Regen Braking with a Brushed Motor and Lead Acid Batteries

jetpackjbd

100 W
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Oct 31, 2023
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Lithia, Florida
Hello everyone! I’ve finally installed a new motor on my BladeZ XTR SE that I bought for $20 after the motor caught fire. It’s fun in mostly stock form, however my two biggest issues with it are range and speed. It doesn’t coast very well as it has a chain driven motor without a freewheel. Since it’s already driving the motor, I’d like to add some sort of basic regen to it to improve range a teeny bit (range is about 14 miles if you fully discharge it). I’m thinking I could add a diode from the power leads directly to the battery, however that would charge them when throttle is applied as well which might take away more power than it gains. Any ideas?
 
You won't get any regen using a diode unless your downhill speed is faster than the flat ground speed. This will happen anyway even without a diode as there is already a diode in the controller. If you want "real" regen, you need a controller that does this. There are some out there for brushed motors, but they are somewhat expensive and probably quite large.

You would probably get more range by adding a freewheel clutch so it can coast without the motor turning.

Upgrading the battery from lead-acid to lithium would likely give you a much better range increase and the battery will last longer. Lead-acid batteries wear out very quickly and are heavy. This is probably the best upgrade for a scooter like that.

If you have a big budget, you could upgrade the motor to a brushless and get a brushless controller that does regen.
 
4QD.co.uk makes relatively small brushed controllers (like the 4QD itself) that support regen. I don't recall if the 2QD (even smaller) will do regen as well. They won't be cheap controllers, though.

As Fechter notes, a freewheel will help; adding this could be mechanically complex depending on your system's specific design. If the wheel doesn't have a place for a typical one, but the motor shaft is a common type, you can probably get a sprag clutch that will mount to it that you can then mount your output sprocket to (or even a prebuilt sprocket/sprag (sprague, roller) clutch unit).

And also as he notes, if you really want to increase the range, simply changing from SLA to a good-quality Li-Ion pack that's made of new, matched, brand name (samsung, LG, etc) cells intended for high discharge rates (unlike the stuff that cheap batteries are made from), that uses a quality common-port BMS (like JBD), will do much more than regen could.

Regen *might* get you a couple of percent of your power usage back over a ride, but since the charge or discharge efficiency of SLA isn't that great, you don't even really get that much.

SLA might get, at best, half the capacity it states on the label for EV use--usually less than that, and if it's not kept charged all the time it will degrade (sulfate). Lithium will give nearly the full capacity, and lasts longer the less time it's fully charged.
 
4QD.co.uk makes relatively small brushed controllers (like the 4QD itself) that support regen. I don't recall if the 2QD (even smaller) will do regen as well. They won't be cheap controllers, though.

As Fechter notes, a freewheel will help; adding this could be mechanically complex depending on your system's specific design. If the wheel doesn't have a place for a typical one, but the motor shaft is a common type, you can probably get a sprag clutch that will mount to it that you can then mount your output sprocket to (or even a prebuilt sprocket/sprag (sprague, roller) clutch unit).

And also as he notes, if you really want to increase the range, simply changing from SLA to a good-quality Li-Ion pack that's made of new, matched, brand name (samsung, LG, etc) cells intended for high discharge rates (unlike the stuff that cheap batteries are made from), that uses a quality common-port BMS (like JBD), will do much more than regen could.

Regen *might* get you a couple of percent of your power usage back over a ride, but since the charge or discharge efficiency of SLA isn't that great, you don't even really get that much.

SLA might get, at best, half the capacity it states on the label for EV use--usually less than that, and if it's not kept charged all the time it will degrade (sulfate). Lithium will give nearly the full capacity, and lasts longer the less time it's fully charged.
Thanks to both of you for the ideas! I’ve considered lithium, brushless, and a freewheel before. Unfortunately, retrofit lithium packs are either outside my price range or have reviews saying they failed within a few months. I could get a more custom made pack, but I know I’m never seeing that money back. I paid $20 for this scooter and have spent about $200 in parts, it’s currently barely worth $200 if I tried to sell it. SLA does suck, but I appreciate their cost (even if I have to buy new batteries every year or so) and simplicity.
As for brushless motors, that’s currently out of the question. I like the noise, simplicity, and maintenance of a brushed motor. It’s stupid but it’s what I want from a scooter.
I’d like to try a freewheel, but I couldn’t find any available for my motor and chain combination. I could try to get a new rear wheel with a different sprocket (I believe mine isn’t standard) but I worry it would end up incompatible and I’d spend more money to make it work. If anyone has seen a 15+ tooth dual D-bore freewheel sprocket that would be amazing, but it sounds a bit too specific. I would like the ability to have regen, or at least motor-braking as the mechanical brakes aren’t great and new brake pads are $50 for old stock ones.
I will consider a different motor controller, partially because this one is a bit iffy at times though.
If you could point me towards a 24v lithium pack with at least 10ah and 30amps continuous current, that would be great! Thanks again!
 
you might consider a mobility scooter controller such as the old curtis brand, you would have to research how to wire it up bu6 they have regen and high current for 24v
 
you might consider a mobility scooter controller such as the old curtis brand, you would have to research how to wire it up bu6 they have regen and high current for 24v
Ooh, good to know! There’s a guy in my town who sells old mobility scooter parts, I’ll have to check it out at some point!
 
