icecube57]

This is just an accumalation of my thoughts from the past few weeks. If someone takes it personally I do apologize.

Ive been doing alot of quotes for batteries and making shopping list breaking down what you need and informing you of the costs that you are paying and what you are paying me for people have been running away... turning ghost. Either they are in shock and awe of the price or they got the info they needed and moved on. Basically I did all the hard work and you are going to try to do things yourselves. One thing about ebikes.... when you cut corners you spend more money fixing you frock ups. If you dont have the money to do it right the first time make sure you have the money to do it over again later. I think some of you are going to bite off more than you can chew. Or some people have unrealistic price points and expectations. I even give some of you quotes from other reliable vendors and what I would make for you is way more capeable for 100 or more dollars less. I could get it even lower if HK wasnt so retarded with shipping cost. Packs may cost X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS. If its not in stock in the USA you have to order fromt he International Warehouse. Guess what there are limits to how much you can ship so sometimes you have to split your order up 2-3 times at roughly 100 dollars a pop for each order. So yeah you may see kick ass prices at HK but are you factoring in our shipping. Also stuff in the USA warehouse has been price adjusted to compensate them importing it. Its alot better than it has ben but there are still even elevated cost in the US but shipping is much cheaper. Roughly 60-70 bucks cheaper. We can even ship more in one pacage vs having to split the order so when I quote you something and its stuff I have to buy on your behalf Im not fluffing any price or making any money. Im giving the same cost that you would have to pay if you were ordering ish yourself. Im give quotes on whats avaliable at the USA warehouse. If you dont mind waiting for stuff to come off back order and can wait we can talk about making things cheaper. If you have no standards for what you buy The we can talk about cutting corners and saving money. Im selling complete solutions that work. If you want me to sell something that just works a little.. and blow up on your ass or leaves you stranded somewhere then we can do that to.. Just dont whine about it and cry on the forum cause to many of us are GD tired of trying to help you clean your asses after your frock ups. I accept my frock ups and move on. Some people lack the common sense to read and make educated decision and have realistic expectations and forcibly try to make ish work. The information has been here the whole time guys. Not only has it be repeated to death but it gets richer/better each round. I originally started doing this for a extra money when I got hurt. Things have matured to something greater Ive learned alot. Im making things better and continuously improving. But Ive also create like a new ebike generation that just stopped trying. Everything is on a platter and you being fed with a silver spoon that youve had in your mouth since birth. No research into ebikes. Just jumped in head first into what you thought was a pool but what you really saw was some awesome sidewalk art.No we have to help you up and bad decisions into a positive one. Also some people still have the misconception that they can get a kickass battery like I sold on the forum a week or so ago for 550 bucks completed. That pack was sold at a loss. One thing i learned. Time and effort you put into things... has no value along with depreciation. As much as i try to get the most out of selling things on here the most you are going to get is 80% of the at cost value and shipping if its in pristine condition. I got the at cost price of the pack f.. the shipping i paid. f the work put into the pack. Sorry boo hoo but there are some cost that cant be recouped. So when you miss a deal kick yourself in the a... but know you are coming out much better than the person selling it. A little piece of me died selling the pack. Im glad its gone to an owner than I feel will get good use and respect my work bu Try buying a completely assembled pack of the same size you are paying way more nearly double or more and got less. If you were to have bought a 72v 20AH ping you would have spend well over a grand for the pack. It would be heavy as frock like 32+ pound lbs.You would have been limited to 40-60A discharge. A slow ass charger. Not to mention the custom solution trying to protect it some how. It would be big and bulky. My packs were hard case pack that wer 23$ a piece.. best fcking deal ever. I save nearly 2-300 dollars vs using 6s turnigy or zippy packs. Get your mind right guys. But yet i quote something not exactly the best deal ever but a better deal than the premade solutions that is cheaper and better in nearly all aspects... And for me to charge minimum wage for the hour or two to cycle through you precious packs to make sure you get what you paid for and its in peak prime condition. How dare I try to go the extra mile. Thats where people are gonna cut cost when they try to do it themselves. They are going to buy packs not cycle them .. throw some shit together .. have a bad cell in the pack and guess what they are gonna cry that something is wrong with their battery... they dont have the proper instruments to revive or salvage the cell and then you get some veterans the say I told you so.. Im sitting with my arms folded reading some of this mess SMDH and to think that its absured for me to wanna charge labor to sift and cycle through your packs so I can have peace of mind about you getting a WORKING product....(sic) you literally no limits on discharge.. Atleast no limit that you will hit with an ebike So I know for a fact that my price scale isnt off. Im flexible on my quotes guys. I even let you know what are hard costs and what you can save money on. I do to much to get the silent middle finger. Atleast let me know if my quote is to high or give me the courtesy thank you for your time Im going to pass. I think im just going to throw just a number out there take it or leave it ... some of you arent even entertaing my options to find cheaper alternatives ... thats it for now. Its a rant but please respond if you think im out of line for thinking this way.

 

[DAND214]

icecube57
Very well put.

I know what you go thru testing and building. takes time, more than most out there know.

I know you do a great job, as I have been told by others that have delt with you.

As you said, most have no idea what it should cost for a GOOD battery. I know I learned the hard way as you said.

Dan

 

[amigafan2003]

Maybe you should reply with a ball park figure first and see if they still want you to go ahead with a detailed quote.

I know I balked at the cost of the harness you quoted me, but I knew what I wanted and that your product met those needs. Even having said that though, it was a lot of money and took a big commitment from me to go ahead with the order.

I work in the IT procurment sector - I reckon only 5% of our quotes turn into purchases.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

A big problem is that people often seriously underestimate the time, and hence cost, involved in making a custom product like this.

Controllers are a good example. Many know that you can buy basic controllers for a very low price - the last batch of 6 FET boards (no FETs fitted) that I bought cost me around $20 each including shipping, duties, taxes etc. It takes me around a couple of hours to assemble, programme and test one of these, plus the cost of FETs, decent wire, connectors etc. If I were to start assembling them as a business, then I'd have to sell them at around $75 or so to make it worthwhile, and most would baulk at this price because they could buy a controller direct from China (albeit with unknown quality components and no custom programming) for less than half the price.

It's one reason I normally refuse to get involved in building stuff for people, the other being that inevitably I'd have to deal with the hassle of people blowing stuff up and sending it back to be fixed for free.

 

[litespeed]

I'm a home builder and now back into remodeling because of the times and I totally feel your pain. I just never had a place to state what you just said.

Tom

 

[dogman dan]

Ran into the same shit when I made southwestern rustic furniture. I had stock pieces all jigged up in the shop so I could turn out basic items in quantity and make decent money. Displaying that stuff, it never sold. Instead somebody would commision something custom. Visits to the house to measure, then deliver ( which I did charge extra for), production going slow because I couldn't just grab pre worked stock pieces to assemble. In the end, just making a piece one inch different in dimensions would eat my profits alive.

My best year, my annual income was $3500 after expenses, for a 6 day work week. Finally I raised prices to what I could live on, and stopped selling anything at all.

 

[icecube57]

I agree with you Jeremy. Like they say time is money. Even though i would have a very capeable discharge setup that could probably discharge pack with in 10-15 minutes. If I didnt have this setup it would take about 2 1/2 hour per pack to balance charge discharge and charge a pack. Lets say someone had a 9 6s packs in their pack. It would 22.5 hours to check all these packs. Im not even charging 10 an hour but 10 a pack so im paying myself $4 an hour to do the dirty work of checking packs to make sure you have somethings fully verified capacity. It is somewhat automated but it still has to be watched just incase the lipo decides it wants to become firestarter and burn my bench down. Im sure ping and cellman has to have some cell verification but they are a premium price and i still can beat their price with just as much if not more QC.

Harnesses prices are priced on how much time its going to take and the cost of materials. The materials is nothing. The labor is what you are paying for. 10-15$ an hour in labor. If you dont thing it takes time to solder bullets and crimps stuff think how long it would take if you didnt have the proper tools.I keep meaning to do a time lapse where i sit down and do a complete harness. Then you would see everything is maid to order from scratch no cutting corners. Think how much it would cost to even buy half assed tools to try and pull off the job. Ive seen some stuff on the forum where I really am taken back . Everything from lamp cord to wing nuts to shit load of elecctrical tape.Ive been there done that got the tshirt. Learned my lesson and moved on. I do appreciate the customers that have followed through and gave me business. Some are very excited and happy with their order. Im sure some are unsatified. Im only as good as the info and pictures you give me. If you dont give me much to go on im going to spit out something cookie cutter and let you make it work. Some people think i ask to many questions. Sometimes its the details that make the product that much more better and lets things fit like a glove.