How I'd do that is to use a switch, relay, or SSR on the power leads, that shunts the motor leads to an adjustable step-up converter (to increase BEMF voltage to maximum battery voltage). Poke the switch and you get regen (in principle).
 
That’s lateral thinking.

Regarding Curtis … have you seen the price of their programmers?
 
If you go for their ancient golfcart controllers they don't even have programming, should be fairly cheap...but they're huge. ;)

A pic of the old 1204 I used on CrazyBike2 with the powerchair motor (also in the pic) run by SLA (also in the pic)
1698898170103.png
The guts
1698898840061.png

Otmar of CafeElectric modded a 1221 to have regen


And the bare board of the much smaller 2QD I hacked to an insufficient heatsink (including the blown FET)
1698898213773.png
It fit in the little project box under the edge of the seat on the left side in this pic of the whole bike
1698898390179.png
 
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It’s huge alright. “Solid” might be the complimentary way of phrasing that.

It ought to fetch more than the programmable ones - they seem to be just about given away, presumably because no-one can afford the programmers.

(I chuckle every time I see your bike. There’s always something that catches my eye that I hadn’t noticed before).
 
presumably because no-one can afford the programmers.
The controllers are huge too big for a ebike and anything smaller than a 400cc moto conversion

After I bought a Curtis 1311 handheld programmer I found these :(
DIY programing cable
Software to program is available on ebay for $50 usd Curtis® Model 1314-4402 OEM Level PC Programming Station Software - Version Curtis® Model 1314-4402 OEM Level PC Programming Station Software - Version 4 | eBay and free if you look hard enough.
Later floyd
 
Great info, cheers Floyd.

And an enjoyable video to boot, though I was hoping the cat would cause some mischief.

(You might be out of pocket half a grand, but that’s a small price to pay for being able to hack hire carts for top speed and complete rounds of golf in half the time.)
 
How I'd do that is to use a switch, relay, or SSR on the power leads, that shunts the motor leads to an adjustable step-up converter (to increase BEMF voltage to maximum battery voltage). Poke the switch and you get regen (in principle).
I was thinking of something like that too, however I forgot that I’d need a step up converter. It’s already got a brake switch that’s not being used which could turn on a relay for a regen switch. Been looking for a janky solution like this!
 
I was thinking of something like that too, however I forgot that I’d need a step up converter. It’s already got a brake switch that’s not being used which could turn on a relay for a regen switch. Been looking for a janky solution like this!
This kind of janky solution is just so much easier because of the brushed DC motor. The fact that SLA batteries usually don't need charge current limiting doesn't hurt either.

To do it with a brushless 3-wire motor you'd need to add a 3 phase rectifier and maybe some smoothing capacitors too.
 
If you go for their ancient golfcart controllers they don't even have programming, should be fairly cheap...but they're huge. ;)

A pic of the old 1204 I used on CrazyBike2 with the powerchair motor (also in the pic) run by SLA (also in the pic)
View attachment 342356
The guts
View attachment 342359

Otmar of CafeElectric modded a 1221 to have regen


And the bare board of the much smaller 2QD I hacked to an insufficient heatsink (including the blown FET)
View attachment 342357
It fit in the little project box under the edge of the seat on the left side in this pic of the whole bike
View attachment 342358
Size isn’t a huge factor for me; I think I might make a battery trailer at some point to get more than 12 miles of range so I could fit a bigger controller
 
This kind of janky solution is just so much easier because of the brushed DC motor. The fact that SLA batteries usually don't need charge current limiting doesn't hurt either.

To do it with a brushless 3-wire motor you'd need to add a 3 phase rectifier and maybe some smoothing capacitors too.
Yeah I agree, much easier. That said it’s more common on cheap brushless controllers to find regen than on brushed controllers.
If I wanted to go even lazier, I’d have diodes going to a separate 12v battery with a resistor and a switch. Might kill the battery quicker but it would give me some regen. I’ve considered adding a third battery that’s enabled by a momentary contact button so that I can briefly overvolt the motor like a nitrous valve. Wouldn’t have to get a new charger if the third battery is charged only by regen.
 
I'm no expert on brushed controllers, but some that have regen braking they dont put the regen back into the batteries, but put the current/voltage back through the motor that is radiated away as heat via the windings.
I dont know enough to say how to identify different regen type controllers but its something to be aware of, you might hook up a controller and find it does regen but the motor gets hot.........that would be one clue.
Amberwolf: what year was that bike project? I can see you put a hell of alot of effort into it.
 
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