Lyen is a good example of someone that has a base model product. He gives you a price. Its a premium price. You could go to keywin on ebay and get it 50 bucks cheaper. Lyen sells his base products near at cost. He makes his money off the add ons and upgrades. Also when something is time consuming you dont make money off of volume but the labor that adds the value to a product. Some people act new and say hey this cost x amount of dollars. Did you include shipping? One formula that someone taught me is you charge 1.5 times the actual material cost this accounts for shipping and variation in prices if you have to order from different vendors. I have my vendor of choice EPBuddy but I do occasionalIy order from Progressive RC or 3dxhobbies or HK for certain supplies Each has their strong points and some of them have a great spread on the price for the same item. I stocked my war chest this week with 5.5 and 4mm bullets. There is no cheap spot to order 5.5 without getting bent over and paying a premium price for them like almost 8 for 4 pair... WTF. Because I needed them quick the bullets cost me about 35 for 70 sets of 5.5 and 4mm but i spent another 35 in shipping to get i here in 3 days from HK. HK is cheap but you pay for it in shipping its still cheap but before you do your cost comparison factor in the cost to get it to your house... if you were buying things. I had to correct a potential buyer once that calculated cost and told me how much it should cost and i replied it does cost that much but did you put it in the cart and calculate the shipping...Oh whats that... yeah your quote just god bigger by 1/3. Welcome to reality.

I like agnisums a123 kits and at 20-25 dollars a cell for the a123 packs and thos lovely boards it cant be beat but people still forget to factor in how are you going to cycle and sort through the packs. If we took hobby kings word for everything that got shipped out we would have house and bike fires every where. Same thing for a123. You got a 20AH pack but still your capacity may rage from 18AH to 20AH. It would be nice to have a SN and some cell data on the cells. Thats something visual I can give you. Im not downing a123s bucks some people lack the equipment to properly tackle a projectly like that. Some people can justify the cost of an Icharger. Mines is worth every penny ive revived dead car batteries. Ive jumped cars. I charge and discharge lipo. I graph stuff. Ive calibrated shunts on controllers. Ive used is as a variable power supply for other stuff. a123 cells are worthless until they properly checked this goes for any cell.

The gent that bought my pack may go behind me to check my work but I labeled every pack in the pack I sold with the capacity and the weakest cell in the pack. That type of information could go a long way for someone that does keep an eye out on their packs. They can quickly glance oh cell # 3 is weak on this pack. Ill check on it periodically to make sure it stays in line. I did individual pack test and verified capacity and then I tested the packs in parallel to double check my findings. You know how long it takes to discharge a 20AH pack... my icharger was giving me the middle finger so hard....thats dedication to making sure you have nothing but the best.... but all this takes time and time is money. You are considering me for a reason. Either you can pull it off with the tools and eq you have or your time is very valueable to where you are in position to where you can financially pay someone to do your dirty work.

Some people have told me to pre assemble and and I can make harnesses faster and cheaper. I sit on so much materials its not even funny. Nearly every order gets its own order of fresh materials. I sat on 3-400 in materials once took me like two months to break even and start making money. That was at the start of the business where i wasnt putting a good value on my labor and was literally working for free... Small business look good when they have capital for show but if you not moving it.. its just an eye sore. Plainly put I cant eat wire and connectors. I would rather have money in my pocket and dinner on my table vs sitting on materials waiting for an order that may or man not come.Thats why I dont pre assemble or sit on materials. Everything is ordered to be made and made to order.

 

[Alastor]

I feel you all 100 % mates.For me this forum is like a haven of information of thing to learn and save a lot in the process.Don't get disappointed because people just don't appreciate friendly and helpful people , there are a lot in here that appreciate what you are all doing.In order to invest so much time in doing something even if you do it to make a living , it has to make you feel happy and i know that a lot of people here are just getting the gibe gibies when they get something new to assemble or play with.

I will try to explain to all of you how terribly things are working here in Greece.People that get involved in something that few people know they tend to behave like gurus they have the freaking attitude , they think they know it all and simple just don't share knowledge or experience just to ensure that only fewer people will know how-to in order to monopolize the market.They try to fool you up and just sell you what they have in stock without caring of your needs.

From my customers experience there are two types of people the ones that know want they want and are ready to pay up for the full cost in order to get the right solution.And there is the second category that they think they are smarter than everyone else and because they are so well connected they will eventually got fooled by someone selling a cheaper not working solution and spend a lot more to achieve less.

And to get to the pack thing with all of your helped me make a nice 44v10ah for like 250$ with little work from my part.I am having a light product that works out for me excellent.In order to get this pack here i should pay like 400$ and in order to get a new Golden motor 48V10Ah in aluminum case pack with a crappy bms 15/30A you have to pay up 600 euros close to 780 dollars!!!!!!Crazy isn't it !!!!!!To get a 48v20ah lifepo4 with decent(?) bms 50/100A with crappy cells that the company they sell em don't even have the pecs !!!!and they are asking to pay 922 euros or 1200 dollars this pack weights like 20kilos and have a crappy charger as well.(it also looks terrible low quality staff)

Sharing knowledge and experience in the other hand can help others a lot and why not making the hole market a better place because if all people had the knowledge all this bad professionals should had no space in a market .Unfortunately now they are thriving.So thanks again and i hope my experience help to sweat the bitterness you might felling.

Sorry for the bad English

 

[docnjoj]

The harness you made for my wifes trike and the Fatpacks is simply perfect. It continues to be reliable as well as easy to connect. Keep up the great work!
otherDoc

 

[ohzee]

Yea I always do a lot of things for people as I like to help people out. All I ever want in return is a "thanks"
and I am perfectly happy with that. helping someone move , fixing something, giving a little extra for a job
well done etc.. It really just makes me sad...

 

[icecube57]

Anyone ever think how the people out doing sales pitches in various places put so much effort into the trying to make the sale and even dropping incentives like a free product or a free trial and its totally worth it to listen to the spill for the freebie but its an ego hit everytime when their livelyhood is dependent on sales probably

A time share comes to mind. I had a 4 day 3 night hotel stay once for at a greatly reduced rate if i listen for like 2 hours to a spill on why i should join their club...I personally felt bad. Cause I had no intent to follow through.

 

[mvly]

Do what cellman do. Just give them a doc/excel to fill out and it will give them a preliminary cost estimate. These thing happens all the time. But if I can help someone out to build an ebike, it's all the more better to get one car off the road and it's totally worth my 30 minutes explaining things.

For me, it's one of those thing where I would do it anyways even if no one is paying me. : )

But I understand not everyone has this luxury like I do.

 

[docnjoj]

Hey IC57
You could do what Grin and Ping do and provide your excellent product at a price that you can afford to do business with. Do give an estimate first, of course since you are providing a custom service. You design, build and provide great aftercare for the client. This stratagy seems to work for them, and they are not the cheapest in the business. Also you might consider approaching electric bike manufacturers. A lot of the ready to ride bikes I have seen have atrocious wiring!
otherDoc

 

[icecube57]

I like the idea of the calculator. I think I may pull open office up and see if I can make a spread sheet.

 

[Punx0r]

Post clear guide/example prices and make them worth your while. Timewasters will be deterred, serious buyers will come through. You may do less work, but make similar profit.

Do you really want to do it, though? From your post it sounds like you're not happy doing it and hate your customers. It that's how things are perhaps it'd be better to just knock it on the head and avoid the stress...

 

[MattyCiii]

I respect the work you do and hope those who have disappeared don't drive you away from the work. Soldering pigtails is a pain in the a$$, and connectors are only really cheap if bought by the hundred or more. A heavy gage crimper isn't cheap. NOObs don't get this. And the nasty pop and flash one gets from an 8ga cold joint solder connection to a 4mm bullet... instant heart attack!

Maybe you can give a rough (like - +/- 10%, something off the top of your head) estimate, then if the buyer wants to proceed you get something like a $50 advance. This is to work up the details, and something you'll apply to the job if they go forward. Kinda like if you have an electrician come in and do a detailed workup on wiring in an old house, they'll charge for the estimate, but in general if you pick that electrician he'll apply the cost of the estimate to the total job cost (since the survey is an integral part of the job).

Best wishes, Matt C

 

[amberwolf]

I agree with the various suggestions above; the problems in doing stuff like this are numerous, and unappreciated.


I no longer do computer repair work because of the problems involved with that--most customers dont' think it's worth more than a few dollars to fix problesm that they themselves created (viruses/etc from surfing porn sites or whatever, usually, or lost data because they never bothered to back it up), when those problems take hours or days to deal with. More than a few people outright refused to pay me for the work, and others wouldn't pay the full agreed amount, even though I did everything agreed upon (or more), law enforcement advised I could sue but they couldn't do anything for me directly. Couldn't afford to sue, so I just lost out instead. Some people just said there's no way doing just a little of this and that could be worth even minimum wage money, or other similar retorts. After enough of these incidents, I gave up. I tried requiring advance payment, at least half, but few would do that, even the honest ones that did pay in full at the end. I don't even do computer work for most of my friends now, except for very specific exceptions.

Same thing for other fix-it work for all sorts of other things, so I don't do very much of it at all, and only for people I trust. (even then I get burned now and then).

So, I know how you feel.

 

[Tommy L]

I've seen pics of your "Quality" work.

Nice work ICECUBE57!

I've watched your videos..... Great work there too!

I've been studying LiFePO4 for two years now. Using Headways, making better busbars figuring out wiring and charging methods.
Purchasing packs and figuring out best charging methods and wiring. Buying different connectors and wiring.

and the common thing..... is the connectors and wiring! lol

I started a business www.rawvelocity.com with real business/tax numbers.
Just ask Methods..... 95% answering emails and 5% sales
and most want something for nothing.....

Your rant was awesome. I appreciate you and your work. I'm thinking of going from LiFePO4 to LiCo. When I do,
I will probably purchase from you! And once I make my purchase, I will post it LOUDLY! :wink:

Tommy L sends.... \\m// Rocking onward every single day! \\m//

 

[icecube57]

Tell methods has an order from a guy that I talked to last night and refered to him he didnt respond to the guy originally. Its a hunk of money but he needs to respond to him lol. There needs to be an inner circle of references. I dont mind passing the buck to someone thats more experienced or has a better product that I would do. I do need to get legit instead of freelance but the volume isnt really there to truely merit the hassle except for a tax write off.

 

[Tommy L]

Tell methods has an order from a guy that I talked to last night and refered to him he didnt respond to the guy originally. Its a hunk of money but he needs to respond to him lol. There needs to be an inner circle of references. I dont mind passing the buck to someone thats more experienced or has a better product that I would do. I do need to get legit instead of freelance but the volume isnt really there to truely merit the hassle except for a tax write off.

I can "in box" or email him as anyone can, so please do. I don't think I'll reach him any sooner lol

If just for the tax right off, go for it. Maybe something will become of it. I'm doing my own thing with:

www.rawvelocity.com

Motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, lawn tractors or ebike batteries available in the 13v variety either 6.9ah or 9.2ah.

I'm using a set up of these for my daily commuter. I run 6 of these in series for around 76.8v nominal / 9.2ah for 700 watt/hours.
Plenty for my 6mile/10km commute. I use around 200 w/h each way. I charge at work too lol. This pack should last 20 years @ 30% DOD

I've got some business too. I enjoy the local business where I can meet people and explain how great technology is slowly coming along.... lol

Be happy Icecube57! People will soon learn about your great quality!

Tommy L sends..... \\m//

 

[agniusm]

I agree that there are many time wasters and it is not worth the hassle but this is just part of doing business. Calculator is good and will save you time, i am doing this myself with my kits i introduced here. At home we have small side income with b&b. Its very basic but we charge 10USD ppn. There are many who tries to negotiate the price (to what i wander, 1? ) So we send those to look elsewhere and soon they comeback Others we have saying that there is no TV and no separate bathroom and so on but no one thinks how much it costs to build that and when you will get your moneys back. So, i think its just the nature of some people and yo have to be strict.